200 réponses à ce sujet

[VampireSoap]

darkiddd wrote...

dukiduki wrote...

@ above poster:

Religion is not a basic human emotion and there are millions of people in the world that live well without it. So saying that religion must be part of Science Fiction since it is integral part of humanity is ridiculous.

I said faith is a basic human element and religion is a consequence from it. 

Not everyone has a religion but everyone has faith in something. EVERYONE. Every human being that is alive in this planet believes in something or hopes that something will happen.

So to exclude religion in sci-fi. Something that will always exist in different forms as well as atheism or agnosticism is limiting yourself when you want to create a rich story.

So as I said Religion shouldn't be put away. And I'm not showing here my beliefs. I'm not saying I'm religious or not I'm just saying what in my opinion is best for a sci-fi story with the reasons I've given. 

No, I think you are confused about the usage of the word "faith". You are not religious when you just have faith that all men are inherently good/evil, or a man should not tell lies, or a woman should not be submissive. But when you start having faith in unicorns, or flying spaghetti monsters, or a God who sacrifices himself TO himself, or a Devil who punishes bad guys (doesn't that make him the good guy?), you become religious.

[Gibb_Shepard]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Naughty Bear wrote...


Yes it is around but what about if it became more prominent? Like plastic-surgery for example.

The average folk just walking into clinics and having designer babies, changing their genes or having a cybernetic limb like Deus Ex.

How would you feel if it was like that? And just wondering if you don't mind, what is your religion?

I'm a Christian.

B. is horribly selfish: who is the parent to say what another human being should be like?

I think you should read up on your religion.

OT: No. Religion is a good story point. It was very well done in BSG. Any kind of narrative fiction should have all aspects of society at it's disposal.

Modifié par Gibb_Shepard, 26 mai 2012 - 04:40 .

[VampireSoap]

Gogzilla wrote...

Depends on the Religion.

Having watched Star Trek DS9 , religion in sci-fi is definitely an interesting subject to explore.

Some religions work better with sci-fi than others.

:lol: DS9 clearly was making fun of the religious people. Every time the Bajorans worship the "prophets", I just facepalm. I mean, the wormhole aliens just don't give a damn about them...Before Sisko first enters the wormhole, the wormhole aliens have not yet understood even the meaning of time. In the later seasons, when the developers suddenly adds the theme that Sisko is actually a "half-prophet", I just facepalm even harder. It just doesn't make sense, have the damn aliens been lying from Season One to Season Two? There's a reason why DS9 wasn't really popular.

So no, please, religion should really stay away from Sci-Fi. Unless...you want to depict a dark future where humans almost destory themselves in a devastating war, and after the war all men reverse to a much more primitive state, then religion should be there.

Modifié par VampireSoap, 26 mai 2012 - 04:57 .

[macrocarl]

Religion should stay away from Sci-fi when a story is trying to tie up loose mysterious ends, can't and then leaves the whole mess at the end as a matter of 'faith'. It's lazy writing. 'B-Star' did it, 'Lost' rocked it, that crappy show 'Heroes' was going that way.........

[darkiddd]

I'll try to explain again as better as possible because some people are misunderstanding what I mean:

First of all faith is to believe in something without evidence. And hope is to expect something or believe something will happen without evidence or even with evidence that disproves that what you hope is going to happen. For this matter faith and hope are basically the same thing.

Now faith is the pilar of any religion but you can have faith and not be religious. You can have faith in that your football team is going to win a championship even if it plays very bad or that your dad who is very ill is going to get better or that someday nobody will starve to death and there will be peace in the world someday. This are things many non-religious (and religious) people hope even when from a realistic and empirical point of view is something very difficult to achieve or impossible. But this is what hope is for, to motivate us and give us a purpose.

Everyone bases their existence on hope and faith in something be it religious or not. It gives some kind of sense to life so there will always be elements derivated from faith like (ding!) religion. In more or less intesity with more or less people but religion will always exist as well as agnosticism or atheism.

So ignoring religion would diminish a sci-fi story greatly. Yes sci-fi is sci-fi and it's not very realistic in some aspects but it always has lots of real elements from real life that allow us to "connect" with the story and characters. As I said these elements can be love, friendship, sacrifice, hate... Human emotions and elements. Faith is essential in this matter and a part of it manifests in religion.

I hope  to have explained it better this time. 

Modifié par darkiddd, 26 mai 2012 - 05:11 .

[Dormin]

As long as it doesn't take away from the "hardness" of the science fiction, by which I mean no space magic. I'm fine with seeming how faith changes with technological advancements and exploring concepts of alien religion and mythology.

[VampireSoap]

darkiddd wrote...

I'll try to explain again as better as possible because some people are misunderstanding what I mean:

First of all faith is to believe in something without evidence. And hope is to expect something or believe something will happen without evidence or even with evidence that disproves that what you hope is going to happen. For this matter faith and hope are basically the same thing.

Now faith is the pilar of any religion but you can have faith and not be religious. You can have faith in that your football team is going to win a championship even if it plays very bad or that your dad who is very ill is going to get better or that someday nobody will starve to death and there will be peace in the world someday. This are things many non-religious (and religious) people hope even when from a realistic and empirical point of view is something very difficult to achieve or impossible. But this is what hope is for, to motivate us and give us a purpose.

Everyone bases their existence on hope and faith in something be it religious or not. It gives some kind of sense to life so there will always be elements derivated from faith like (ding!) religion. In more or less intesity with more or less people but religion will always exist as well as agnosticism or atheism.

So ignoring religion would diminish a sci-fi story greatly. Yes sci-fi is sci-fi and it's not very realistic in some aspects but it always has lots of real elements from real life that allow us to "connect" with the story and characters. As I said these elements can be love, friendship, sacrifice, hate... Human emotions and elements. Faith is essential in this matter and a part of it manifests in religion.

I hope  to have explained it better this time. 

First of all, I was not aware that you could actually redefine "hope", and then say "faith" and "hope" are the same thing.

Secondly, along with millions of other people, I don't have faith. I have reasonable expectations based on evidence and reason. If my soccer team really sucks, I would not be fully convinced that they would win a championship because that's just stupid. If my dad is having a terminal disease, I would not sit down and pray for him, or take him to a voodoo doctor, because that's also stupid and would never help him.

Thirdly, not everyone thinks the same way you do. I have no idea how you got the idea of "everyone bases their existence on hope and faith in something" That's an extraordinary claim, and it requires extraordinary evidence.

Fourthly, I'm glad you realize that  faith is believing in something without evidence. That is exactly what gullibility is all about. If I say that I'm going to send a million dollars to your bank account, you just need to send me a token, say $200 for all the troubles. Would you just have faith in me, or would you ask me for evidence? People are always so careful with their bank accounts, but when it comes to the very thing that guides every aspect of their life, they become financial morons.

Modifié par VampireSoap, 26 mai 2012 - 05:49 .

[Elhanan]

darkiddd wrote...

I'll try to explain again as better as possible because some people are misunderstanding what I mean:

First of all faith is to believe in something without evidence. And hope is to expect something or believe something will happen without evidence or even with evidence that disproves that what you hope is going to happen. For this matter faith and hope are basically the same thing.

Now faith is the pilar of any religion but you can have faith and not be religious. You can have faith in that your football team is going to win a championship even if it plays very bad or that your dad who is very ill is going to get better or that someday nobody will starve to death and there will be peace in the world someday. This are things many non-religious (and religious) people hope even when from a realistic and empirical point of view is something very difficult to achieve or impossible. But this is what hope is for, to motivate us and give us a purpose.

Everyone bases their existence on hope and faith in something be it religious or not. It gives some kind of sense to life so there will always be elements derivated from faith like (ding!) religion. In more or less intesity with more or less people but religion will always exist as well as agnosticism or atheism.

So ignoring religion would diminish a sci-fi story greatly. Yes sci-fi is sci-fi and it's not very realistic in some aspects but it always has lots of real elements from real life that allow us to "connect" with the story and characters. As I said these elements can be love, friendship, sacrifice, hate... Human emotions and elements. Faith is essential in this matter and a part of it manifests in religion.

I hope  to have explained it better this time. 

Not to wander, but I contend that faith is based on evidence. While the deity may be unseen, faith may be based upon prior actions; promises kept both good and ill. Faith is not the blind leap to the unseen bridge a la' Indiana Jones, but is action based on prior evidence that a bridge is indeed there.

[KingJason13]

No, religion should be in sci-fi, when neccesary... Keep it out of Bioware forums, though, there's no way to dicuss it without making the believers sound crazy...

[Russalka]

I don't see what the problem could be. Stargate did it well, they differentiated between the evils of religion (the Goa'uld, the Ori) and the good (ascension).

[MystEU]

Religion should stay away from everything that isn't "your personal life" and "your business." Everybody is too easily offended for some reason or another, otherwise. Subtle metaphors of concepts (i.e. creation, not necessarily Christianity or any particular faith) should be welcomed, but blatant references should probably be kept on the downlow.

[Kr0gan]

What? this thread is still alive?, well I guess it doesn't matter to talk openly about religion in this forum... oh look, a thread about racism down there! lol

[abaris]

MystEU wrote...

Religion should stay away from everything that isn't "your personal life" and "your business." Everybody is too easily offended for some reason or another, otherwise. Subtle metaphors of concepts (i.e. creation, not necessarily Christianity or any particular faith) should be welcomed, but blatant references should probably be kept on the downlow.

Yet a good story can use it to paint well rounded individuals. Religion or the absence of religion in personal lives can shape a character and if used well can make a story all the more three dimensional.

As has been said, the Ashley scene in ME1 was pretty well done. Especially since you as the player decided how to answer her claim.

Sadly, with all the autodialogue in ME3, it turns out to be worse with this game, since there are one or two pseudo religious insinuations.

[VampireSoap]

abaris wrote...

As has been said, the Ashley scene in ME1 was pretty well done. Especially since you as the player decided how to answer her claim.

Sadly, with all the autodialogue in ME3, it turns out to be worse with this game, since there are one or two pseudo religious insinuations.

Yeah, the Ashley scene....

Ashley: That's...not a problem with you, is it? That I believe in God?

Shepard:  

  (Troll face)I do too ____ Of course not (It's not my fault that you are stupid )                 
                                /        \\  
                                !         ! Not my place to judge (We'll bang, ok? Seriously, this option leads to romance.)
                                \\____/
  Keep it to yourself           Are you a fanatic? (Nobody believes that religious crap anymore, Ash.)

Modifié par VampireSoap, 26 mai 2012 - 07:37 .

[Getorex]

VampireSoap wrote...

abaris wrote...

As has been said, the Ashley scene in ME1 was pretty well done. Especially since you as the player decided how to answer her claim.

Sadly, with all the autodialogue in ME3, it turns out to be worse with this game, since there are one or two pseudo religious insinuations.

Yeah, the Ashley scene....

Ashley: That's...not a problem with you, is it? That I believe in God?

Shepard:  

  (Troll face)I do too ____ Of course not (It's not my fault that you are stupid )                 
                                /          
                                !         ! Not my place to judge (We'll bang, ok? Seriously, this option leads to romance.)
                                ____/
  Keep it to yourself           Are you a fanatic? (Nobody believes that religious crap anymore, Ash.)

Yup.  The conversation option that leads to sex is the correct one.  Even if you had to lie to get there it was the correct one.  Fortunately, the neutral option does lead to the beast with two backs.  THAT'S religion baby. 

[Caja]

VampireSoap wrote...

:lol: DS9 clearly was making fun of the religious people. Every time the Bajorans worship the "prophets", I just facepalm. I mean, the wormhole aliens just don't give a damn about them...Before Sisko first enters the wormhole, the wormhole aliens have not yet understood even the meaning of time. In the later seasons, when the developers suddenly adds the theme that Sisko is actually a "half-prophet", I just facepalm even harder. It just doesn't make sense, have the damn aliens been lying from Season One to Season Two? There's a reason why DS9 wasn't really popular.

So no, please, religion should really stay away from Sci-Fi. Unless...you want to depict a dark future where humans almost destory themselves in a devastating war, and after the war all men reverse to a much more primitive state, then religion should be there.

But you do realize that the theme of the show was science vs. spirituality? Now, one doesn't have to like it, but it is obvious that the powers behind Deep Space Nine were serious about it. And without the context of religion there wouldn't be such great characters as Kai Winn, played by the incredible talented Louise Fletcher.  As a matter of fact, you wouldn't even have Sisko .   

See also here:
"After Roddenberry's death in 1991, the producers and writers began to offer richer and more complex representations of religious practices, beliefs and worldviews, most extensively in the cosmic religious drama that Deep Space Nine became".
Source: Religions of Star Trek, page 11. Link: books.google.de/books

Back on topic:
As I tried to stress before, religion in science-fiction is used in a broader context than just in a way of "character XY believes in God". Science-fiction often uses allegories to point out problems in our actual society and many topics that arise from that are connected with religious or philosphical questions. "Frankenstein", even though it is a gothic tale, contains science-fiction elements as well. And it's simply not possible to ignore the religious aspects here. The main character creates a new life form - out of corpses - and plays God. In a similar way the Reapers created new Reapers.

SPOILER!

There even is a God-like character at the end of the game, so the Reapers were driven by beliefs, too.

SPOILER END



To sum it up: Religious metaphors, if used in a sophisticated way, make perfect sense in science-fiction.

Modifié par Caja, 26 mai 2012 - 08:39 .

[Getorex]

Caja wrote...

VampireSoap wrote...

:lol: DS9 clearly was making fun of the religious people. Every time the Bajorans worship the "prophets", I just facepalm. I mean, the wormhole aliens just don't give a damn about them...Before Sisko first enters the wormhole, the wormhole aliens have not yet understood even the meaning of time. In the later seasons, when the developers suddenly adds the theme that Sisko is actually a "half-prophet", I just facepalm even harder. It just doesn't make sense, have the damn aliens been lying from Season One to Season Two? There's a reason why DS9 wasn't really popular.

So no, please, religion should really stay away from Sci-Fi. Unless...you want to depict a dark future where humans almost destory themselves in a devastating war, and after the war all men reverse to a much more primitive state, then religion should be there.

But you do realize that the theme of the show was science vs. spirituality? Now, one doesn't have to like it, but it is obvious that the powers behind Deep Space Nine were serious about it. And without the context of religion there wouldn't be such great characters as Kai Winn, played by the incredible talented Louise Fletcher.  As a matter of fact, you wouldn't even have Sisko .   

See also here:
"After Roddenberry's death in 1991, the producers and writers began to offer richer and more complex representations of religious practices, beliefs and worldviews, most extensively in the cosmic religious drama that Deep Space Nine became".
Source: Religions of Star Trek, page 11. Link: books.google.de/books

Back on topic:
As I tried to stress before, religion in science-fiction is used in a broader context than just in a way of "character XY believes in God". Science-fiction often uses allegories to point out problems in our actual society and many topics that arise from that are connected with religious or philosphical questions. "Frankenstein", even though it is a gothic tale, contains science-fiction elements as well. And it's simply not possible to ignore the religious aspects here. The main character creates a new life form - out of corpses - and plays God. In a similar way the Reapers created new Reapers.

SPOILER!

There even is a God-like character at the end of the game, so the Reapers were driven by beliefs, too.

SPOILER END



To sum it up: Religious metaphors, if used in a sophisticated way, make perfect sense in science-fiction.

And there you have it folks.  Distilled down to one clear and succinct post so we can close out this thread now before it gets into some kind of flamey shape.

[VampireSoap]

Caja wrote...

But you do realize that the theme of the show was science vs. spirituality? Now, one doesn't have to like it, but it is obvious that the powers behind Deep Space Nine were serious about it. And without the context of religion there wouldn't be such great characters as Kai Winn, played by the incredible talented Louise Fletcher.  As a matter of fact, you wouldn't even have Sisko .   

See also here:
"After Roddenberry's death in 1991, the producers and writers began to offer richer and more complex representations of religious practices, beliefs and worldviews, most extensively in the cosmic religious drama that Deep Space Nine became".
Source: Religions of Star Trek, page 11. Link: books.google.de/books

Back on topic:
As I tried to stress before, religion in science-fiction is used in a broader context than just in a way of "character XY believes in God". Science-fiction often uses allegories to point out problems in our actual society and many topics that arise from that are connected with religious or philosphical questions. "Frankenstein", even though it is a gothic tale, contains science-fiction elements as well. And it's simply not possible to ignore the religious aspects here. The main character creates a new life form - out of corpses - and plays God. In a similar way the Reapers created new Reapers.

SPOILER!

There even is a God-like character at the end of the game, so the Reapers were driven by beliefs, too.

SPOILER END

To sum it up: Religious metaphors, if used in a sophisticated way, make perfect sense in science-fiction.

But you do realize that DS9 was not very popular, right? (Check memory alpha for TV awards, please) So did this "new strategy" which introduced religion into ST Universe actually work? This is what happens when you mix future science with religion ---  you get a horde of angry audiences.

And you do realize that Frankenstein is part of the anti-science movement, right? (Read the history about the rise of Romanticism and the fall of Rationalism after the Enlightment)

At last, sigh*... Reapers are machines, they don't "believe", they obey! Some extraordinary character says he controls them. At this point, I'm not even sure if you were trolling...

Modifié par VampireSoap, 26 mai 2012 - 09:02 .

[JonathonPR]

I have not found reason for conflict between the two that does not come from the desire for conflict to exist.

Science fiction and religion make a great team when done correctly. Read Arthur C. Clarke, and the Nome trilogy.

[Krunjar]

I think the answer to this is "depends on the religion".

There are thousands of religions with thousands of credo's and quite a few of them are compatible with the idea that man is not the first nor most favored life in the galaxy. And it depends on just how a religion is included. Many times the subtle inference is that it is a crutch so it is more about telling an emotional story than adding a valid religion to the plot. If you mean that for the intents and purposes of fiction the religion is "real" then no monotheistic, dogmatic religions like christianity or islam don't have much of a leg to stand on unless you like stretching the metaphors till you can see daylight. Unless they are written in really well that can often become hackneyed.

I guess my answer here is yes they do have a place but it depends on the religion and on the context just like everything else i think its the writers skill that tells here.

[Caja]

@ VampireSoap: I beg your pardon? Why would you even consider my post as trolling? And that is not meant as an offense, I'm actual curious.

Whether or not Deep Space Nine was popular has got nothing to do with the fact that the powers behind it implemented religious context in a serious way. Did it work? Honestly, I don't care.

Yes, Frankenstein is about the risks of science. But that doesn't eliminate religion from it. On contrary, it actually supports the "Frankenstein is about the dangors of playing God" thesis.

The Reapers may obey, but the catalyst behind them - no pun intended - wasn't just controlling them because he could, but because he believed in something.

And I leave it right there, before Getorex is right and this becomes a flame war.

Modifié par Caja, 26 mai 2012 - 09:24 .

[Getorex]

Caja wrote...

@ VampireSoap: I beg your pardon? Why would you even consider my post as trolling? And that is not meant as an offense, I'm actual curious.

Whether or not Deep Space Nine was popular has got nothing to do with the fact that the powers behind it implemented religious context in a serious way. Did it work? Honestly, I don't care.

Yes, Frankenstein is about the risks of science. But that doesn't eliminate religion from it. On contrary, it actually supports the "Frankenstein is about the dangors of playing God" thesis.

The Reapers may obey, but the catalyst behind them - no pun intended - wasn't just controlling them because he could, but because he believed in something.

And I leave it right there, before Getorex is right and this becomes a flame war.

One quick addition: Babylon 5.  Religion/spirituality galore and well done.  And here I am a heathen atheist.  It works when done right and well.

[VampireSoap]

Caja wrote...

@ VampireSoap: I beg your pardon? Why would you even consider my post as trolling? And that is not meant as an offense, I'm actual curious.

Whether or not Deep Space Nine was popular has got nothing to do with the fact that the powers behind it implemented religious context in a serious way. Did it work? Honestly, I don't care.

Yes, Frankenstein is about the risks of science. But that doesn't eliminate religion from it. On contrary, it actually supports the "Frankenstein is about the dangors of playing God" thesis.

The Reapers may obey, but the catalyst behind them - no pun intended - wasn't just controlling them because he could, but because he believed in something.

And I leave it right there, before Getorex is right and this becomes a flame war.

No, I was just saying that you might be trolling about the Reapers being able to "believe" things. And...now you are saying that they aren't able to "believe"...and that it's all just the Catalyst? I'm confused...

Also, would you care to elaborate how "the 'powers' behind it implemented religious context in a 'serious' way"? The only "serious" thing that I saw in DS9 is the ridiculous final scene where Dukat is pushed into "Hell". The concept of Pah-wraith vs. Prophet is so forced...

As for Frankenstein? I'm not sure anymore if you can take on more of my criticism, so I'll just leave it there in case you get the impression that I just want to bug you.

[Volus Warlord]

Kr0gan wrote...

What? this thread is still alive?, well I guess it doesn't matter to talk openly about religion in this forum... oh look, a thread about racism down there! lol

You can be "prejudiced" as you want against imiginary races. I can't stand the Asari. 

[Kr0gan]

Volus Warlord wrote...

Kr0gan wrote...

What? this thread is still alive?, well I guess it doesn't matter to talk openly about religion in this forum... oh look, a thread about racism down there! lol

You can be "prejudiced" as you want against imiginary races. I can't stand the Asari. 

What?! the thread about racism wasn't about imaginary races, you are probably referring to another thread.