281 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

Vox Draco wrote...
So you see the Reapers as benevolent to the galaxy? did you really think so even before you met the catalyst? Did this idea ever come to your mind before said five minutes? Where you really on Saren's side? Did you think at the time of ME2 that Harbinger was right to abduct those colonists? Did you think all this when those colonists on the collectors base were liquified and screamed of agony? Wow...just wow...don't know what to say actually...

Funny in a way. No, its not...or is it? Yes it is. Your justification for all the atrocities of the Reapers is still based on the last five minutes that introduce the synth vs. orga-conflict that may or may not have any basis on reality...you just take it for granted because the last five minutes say so. And ignore everything the game said so in the hours before. Quite selective point of view, but to each his own, I guess....

In a way, yes. Reapers are benevolent because their goal is to assure the continued existence of organic life in the galaxy? Does that meant I approve of their methods or would support the Reaperization of humanity? Of course not but I, unlike you, am willing to look at the problem from a different perspective.

[xsdob]

legion999 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Master Xanthan wrote...
Because if you spend too much time near Reaper tech you can get indoctrinated.

And if you spent too much time near radiation, you get cancer. But we found a way around that and use nuclear energy to power out cities, don't we?

Except the last time I checked I don't get irradiated from walking into or too near a nuclear power plant. I do get indoctrinated from going too close to Reaper tech however.

Explain how thanix cannon's could be created from soverigens destroyed body than?

[MisterJB]

Aiyie wrote...
the ends do not justify the means.  justice must have a place in this, and you seem to be disregarding it.

Don't spout moral absolutisms. Shepard killed 300 000 batarians to slow the Reapers. In that case, the end justified the means.

[Bill Casey]

HagarIshay wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

HagarIshay wrote...

In control ending, you are not letting the reapers walk freely. You are controling them.

I will never buy that...
That's just stupid...

And shooting one tube which is destroying all the reapers is making more sense? 

No...

It's a metaphor...
You're standing on a giant dialogue wheel talking to the Reaper King in outer space...

[Aiyie]

MisterJB wrote...

Aiyie wrote...
the ends do not justify the means.  justice must have a place in this, and you seem to be disregarding it.

Don't spout moral absolutisms. Shepard killed 300 000 batarians to slow the Reapers. In that case, the end justified the means.

ill give you that one. 

id say that Shepard is absolved of that particular crime when she sacrifices herself deafeating the Reapers, thus ensuring that the cycle ends.

the scale is balanced.

now... what balances the scales if the Reapers, after billions of years of Reaping and laying waste to countless civilizations and trillions upon trillions of beings, are not destroyed?  sure, the cycle is ended, but there is no justice for those the Reapers already wiped out.


its a question of magnitudes.  Shepard's own death in pursuit of a higher cause absolved her of murdering the batarians.

taking control of the reapers, rather than wiping them out, does not absolve them of all the murders they've committed.

Modifié par Aiyie, 25 mai 2012 - 08:11 .

[Duncaaaaaan]

Bill Casey wrote...

HagarIshay wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

HagarIshay wrote...

In control ending, you are not letting the reapers walk freely. You are controling them.

I will never buy that...
That's just stupid...

And shooting one tube which is destroying all the reapers is making more sense? 

No...

It's a metaphor...
You're standing on a giant dialogue wheel talking to the Reaper King in outer space...

Starbrat is the reaper king now?

Modifié par Duncaaaaaan, 25 mai 2012 - 08:10 .

[MisterJB]

HagarIshay wrote...

In control ending, you are not letting the reapers walk freely. You are controling them. Why kill the reapers and all the geth when you can use the reapers to help the organics, and let the synthetics live freely.

In synthesis, you are creating harmony between the synthetics and oganics. You don't need to destroy the reapers, because the war is already over.

Why destroy/kill the enemy is the only option to end a war? 

I like the way you think.

[Zulmoka531]

MisterJB wrote...

Zulmoka531 wrote...
Pretty sure they had a first contact war down the road...

Turian Imperialism in action. Humanity was not to blame.

But what happens when united Krogan, or Turian imperialsim reverse engineer even more Reaper tech. Sure humanity and Shepard may not be to blame, but it's not going to matter when what's left of the galaxy is basically an asteroid field from the resulting war(s).

[Taboo]

MisterJB wrote...

Aiyie wrote...
the ends do not justify the means.  justice must have a place in this, and you seem to be disregarding it.

Don't spout moral absolutisms. Shepard killed 300 000 batarians to slow the Reapers. In that case, the end justified the means.

Like you?

Your Shepard must be a jackass.

I sure as hell felt bad about it.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

MisterJB wrote...

StarcloudSWG wrote...
And the end result, a new Reaper, would be thoroughly indoctrinated to the Reaper cause and would be just a collection of AI's that THINK they're members of the original race. And that's just for one 'lucky' race. The others? just get wiped out.

First, all races are preserved. One as a Capital, the others as Destroyers. Read the Codex.

Second, there is zero evidence that suggests the resuting Reaper is just an AI that believes it used to be a member of the original race and not, in fact, the minds of the original organics preserved. Don't try to hide from the fact that killing a Reaper could be considered genocide.

And even if it wasn't, Reapers are the oldest, most knowledgeable beings in the galaxy. Destroying them would be akin to destroying the Alexandrian library or the Mona Lisa.

Ah yes the Carter Burke (Paul Reiser, Aliens) argument about "What gives us the right to destroy an important species like this?";

depite the fact that they've already killed billions in this cycle, or turned them into mindless husks, and perhaps harvested some -- you may already have killed the Elcor destroyer on Rannoch. And they've done this in every cycle. Their genocide has amounted in the trillions over the billion years they've been doing this. Now they're doing it to us.

You are applying moral relativism to the cycle, and that will only end in disaster.

This is about our survival, and my survival. I could care less about their survival.

As Samara said, "If I must kill a man because he has done wrong do I need to know that he is a devoted father?"

Given that these reapers have done wrong and that I need to destroy them, do I need to know all that? We must show our enemy no quarter.

Or as Vasquez said in response to Burke: "Watch us."

PS: I did not do Arrival.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 25 mai 2012 - 08:12 .

[Bill Casey]

Duncaaaaaan wrote...

Starbrat is the reaper king now?

Self proclaimed...

"The Reapers are mine. I control them."

Modifié par Bill Casey, 25 mai 2012 - 08:12 .

[NUM13ER]

I came to make sure the Reapers were gone. They were unspeakable monsters that perverted the course of history for maybe a billion years...no scenario where they continue to exist in any form was good enough. Destroy was the only option that definitely ended their existance.

Taking control of the Reapers seemed like a decidedly power-hungry option to me and Shepard had (not five minutes earlier) told the the Illusive Man that we weren't ready for such power. And I agreed. Controlling the Reapers means one day someone else could too or worse that Shep is forced to use them to police the galaxy like some sort of all knowing deity. Neither option fit very well with my paragon playthrough.

As for synthesis it flew in the face of everything I believed. Unity through diversity. The galaxies races coming together for one singular goal. And then some Reaper abomination tells me I should wipe away all that in order to make everyone similar. Even Wrex recognised that, although his clan was dominate, diversity among the Krogan was a necessary strength.

It doesn't matter what colour Destroy is hightlighted with at all. It's what the choice actually means in relation to your characters goals and morals that matter.

Modifié par NUM13ER, 25 mai 2012 - 08:17 .

[MisterJB]

Aiyie wrote...
now... what balances the scales if the Reapers, after billions of years of Reaping and laying waste to countless civilizations and trillions upon trillions of beings, are not destroyed?  sure, the cycle is ended, but there is no justice for those the Reapers already wiped out.

I don't see why "justice" has to come into the equation. Will killing the Reapers bring back the civilizations destroyed? No, in fact, one could argue you're just completing their genocide.

But if you want balance, how about using Reaper technology to improve the quality of life of all civilizations in the galaxy while, at the same time, preventing a future war between synthetics and organics?

[Vox Draco]

MisterJB wrote...

Vox Draco wrote...
So you see the Reapers as benevolent to the galaxy? did you really think so even before you met the catalyst? Did this idea ever come to your mind before said five minutes? Where you really on Saren's side? Did you think at the time of ME2 that Harbinger was right to abduct those colonists? Did you think all this when those colonists on the collectors base were liquified and screamed of agony? Wow...just wow...don't know what to say actually...

Funny in a way. No, its not...or is it? Yes it is. Your justification for all the atrocities of the Reapers is still based on the last five minutes that introduce the synth vs. orga-conflict that may or may not have any basis on reality...you just take it for granted because the last five minutes say so. And ignore everything the game said so in the hours before. Quite selective point of view, but to each his own, I guess....

In a way, yes. Reapers are benevolent because their goal is to assure the continued existence of organic life in the galaxy? Does that meant I approve of their methods or would support the Reaperization of humanity? Of course not but I, unlike you, am willing to look at the problem from a different perspective.

No, the difference between us is simply that I do not see the problem you want to believe exists. The catalyst states there is a problem synth vs. organics. I prefer to disagree, based on my past experiences, so for me there is no reason to solve anything by controling or synthesizing. The problem is not an obscure and unexplained conflict taking place only in the mind of this Boy-AI, but the Reapers destroying the galaxy again.

 And if a different perspective allows me to view the horrible killing of entire races in a positive light, then I prefer to avoid that perspective...it reeks of the Reaper way of thinking I despise since ME1. But thank you for the insight in your mind

[Subject M]

StarcloudSWG wrote...

You might have missed the bits where, you know, the Reapers were destroying entire civilizations, in horrible, horrible ways. Turning people into mindless monsters. Eliminating their personalities and turning them into tech zombies.

And the end result, a new Reaper, would be thoroughly indoctrinated to the Reaper cause and would be just a collection of AI's that THINK they're members of the original race. And that's just for one 'lucky' race. The others? just get wiped out.

It's entirely Paragon to wipe out the zombified, undead remains of previous civilizations that are under control of the biggest war criminal that could ever be imagined.

But they (the Reapers) think they are doing the organics a favour. I do not say they are right, just that is right from their perspective. If they are right or wrong in some hypothetical "eyes of the universe" is another matter, but  one could defiantly argue that it matters less as it is wrong in the eyes of the organics and they are on the receiving end.

[Ageless Face]

Duncaaaaaan wrote...


How am I advocating TIM's views? TIM was prohuman at the expense of other alien races. All I was saying was that it is better to take an enemy's technology if it's superior to your own, disassemble it, see how it works, replicate it, and then use it. Instead of just blowing it all up. That's just wasteful.

I agree with this. While fighting in a war, you should use everything you have. Mordin did that himself- took Meylon's data and used it to cure the genophage. He didn't create it, but still used it. 

You don't have to resort to your enemy's level to get his result, which can be right as much as yours is.

[Taboo]

MisterJB wrote...

Aiyie wrote...
now... what balances the scales if the Reapers, after billions of years of Reaping and laying waste to countless civilizations and trillions upon trillions of beings, are not destroyed?  sure, the cycle is ended, but there is no justice for those the Reapers already wiped out.

I don't see why "justice" has to come into the equation. Will killing the Reapers bring back the civilizations destroyed? No, in fact, one could argue you're just completing their genocide.

But if you want balance, how about using Reaper technology to improve the quality of life of all civilizations in the galaxy while, at the same time, preventing a future war between synthetics and organics?

By violating the way the universe functions?

You assume that people are going to want to share.

Even you admitted that it won't solve interpersonal problems.

[MisterJB]

Taboo-XX wrote...
Like you?
Your Shepard must be a jackass.
I sure as hell felt bad about it.

I adopt moral relativism. It's different.
And I felt bad about it, it simply had to be done. Same thing for Synthesis, I feel bad forcing it on everyone but it will be for the best.

[Izhalezan]

Billions, Trillions, maybe even Quadrillions of lives murdered horribly by the Reapers methods, and killing them is the bad thing to do..?

[poundoffleshaa]

Control is the ultimate Arrogance it is Shepard pitting his will against the Reapers to try and dominate them. Synthesis is a complete unknown option that the Reapers prefer no one could possibly know what it fully means and choosing on faith in the catalyst seems like a bad idea.

[Duncaaaaaan]

NUM13ER wrote...

I came to make sure the Reapers were gone. They were unspeakable monsters that perverted the course of history for maybe a billion years...no scenario where they continue to exist in any form was good enough. Destroy was the only option that definitely ended their existance.

Taking control of the Reapers seemed like a decidedly power-hungry option to me and Shepard had (not five minutes earlier) told the the Illusive Man that we weren't ready for such power. And I agreed. Controlling the Reapers means one day someone else could too or worse that Shep is forced to use them to police the galaxy like some sort of all knowing deity. Neither option fit very well with my paragon playthrough.

As for synthesis it flew in the face of everything I believed. Unity through diversity. The galaxies races coming together for one singular goal. And then some Reaper abomination tells me I should wipe away all that in order to make everyone similar. Even Wrex recognised that, although his clan was dominate, diversity among the Krogan was a necessary strength.

It doesn't matter what colour Destroy is hightlight with. It's what the choice actually means in relation to your characters goals and morals that matter.

Okay, but you're forgetting that without the Reapers existing, synthetics would have wiped life out of the galaxy and the universe a while ago, so Earth wouldn't exist, we wouldn't exist. The Reapers provided balance.

Were they really "unspeakable monsters that perverted the course of history for maybe a billion years" and "no scenario where they continue to exist in any form was good enough."?

[EsterCloat]

Paragon Shep blows a lot of stuff up, Collector Base being one example.

Anyway, all three endings are bad endings in some sense.

[Taboo]

MisterJB wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
Like you?
Your Shepard must be a jackass.
I sure as hell felt bad about it.

I adopt moral relativism. It's different.
And I felt bad about it, it simply had to be done. Same thing for Synthesis, I feel bad forcing it on everyone but it will be for the best.

Ethics always matter.

Violating everyone without their consent is wrong.

For the best?

Not if it doesn't solve our issues with each other.

All we have are upgraded Krogan.

[Grimwick]

MisterJB wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
Like you?
Your Shepard must be a jackass.
I sure as hell felt bad about it.

I adopt moral relativism. It's different.
And I felt bad about it, it simply had to be done. Same thing for Synthesis, I feel bad forcing it on everyone but it will be for the best.

We don't know if it will be for the best... at all.

It's forcing it on everyone for the vague idea suggested by the SC that it might in the slightest way work.

[Izhalezan]

Duncaaaaaan wrote...

Starbrat is the reaper king now?

"I know you've thought about destroying us"

"Or do you think you can control us?"