200 réponses à ce sujet

[RaenImrahl]

Let's try to please keep on topic, as Chris stated in the first or second page of this thread. A wider debate over the existence or lack thereof of a given deity will certainly not be resolved here. Trying to change other peoples' minds to that fact, one way or the other, is off-topic.

[VampireSoap]

RaenImrahl wrote...

Let's try to please keep on topic, as Chris stated in the first or second page of this thread. A wider debate over the existence or lack thereof of a given deity will certainly not be resolved here. Trying to change other peoples' minds to that fact, one way or the other, is off-topic.

Oh, alright, I actually didn't read Mr.Priestly's statement. Sorry about that, and I'll...uh...shut up now :happy:

[G00N3R7883]

I'm not religious but I don't have a problem with religion in my entertainment, be it games, TV or film, be it sci-fi, fantasy or modern day. As with most things, its down to the quality of the writers to explore the themes in an intelligent and respectful manner.

[Roobz82]

As long as it is critical I think it's ok. Religion has long been the enemy of science, and that after all is what the Sci stands for.

[MetalGearMonk]

I don't think it should be excluded. I want to see how religion and faith still co-exist with everything else happening in a more technological advanced civilization. The fact that Shep was brought back to life has always made me question...where does the concept of "soul" come into place?

And even other players have wondered how Ash can still believe in a higher being with everything else going on in the universe. I don't think it should be excluded because I want to see the interaction of it with the advanced technology.

The only problem I would have with it is if the developers were trying to push a ulterior agenda by being pro-science/pro-religion and down cast the other. That is not what I want to see...why can't there be both and show more of how they co-exist.

[XqctaX]

religion - indoctrination.

its a fable. a child story that for some reason grown men accually still belive.

one word, toothfairy.... grow up LOL

[LingXiao]

Religion tries to explain the origin of existence and the meaning of life. Those are the two things science will never be able to explore.

The christian concept of God is far less directly involved than many think he is. He isn't responsible for everything good or bad happening in the world, for every smiling fortune or bad luck. Nearly everything could be explained in a natural way, without involving metaphysical causes.

Science and religion are not enemies and will never be, as long as both sides keep to their own domains. Sadly many think otherwise.

To try to answer the original question: Religion will always have a place in human history, be it in the past or in the future, be it fiction or reality. But if I had to choose between a faulty implementation and none, I would take the latter. Everything else is what breeds narrow-minded and untenable assertions like "There is no God" or "Our God is the sole truth".

[Pride Demon]

Naughty Bear wrote...

Amaterasuomikami wrote...

Naughty Bear wrote...

How would religion accept this if we came into contact with an actual Mass Relay?

It would depend on the religion, but I don't see for example the Vatican having a panic attack. Certainly the Church has been increasingly comfortable with science, although of course they want people to not be obsessed with technology and forget their morality/faith.

The Mass Effect series is fairly upbeat about religion. The Asari are probably the most advanced race in the galaxy, and their faith is still very important to them.

Until Javik came along.

Not really... Most asari are Siarists now, Javik doesn't tarnish that belief system at all, the cult of the goddess is merely the only other asari religion to have survived in somewhat significant numbers, but it's still a minority...
The reason so many asari mutter "by the goddess" is more a cultural fenomenon (like a human saying "Oh my God!" to express surprise or fear) than a display of faith...

[Selene Moonsong]

For those who have missed Chirs Priestly's post:

Chris Priestly wrote...

We do not discuss real world religions here (mine is better than yours, this is the true one, etc). However, talking about how religion may or may not work in Mass Effect is valid as long as it stays away from "Well Shepard would never believe in X..." or "There wouldn't be anymore Y because they woudl have all died off" etc.

[Wereparrot]

As the real world would be rather boring if there was no diversity, so too would fictional worlds. Indeed it would be more so, because while in the real world anyone with any particular sincerely held religious belief would rather that there were no other religions, there is no such barrier to diversity in a fictional world, even a fictionalised real world, since it is a fictional world. 

On the othe hand, you cannot expect adherents of any given real world faith to take any percieved slight on the theological or moral standards of the religion in question lying down, especially if it is a fictionalised real world. Suspension of belief only goes so far.

[Caja]

Naughty Bear wrote...

In majority of sci-fi media, we are dealing with themes of Transhumanism, bioengineering, alien life, artficial life and many others that could resolve around the creation of species or the galaxy.

Religion is quite a complex topic and probably a taboo. And with so many religions each with their own view on how we should live our lives, is religion too much trouble and be ignored in future sci-fi media and in the future or is it important to sci-fi and our future?

Is and would Religion get in the way of such advancements in reality and in sci-fi? Just been wondering on how religions in the Mass Efect universe would deal with the everyday man/woman having implants and genetic engineering, AI's taking part in everyday life and actual alien life walking the streets.

How would religion accept this if we came into contact with an actual Mass Relay?

I don’t think Religion is trouble, not in science fiction anyway. On the contrary, sci fi is a great medium to explore or criticize religious attitudes. Think about “2001: A Space Odyssey”, which has very philosophical theme (where do we come from, where do we go?) and yet leaves a lot of room for interpretation.
And as “Babylon 5” has proven, you can establish questions of morality with religious themes: Two parties are fighting each other because they believe in completely different things (order vs. chaos), not unlike Mass Effect. So, is one of them right? And if not, how do you convince them to leave ‘your’ galaxy alone?
“Doctor Who” is another example of implementing beliefs: Cybermen, robotic, emotionless creatures, will always try to turn humans into one of their own, because they believe to be superior.
“Battlestar Galactica” (2003) uses a religious theme in a less subtle way. Religion here becomes part o the characters background (Roslin or Baltar) and therefore an important topic of the show.

I could go on, but I think it is enough to make my point clear: Religion in science fiction can be used in a very broad context. It is not getting in the way; it actually helps to establish the worlds because it can be used in metaphoric way or as part of the character development. It all comes down to the question: What does character / faction XY believe in, that is important to the underlying idea? Or: How do the beliefs of character / faction XY define the underlying idea? That’s the reason why I think that BioWare didn’t handle it well in Mass Effect. There were certainly many codex entries, but storywise Sheppard’s journey - in a religious context - wasn’t well themed.

I think, if we came across a Mass Relay, that it would certainly alter our religion as it is today, but I doubt that religion would completely disappear, because people need to believe in something.

[RyuujinZERO]

Science fiction is often an exercise in the theoretical; there's no name (or to my knowledge any stories) that posit the question "If X god exists how would the world be different" and then answer it in as complete a fashion as a sci-fi would when positing questions like "If the mass effect exists, how would the world be different"

But it seems reasonable that such a thought exercise could be done within the framework.

Likewise it seems perfectly reasonable that the existence of religions be acknowledged in the answers of sci-fi questions, as long as they are treated with the same thoroughness as the scientific questions (if only to avoid a literal deus ex machina ), and only apply "miracles" if they form part of the original thought exercise (See example 1).

I doubt the existance of the greatest science would ever destroy all faith so skipping it in sci-fi is a misrepresentation of the future. I was havign a discussion only two days ago about a guy who flatout refuses to acknoledge the existance of things such as quantum mechanics, evolution or even the age of the universe. People like him will ALWAYS exist, no matter how insane it may look

Modifié par RyuujinZERO, 26 mai 2012 - 11:49 .

[DaJe]

Battlestar Galactica is all about that and it worked perfectly. I think the trick is to invent religions that resemble real ones. That allows to explore the topic without directly stepping on someones toes.

[theoldmanfromscene24]

Naughty Bear wrote...

Religion is quite a complex topic and probably a taboo. And with so many religions each with their own view on how we should live our lives, is religion too much trouble and be ignored in future sci-fi media and in the future or is it important to sci-fi and our future?

What's the difference between a sci-fi world where religion is ignored and one where the entire world is athiest? You'll argue with me and probably not like to hear it, but athiesm (and agnostism) is a worldview too, with themes all its own. So being truly neutral is a challenge. If that's even your goal.

[Blacklash93]

Sci-fi writers can explore whatever avenues they want in a genre. It's not like themes or commentary of faith have not been explored in here before.

When aliens are involved it gets the most interesting, imo. Either you have some monomyth going on or you have many diverse and very often contradicting beliefs. I prefer the latter.

My reasoning behind that is I like it when writers explore how faith evolves and changes according to unusual circumstnaces or revelations. If we're completely honest, it's extremely likely that if humanity actually does come across intelligent aliens their spiritual beliefs would be very different and have contradicting stories of creation to ours. Imagining how we would react to that is something that fascinates me.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 26 mai 2012 - 03:08 .

[Elhanan]

Personally, I liked the religious statements and questioning in ME1 of Shepard and Ashley; thought it was handled rather well myself, and did not get the feeling of the topic being labled as extremist. I could deal with more like this.

[darkiddd]

Religion is a basic topic on sci-fi and will always be. Science fiction tries to approach the future in many different ways and with different styles but it usually treates themes like transhumanism, war, friendship, understanding, love, etc... themes that are important now and we know will be important in a future.

You can't treat this themes while ignoring religion... well you can but it won't work. Religion is about the final and ultimate future. Whether it's true or not doesn't matter in this scenario because what's important is how the characters react and develop with this concept.

Religion is always on sci-fi and is getting tiresome? So are love, hate, or friendship and I don't hear anyone complain about it. Religion is a consequence of faith, an important element of human nature (and alien nature in most sci-fi because there always have to be some elements common between humans and aliens to reinforce the understanding and coexistence themes) Ignoring religion in the future is like ignoring there can be love or friendship, an idea completely absurd.

So no, religion shouldn't stay away from sci-fi unless you want to have bad sci-fi.

[dukiduki]

Yes, it should. The two do not mix well, since Sci-Fi needs a strong scientific basis (hence the name) and science and religion are almost complete opposites. Religious/supernatural elements usually do not integrate well into the rather grounded plot most Science Fiction (including Mass Effect) has. Battlestar Galactica (the remake, I don't know the original) would be my prime negative example, it was filled with "God did it"-twists and illogical non-sense just to introduce some religious angle into a Science Fiction story. Besides, it is not unreasonable to assume that only a small minority is religious in the future. The are already mainly athestic socieites in our time and the constant progress of science is bound to undermine religious dogma further.

Edit:

@ above poster:

Religion is not a basic human emotion and there are millions of people in the world that live well without it. So saying that religion must be part of Science Fiction since it is integral part of humanity is ridiculous.

Modifié par dukiduki, 26 mai 2012 - 03:10 .

[darkiddd]

dukiduki wrote...

@ above poster:

Religion is not a basic human emotion and there are millions of people in the world that live well without it. So saying that religion must be part of Science Fiction since it is integral part of humanity is ridiculous.

I said faith is a basic human element and religion is a consequence from it. 

Not everyone has a religion but everyone has faith in something. EVERYONE. Every human being that is alive in this planet believes in something or hopes that something will happen.

So to exclude religion in sci-fi. Something that will always exist in different forms as well as atheism or agnosticism is limiting yourself when you want to create a rich story.

So as I said Religion shouldn't be put away. And I'm not showing here my beliefs. I'm not saying I'm religious or not I'm just saying what in my opinion is best for a sci-fi story with the reasons I've given. 

[Blacklash93]

darkiddd wrote...
You can't treat this themes while ignoring religion... well you can but it won't work. Religion is about the final and ultimate future. Whether it's true or not doesn't matter in this scenario because what's important is how the characters react and develop with this concept.

So no, religion shouldn't stay away from sci-fi unless you want to have bad sci-fi.

Religion is primarily defined by the belief in divine supernatural deities and forces how they affect the world.

You can easily have themes of war, morality, emotions, ect. without involving things concerning the supernatural.

As long as the "ultimate" future in the context of the conflict of the story does not involve the supernatural, religion is not involved.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 26 mai 2012 - 03:27 .

[Grimwick]

darkiddd wrote...

dukiduki wrote...

@ above poster:

Religion is not a basic human emotion and there are millions of people in the world that live well without it. So saying that religion must be part of Science Fiction since it is integral part of humanity is ridiculous.

I said faith is a basic human element and religion is a consequence from it. 

Not everyone has a religion but everyone has faith in something. EVERYONE. Every human being that is alive in this planet believes in something or hopes that something will happen.

So to exclude religion in sci-fi. Something that will always exist in different forms as well as atheism or agnosticism is limiting yourself when you want to create a rich story.

So as I said Religion shouldn't be put away. And I'm not showing here my beliefs. I'm not saying I'm religious or not I'm just saying what in my opinion is best for a sci-fi story with the reasons I've given. 

Faith is simply a belief in a concept without evidence. You can't say that EVERYONE has faith in something on that definition, that's a ridiculous claim. Also, hope =/= faith.

Religion shouldn't be a necessary part of sci-fi purely because some people believe in it. It needs to be there for a reason. Often, unless it is a good reason, the story would be just as enriching without religion than with it.

[abaris]

Elhanan wrote...

Personally, I liked the religious statements and questioning in ME1 of Shepard and Ashley; thought it was handled rather well myself, and did not get the feeling of the topic being labled as extremist. I could deal with more like this.

Agreed. It was indeed handled pretty well. And it had all the components I would expect from such an exchange, namely letting the player decide how they responded.

[Gogzilla]

Depends on the Religion.

Having watched Star Trek DS9 , religion in sci-fi is definitely an interesting subject to explore.

Some religions work better with sci-fi than others.