200 réponses à ce sujet

[VampireSoap]

Ahglock wrote...

Hathur wrote...

i'm not a person of faith (agnostic by definition i suppose).. but if you are a person of faith, doesn't it make sense to you that your deity gave you (us, humans) intelligence with the ability to improve our way of life? why would your god create a species intelligent enough to improve themselves through technology if he / she / it didn't want you to do have the option to do it?

seems kinda silly to me to think that a god would make us smart enough to improve ourselves with medicine and technology and then forbid us from doing it.

People are born with a lot of traits some positive some negaive the purpose of a lot of religions is to guide you down a path toward what they see as positive traits.  You could just as easily say if you are a person of faith doesn't it make sense to you that your deity gave you the ability to kill and remove those who damge your life?  Why would your god give you this murderous rage if he didn't want to you kill.  Intelligence is really no different.  Being born with it is great, what you use it for is where the faith guides you.  Do you use it to create weapons, plant crops, plan a heist?  Where modifying yourself falls would likely be different in each religion.   

Except that there is no such thing as God. All religious scriptures contradict modern science. It's just PEOPLE who are telling you what to do all along, and they are not "guiding" you, they are manipulating you. And faith is the gullibility that makes you a subject of manipulation.

Modifié par VampireSoap, 26 mai 2012 - 02:53 .

[Volus Warlord]

VampireSoap wrote...

Except that there is no such thing as God. All religious scriptures contradict modern science. It's just PEOPLE who are telling you what to do all along, and they are not "guiding" you, they are manipulating you. And faith is the gullibility that makes you a subject of manipulation.

Man, you're funny. 

[DarkDragon777]

VampireSoap wrote...

Except that there is no such thing as God. All religious scriptures contradict modern science. It's just PEOPLE who are telling you what to do all along, and they are not "guiding" you, they are manipulating you. And faith is the gullibility that makes you a subject of manipulation.

I'd ask for your reasoning, but it probably doesn't exist.

[The Edge]

First of all, no; putting religion in a sci-fi setting, when done in a smart way, can allow for deeper insight and possibly new personal discoveries.

With that said, I'm not sure if this forum, or the rest of the internet for that matter, is a good place to discuss this aspect. People can't seem to state opinion without bashing others and declaring themselves as truly "enlightened".

Sad to say that this will PROBABLY be locked soon...

[DeathScepter]

DarkDragon777 wrote...

VampireSoap wrote...

Except that there is no such thing as God. All religious scriptures contradict modern science. It's just PEOPLE who are telling you what to do all along, and they are not "guiding" you, they are manipulating you. And faith is the gullibility that makes you a subject of manipulation.

I'd ask for your reasoning, but it probably doesn't exist.

He won't give it due to his ego and lack of knowledge.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

No.

[Volus Warlord]

Cmon, let's make an attempt to put this back on topic..

Religion and sci-fi..

Hmm.. well, I thought the mentionings of a religion in ME2 were a damn joke.. and I don't believe I saw any in ME3. None that stuck with me, anyway.

So.. if you want your sci-fi to have religion as an element with all the depth that brings.. don't go half baked.. it's not even worth the time if you don't do a decent job.

Like anything else it's threading the needle.. too little and it's so irrelevant as to not be worth mentioning, too much and it can just be stupid. And it's not like other studios haven't done this before, both in video games and other media, so it'd be premature to call it impossible.

But that being said, I can't see Bioware ever making a game where a religion is a serious plot element. It's just not in their MO.

[The Edge]

Volus Warlord wrote...

Cmon, let's make an attempt to put this back on topic..

Religion and sci-fi..

Hmm.. well, I thought the mentionings of a religion in ME2 were a damn joke.. and I don't believe I saw any in ME3. None that stuck with me, anyway.

So.. if you want your sci-fi to have religion as an element with all the depth that brings.. don't go half baked.. it's not even worth the time if you don't do a decent job.

Like anything else it's threading the needle.. too little and it's so irrelevant as to not be worth mentioning, too much and it can just be stupid. And it's not like other studios haven't done this before, both in video games and other media, so it'd be premature to call it impossible.

But that being said, I can't see Bioware ever making a game where a religion is a serious plot element. It's just not in their MO.

Well, I suppose the Dragon Age universe is as close as Bioware has gotten to religious themes, with the templars and all. As a plot element, DA2 seemed to feature it vaguely, but more in terms of conflict with the "church" body rather than the beliefs (from what I remember).

With that said, I suppose that this is as far as it should really go. There is a fine line between analyzing religion in a foreign setting (whether fantasy or sci-fi) and simply criticizing it.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Volus Warlord wrote...

Cmon, let's make an attempt to put this back on topic..

Religion and sci-fi..

Hmm.. well, I thought the mentionings of a religion in ME2 were a damn joke.. and I don't believe I saw any in ME3. None that stuck with me, anyway.

So.. if you want your sci-fi to have religion as an element with all the depth that brings.. don't go half baked.. it's not even worth the time if you don't do a decent job.

Like anything else it's threading the needle.. too little and it's so irrelevant as to not be worth mentioning, too much and it can just be stupid. And it's not like other studios haven't done this before, both in video games and other media, so it'd be premature to call it impossible.

But that being said, I can't see Bioware ever making a game where a religion is a serious plot element. It's just not in their MO.

I would prefer to see a well organized Human religion, The Turian or Salarian one ... also a satanic/chaotic religion could be interesting (to purge!)

[VampireSoap]

DarkDragon777 wrote...

VampireSoap wrote...

Except that there is no such thing as God. All religious scriptures contradict modern science. It's just PEOPLE who are telling you what to do all along, and they are not "guiding" you, they are manipulating you. And faith is the gullibility that makes you a subject of manipulation.

I'd ask for your reasoning, but it probably doesn't exist.

Well, fooling people with fantasy stories like Adam&Eve or Jonan&Whale is not manipulating? Getting fooled by such silly stories is not a strong indication of gullible thinking? Go on, believe whatever crazy myths you like. Just remember, 93% of the scientists in the National Academy of Sciences (NAS) are atheists or agnostics.

http://www.stephenja...ws/file002.html

And I never believe the nonsense about how religions starting to accommodate evolution...If we keep on knowing more and more about the natural world by using the scientific method, one day religion is going to have nowhere to hide. Religion is just the oldest hoax on earth, wake up, people. Bioware did a very good job NOT including religion in their games.

Modifié par VampireSoap, 26 mai 2012 - 04:01 .

[Xeranx]

 For those who are interested in moving this discussion to another realm, this is not the place for it.  This discussion is about religion in science fiction and not real world religions.

Kindly take your discussions to forums that allow you to have those discussions.  Thanks.

Modifié par Xeranx, 26 mai 2012 - 04:14 .

[o Ventus]

DarkDragon777 wrote...

VampireSoap wrote...

Except that there is no such thing as God. All religious scriptures contradict modern science. It's just PEOPLE who are telling you what to do all along, and they are not "guiding" you, they are manipulating you. And faith is the gullibility that makes you a subject of manipulation.

I'd ask for your reasoning, but it probably doesn't exist.

I'll only say this (Focusing on Christianity).

You really think there's a benevolent, loving being up there who just sits and watches while innocents get slaughtered daily in 3rd world countries, solely because of their socioeconomic status? Or the thousands of people that have never committed a crime in their life, only to fall victim to some murderer or rapist?

Never mind all of the logical fallacies and missteps in the Bible, or the fact that pretty much every religion seems to discount the others as myth, only self promoting their own beliefs. 

I don't hate religion. I think it's a good thing in the sense that it can give people hope when they need it most, but I think it's silly (borderline stupid) to believe in an actual deity and pretend they give a damn about you. 

Fun fact: More people have been killed due to religious beliefs (or disbeliefs) than have been killed due to political, civil, or racial differences.

Modifié par o Ventus, 26 mai 2012 - 04:14 .

[Han Shot First]

o Ventus wrote...

DarkDragon777 wrote...

VampireSoap wrote...

Except that there is no such thing as God. All religious scriptures contradict modern science. It's just PEOPLE who are telling you what to do all along, and they are not "guiding" you, they are manipulating you. And faith is the gullibility that makes you a subject of manipulation.

I'd ask for your reasoning, but it probably doesn't exist.

I'll only say this (Focusing on Christianity).

You really think there's a benevolent, loving being up there who just sits and watches while innocents get slaughtered daily in 3rd world countries, solely because of their socioeconomic status? Or the thousands of people that have never committed a crime in their life, only to fall victim to some murderer or rapist?

Let's assume for a moment that God and heaven exists. Why would that being feel a need to prevent, say some guy getting stabbed to death on a street corner? While that death may be a horribly tragic thing from our point of view, would God view it the same way? After all we'd be dealing with an alien intelligence, and expecting God to view death in the same way as we do is anthropomorphizing him, or her, or it. Furthermore if death isn't the end of existence, it is likely any creator would just view death as just another stage of life, much like a caterpillar entering a cocoon and emerging a butterfly. If the soul exists and is eternal, why fear death? It would likely view our fear or the mourning of people who have died, as irrational and based on ignorance.

To be clear, I'm an agnostic. I just find the 'horrible things happen on Earth every day' argument against the existence of a deity or deities as one of the weaker ones.

Fun fact: More people have been killed due to religious beliefs (or disbeliefs) than have been killed due to political, civil, or racial differences.

That isn't really true. The two most destructive conflicts in all of human history, WW1 and WW2, were not in any way motivated by religion. Neither were the Napoleonic Wars, which IIRC is third on the list.

Even so-called religious wars often had little to actually do with religion in practice. Take for example the Crusades. Most of the knights and Lords who signed up to go fight the 'infidel,' didn't give a toss about religion. They were usually poor knights without lands of their own, or younger sons of noble lords who weren't due to inherit lands and title. For the most part they were motivated more by the possibility of loot and land than piety.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 26 mai 2012 - 04:33 .

[Chrome tater tot]

It wouldn't really matter. No matter how much science disproves religious concepts, the nuts will always say that religion had always accommodated the idea of X,Y, or Z and people were just misinterpreting the fine print in their bibles or what have you.

As far as stagnating advancements like synthetic upgrades, FTL travel, etc. it's just a war of attrition that religion will eventually lose. It just doesn't have enough backing behind it.

So basically, religion could very well and easily play into sci-fi media.

Modifié par Chrome tater tot, 26 mai 2012 - 04:38 .

[VampireSoap]

Han Shot First wrote...

Let's assume for a moment that God and heaven exists. Why would that being feel a need to prevent, say some guy getting stabbed to death on a street corner? While that death may be a horribly tragic thing from our point of view, would God view it the same way?

First of all, there's no "let's assume", give us the evidence, the proof that your God exists.

Secondly, if your God doesn't think that a person getting stabbed to death is a horrible thing, then I don't think I should believe him, and I don't think anyone should. That's it, I am morally superior compared to your god.

Modifié par VampireSoap, 26 mai 2012 - 04:39 .

[o Ventus]

Han Shot First wrote...

Let's assume for a moment that God and heaven exists. Why would that being feel a need to prevent, say some guy getting stabbed to death on a street corner? While that death may be a horribly tragic thing from our point of view, would God view it the same way? After all we'd be dealing with an alien intelligence, and expecting God to view death in the same way as we do is anthropomorphizing him, or her, or it. Furthermore if death isn't the end of existence, it is likely any creator would just view death as just another stage of life, much like a caterpillar entering a cocoon and emerging a butterfly. If the soul exists and is eternal, why fear death? It would likely view our fear or the mourning of people who have died, as irrational and based on ignorance.

To be clear, I'm an agnostic. I just find the 'horrible things happen on Earth every day' argument against the existence of a deity or deities as one of the weaker ones.

Assuming existence, I think "alien intelligence" wouldn't be the best way to word it. "Creation" implies that a plan was set during the actual creation, unless God was bored one day and just wanted to see something interesting happen. I mean, there wouldn't be a point to the creation if there wasn't a set of standards by which the created are subject too. You don't create a robot designed to lift things without a fulcrum and axis. Another thing is the whole "We were created in God's image" schtick. If this were to be taken at face value, it would imply that we're similar to God in some way, whether it be superficial, mental, or biological.

The cocoon analogy isn't really a good one, since the caterpillar is still physically alive after metamorphosis.

If a creator were to view our natural fear of death as irrational and ignorant, why not make an effort to teach us otherwise, unless he just didn't give a crap? For that matter, the ingrained fear of death implies that a creator implanted that on purpose, undermining your point about anthropomorphizing. 

Painting God as a chaotic neutral like you've done here just kills the whole point of Christianity even existing, to depict God as a benevolent, crap-giving being. It sounds like you're drawing comparisons to God and Cthulhu.

Modifié par o Ventus, 26 mai 2012 - 04:41 .

[Han Shot First]

Getting back on topic, I think religion can be discussed or dealt with in Sci Fi. But I personally prefer that it be dealt with in this fashion: It exists in the universe and there are characters who are religious and others who are agnostics or atheists, but the writers don't use the story as a soapbox to forcefeed the audience a message. If the story is a thinly veiled attempt by the writer(s) to convert me one way or the other, I'll most likely lose interest.

But that also goes for politics. I wouldn't be interested in Sci Fi that only acts as a mask for a political message, even if I agree with it. If I want to hear someone's political opinion I'll read a newspaper or listen to the BBC or NPR --- I don't want it when I'm supposed to be reading fiction.

[Tazzmission]

why is this in the non spoiler section?

[o Ventus]

Han Shot First wrote...

That isn't really true. The two most destructive conflicts in all of human history, WW1 and WW2, were not in any way motivated by religion. Neither were the Napoleonic Wars, which IIRC is third on the list.

Even so-called religious wars often had little to actually do with religion in practice. Take for example the Crusades. Most of the knights and Lords who signed up to go fight the 'infidel,' didn't give a toss about religion. They were usually poor knights without lands of their own, or younger sons of noble lords who weren't due to inherit lands and title. For the most part they were motivated more by the possibility of loot and land than piety.

I wasn't strictly talking about war. I meant that in a more general, broad sense. War, persecution, assassination, execution, etc. All of those (and others) combined.

[MACharlie1]

Regardless of what ANYONE believes in regard to whether or not God or religion exists, etc. It is an integral part of any culture. Sci-fi deals with culture and how it's evolved over time. Guess what? Religion is a part of that. Despite the fact that you may not believe in any religion, it's still part of the world and science fiction can deal with that. You feel that in a sci-fi universe, religion is pointless - fine. Establish that fact that with the advent of so-and-so technology, the majority of people lost faith in God. There will always be some sort of percentage that believe in a higher power. It's very human to have faith in something.

[VampireSoap]

MACharlie1 wrote...

Regardless of what ANYONE believes in regard to whether or not God or religion exists, etc. It is an integral part of any culture. Sci-fi deals with culture and how it's evolved over time. Guess what? Religion is a part of that. Despite the fact that you may not believe in any religion, it's still part of the world and science fiction can deal with that. You feel that in a sci-fi universe, religion is pointless - fine. Establish that fact that with the advent of so-and-so technology, the majority of people lost faith in God. There will always be some sort of percentage that believe in a higher power. It's very human to have faith in something.

Yeah, exactly. It is very human to believe in silly things.:happy:   I'd appreciate a Sci-Fi like the Star Trek series which often shows how primitive aliens all believe in one God or another, even though these aliens originate from vastly different planets. And the God that the primitive aliens believe always resemble themselves. For example, a black alien tribesman will believe in a black god, a white alien tribesman a white god, etc.

Modifié par VampireSoap, 26 mai 2012 - 05:00 .

[Han Shot First]

Assuming existence, I think "alien intelligence" wouldn't be the best way to word it. "Creation" implies that a plan was set during the actual creation, unless God was bored one day and just wanted to see something interesting happen. I mean, there wouldn't be a point to the creation if there wasn't a set of standards by which the created are subject too. You don't create a robot designed to lift things without a fulcrum and axis. Another thing is the whole "We were created in God's image" schtick. If this were to be taken at face value, it would imply that we're similar to God in some way, whether it be superficial, mental, or biological.

Sure, but also assuming that Christianity or anyone else who preaches 'created in God's image' is right. Assuming existence, it is equally possible that organized religion could be right about existence but also wrong about everything else. Or that 'created in God's image' doesn't mean what they think it means.

The cocoon analogy isn't really a good one, since the caterpillar is still physically alive after metamorphosis.

If the soul exists and is eternal, what we view as death wouldn't be really death at all either. If only your body died, but your mind lived on in some other form of existence, the experience of death wouldn't be so different from the metamorphosis of a caterpillar. From the POV of a deity, the passing of the physical realm into the spiritual would just be a stage of life and nothing to be feared.

If a creator were to view our natural fear of death as irrational and ignorant, why not make an effort to teach us otherwise, unless he just didn't give a crap? For that matter, the ingrained fear of death implies that a creator implanted that on purpose, undermining your point about anthropomorphizing.

Painting God as a chaotic neutral like you've done here just kills the whole point of Christianity even existing, to depict God as a benevolent, crap-giving being.

Fear of death does serve a biological purpose, as it prevented our primitive ancestors from say, picking up a poisonous snake and playing jump rope with it.

Fear of death is linked to our survival instinct, which is necessary for our continuation as a species. But from the POV of a deity, it may not feel a need to step in and prevent tragic deaths *if* those people than move on to some higher level of existence.

To be clear I'm an agnostic. But occasionally I also like playing devil's advocate.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 26 mai 2012 - 05:00 .

[VampireSoap]

Han Shot First wrote...

Sure, but also assuming that Christianity or anyone else who preaches 'created in God's image' is right. Assuming existence.....

If the soul exists and is eternal....

Fear of death does serve a biological purpose, as it prevented our primitive ancestors from say, picking up a poisonous snake and playing jump rope with it.

Fear of death is linked to our survival instinct, which is necessary for our continuation as a species. But from the POV of a deity, it may not feel a need to step in and prevent tragic deaths *if* those people than move on to some higher level of existence.

To be clear I'm an agnostic. But occasionally I also like playing devil's advocate.

Frankly, haven't you ever considered the possibility that all of those religious preachings are just hogwash? From reading your post, I could see that you were still struggling to make sense of all those illogical Christian assumptions.
Why not just throw all that away and be free and then come join me in Hell?

Modifié par VampireSoap, 26 mai 2012 - 05:28 .

[timj2011]

Since this is in the Mass Effect forum...what would religions (abrahamic) do when we find/contact alien life? Seriously, would that mean that we are the most special race in the universe and all others are just accidents? Or the bible is just relative to humans and god has a different plan for other alien species? Alien Jesus? Aliens vs. Predators vs. Muhammad? I find it borderline comical when religious folks say it wouldn't matter...the very existence of ANY biological life completely nullifies the existence of a personal god for humanity. Some unknown deity secretly making things work...possible, but wouldn't matter because it wouldn't interfere in the first place.

[NoxNoctum]

Battlestar galactica (remake)

'nuff said