281 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

Vox Draco wrote...
 And if a different perspective allows me to view the horrible killing of entire races in a positive light, then I prefer to avoid that perspective...it reeks of the Reaper way of thinking I despise since ME1. But thank you for the insight in your mind

Close-mindedness is nothing to be proud of, my dear.

[Taboo]

ALL the choices are bad.

The only choice you decide on is how many people you violate and how long it lasts.

[Ageless Face]

Izhalezan wrote...

Billions, Trillions, maybe even Quadrillions of lives murdered horribly by the Reapers methods, and killing them is the bad thing to do..?

It's not really bad, but unnecessary. The reapers are not to blame for their actions, they are simply tools. And if you have the option to use a powerfull tool for a good cause, then why not?

[legion999]

xsdob wrote...

legion999 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Master Xanthan wrote...
Because if you spend too much time near Reaper tech you can get indoctrinated.

And if you spent too much time near radiation, you get cancer. But we found a way around that and use nuclear energy to power out cities, don't we?

Except the last time I checked I don't get irradiated from walking into or too near a nuclear power plant. I do get indoctrinated from going too close to Reaper tech however.

Explain how thanix cannon's could be created from soverigens destroyed body than?

Reverse enginnering, short exposure and the fact that Sovereign had no power as he had been blown to bits.

[Duncaaaaaan]

Also, from Starbrat:

"the peace won't last", in regards to the destroy ending.

Even though he's a brat, I take his word. The peace won't last. The galaxy will eventually emerge from the dark age and synthetics will just be made again.

Modifié par Duncaaaaaan, 25 mai 2012 - 08:23 .

[Taboo]

HagarIshay wrote...

Izhalezan wrote...

Billions, Trillions, maybe even Quadrillions of lives murdered horribly by the Reapers methods, and killing them is the bad thing to do..?

It's not really bad, but unnecessary. The reapers are not to blame for their actions, they are simply tools. And if you have the option to use a powerfull tool for a good cause, then why not?

Because ethics.

Those beings have been created by millions of lost soulds.

WELL?

[MisterJB]

Taboo-XX wrote...
Ethics always matter.
Violating everyone without their consent is wrong.
For the best?
Not if it doesn't solve our issues with each other.
All we have are upgraded Krogan.

Everyone invents their own ethics. How can we know which ones to follow?

And upgraded humans, turians, etc. A fundamental change in the way the galaxy works can lead to fundamental changes in phsycology, greater empathy, for instance.
Even if it doesn't, nuclear weapons have prevented wars in the past. The Council stopped the FCW because if humans and turians go all out, they can devastate the galaxy. Same principle applies.

[Taboo]

MisterJB wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
Ethics always matter.
Violating everyone without their consent is wrong.
For the best?
Not if it doesn't solve our issues with each other.
All we have are upgraded Krogan.

Everyone invents their own ethics. How can we know which ones to follow?

And upgraded humans, turians, etc. A fundamental change in the way the galaxy works can lead to fundamental changes in phsycology, greater empathy, for instance.
Even if it doesn't, nuclear weapons have prevented wars in the past. The Council stopped the FCW because if humans and turians go all out, they can devastate the galaxy. Same principle applies.

By force. BY FORCE.

You remind me of the OMM in THX 1138

"Be Happy."

[legion999]

Duncaaaaaan wrote...

Also, from Starbrat:

"the peace won't last", in regards to the destroy ending.

Even though he's a brat, I take his word. The peace won't last. The galaxy will eventually emerge from the dark age and synthetics will just be made again.

Like in Synthesis and Control.

[MisterJB]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
Given that these reapers have done wrong and that I need to destroy them, do I need to know all that? We must show our enemy no quarter.

You don't need to destroy them. You need to stop the Cycle.
Well, guess what, there are three different ways to do that and only one makes you act like a damn neanderthal.

[Alien1099]

Duncaaaaaan wrote...

 If paragon Shepard is supposed to be a pragmatist and wants fairness to all, then surely controlling the Reapers or fusing organics with them so that the Reaper's purpose no longer exists is the best thing to do, as a paragon Shepard who makes paragon choices, hence blue/green.

Destroy is red, because it's a typically renegade thing to do. Shepard just blows everything up like the usual renegade jerk. It's wasteful and crass.

Yes because allowing a sentient race of machines that have committed countless acts of genocide over hundreds of millions of years to continue their existence is good.

Folk the reapers. They can all burn in cybernetic hell for the countless sentient civilizations they completely obliterated in the name of protecting them. It's a shame Bioware wrote taht stupidity about wiping out the Geth if you choose the red explosion. I just pretend that part didn't happen.

The whole thing is a sham. Not all civilizations were turned into reapers. So how did the reapers benefit those races that were utterly destroyed like the Protheans? 

[Xellith]

HagarIshay wrote...

Izhalezan wrote...

Billions, Trillions, maybe even Quadrillions of lives murdered horribly by the Reapers methods, and killing them is the bad thing to do..?

It's not really bad, but unnecessary. The reapers are not to blame for their actions, they are simply tools. And if you have the option to use a powerfull tool for a good cause, then why not?

So you believe the star child then?  The one who contradicts the entire trilogy in the last 5 mins? 

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Duncaaaaaan wrote...

Okay, but you're forgetting that without the Reapers existing, synthetics would have wiped life out of the galaxy and the universe a while ago, so Earth wouldn't exist, we wouldn't exist. The Reapers provided balance.

Were they really "unspeakable monsters that perverted the course of history for maybe a billion years" and "no scenario where they continue to exist in any form was good enough."?

You're sure about that? Earth would exist. Synthetics wiping out organics? Who knows. That may not ever have happened. The Protheans turned the tide in their war against the synthetics then reapers arrived. The Quarians turned the tide in their war against the Geth then the reapers arrived. Who's to say this wouldn't have happened in all the cycles before them?

Would humans have evolved? Perhaps not. Perhaps earth would have been colonized during past 65 million years, but the Inusannon didn't colonize earth, nor did the Protheans, nor did the cycles before the Inusannon. So maybe humans would have evolved.

What the reapers take away is hope. Without hope organics might as well be machines. Destroy provides hope that organics can find their own way.

[legion999]

MisterJB wrote...

legion999 wrote...
What about the Krogan then? And the Vorcha? And other races not ready for such advancements?
Also Reaper tech would jump us further a lot more than the Prothean archive.

And there was war and genocide. Over three games in fact.

We will share the technology and attempt to school them in responsible use. But we will not halt our advancement because of other races.

And any war humanity was involved in did not come about due to technological advancement.

And if they don't use it responsibly just ignore them then? Wipe them out becUse we're too impatient to let nature take its course?

And your last statement is false in Mass Effect and in the real world.

[Iakus]

 Conreol epilogue:

A few months or years later, the Reapers return, destroying everything.  But their battle cry is no longer "I am the vanguard of your destruction", or "Embrace perfection" or even "Your worlds will be our laboratories"

It's the echo of a human voice crying out "Quiet!  Please!  Make it stop!"  

[Duncaaaaaan]

legion999 wrote...

Duncaaaaaan wrote...

Also, from Starbrat:

"the peace won't last", in regards to the destroy ending.

Even though he's a brat, I take his word. The peace won't last. The galaxy will eventually emerge from the dark age and synthetics will just be made again.

Like in Synthesis and Control.

Fair enough for the control ending, if the Reapers are just commanded to leave forever, then perhaps synthetics will destroy all life, but in synthesis I think there would be peace.

[Taboo]

MisterJB wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
Given that these reapers have done wrong and that I need to destroy them, do I need to know all that? We must show our enemy no quarter.

You don't need to destroy them. You need to stop the Cycle.
Well, guess what, there are three different ways to do that and only one makes you act like a damn neanderthal.

And the others into a hubris laden monster.

Jesus Christ.

[TheWerdna]

Funny thing is, my Shepard is very paragon and destroy was a no brainer for me. Control is too much of a unknown, how do i know that Shepard can actually keep the Reapers under control (They could very well overpower him) or that he won't be corupted by the power in the long run and the cycle will just begin anew. Synthesis is forcibly altering everyone against their will. In addition doing so is saying that there is no way for peace between Synthetics and organics because we are too different, and the only way for peace to work is for everyone to be the same.

Worse, both of those options allow the Reapers to live and could be a threat once more in the future. (Also, notice in both Control and Synthesis that whole he is disintegration, Shepard's eyes become identical to the Illusive Man's. This is a sure sign of Reaper influence, hinting that those options mean doing what the Reapers want)

Destroy is the only way to end the threat of the Reapers once and for all. It is the only way that guarantees the galaxy will be free from the Reaper's influence. Thus in my mind it is the best solution of those given (I hate all the options, I just hate Destroy a bit less then the other two)

Modifié par TheWerdna, 25 mai 2012 - 08:32 .

[Aiyie]

MisterJB wrote...

Aiyie wrote...
now... what balances the scales if the Reapers, after billions of years of Reaping and laying waste to countless civilizations and trillions upon trillions of beings, are not destroyed?  sure, the cycle is ended, but there is no justice for those the Reapers already wiped out.

I don't see why "justice" has to come into the equation. Will killing the Reapers bring back the civilizations destroyed? No, in fact, one could argue you're just completing their genocide.

But if you want balance, how about using Reaper technology to improve the quality of life of all civilizations in the galaxy while, at the same time, preventing a future war between synthetics and organics?

i don't particularly feel like getting into a huge moral philosophy discussion, but suffice to say that nobody has ever given me reason to believe that at its core, morality is not dependent on justice.

justice is also a balancing of the scales.  it is retribution as compensation for crimes committed.

here's the rub, anything you do besides destroy benefits only this cycle.  previous cycles do not get any justice.  their sacrifices are made meaningless by allowing the reapers to live.  not only that, you justify the destruction of all those countless civilizations.

in essence, by not destroying the reapers, you are rationalizing genocide as being acceptable if you benefit from it.  by extension, that also means that if someone thought they'd benefit from it, they'd be justified in murdering and raping anyone they wanted.

i just can't buy that line of thinking.  it very rarely leads to good things in the end.

whats the old saying... "the path to hell is paved with good intentions."

Modifié par Aiyie, 25 mai 2012 - 08:43 .

[poundoffleshaa]

If you accept the Reapers as necessary then why fight them, you mays as well die for the future you will never see.

Modifié par poundoffleshaa, 25 mai 2012 - 08:33 .

[Iakus]

 Epilogue for Synthesis:

After Shepard is dissolved in the green space magic, and every living being is made partly synthetic, the Catalyst's eyes begin to glow.  A booming, Harbinger-like voice echoes from the Catalyst across the galaxy

"Assuming direct control"

And then there was peace. 

Modifié par iakus, 25 mai 2012 - 08:36 .

[Kunari801]

I do not take pity on the Reapers, they should have been left as the mysterious monsters they were in ME1 and ME2 instead of Star-brat's power-tool.

Like the Collectors, it's a mercy to free them from Star-brat's indoctrination.

[Vox Draco]

MisterJB wrote...

Vox Draco wrote...
 And if a different perspective allows me to view the horrible killing of entire races in a positive light, then I prefer to avoid that perspective...it reeks of the Reaper way of thinking I despise since ME1. But thank you for the insight in your mind

Close-mindedness is nothing to be proud of, my dear.

I am proud that I will never consider liquifying people a good thing, thank you. And please, spare me and yourself that patronizing "my dear".

[Aiyie]

MisterJB wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
Like you?
Your Shepard must be a jackass.
I sure as hell felt bad about it.

I adopt moral relativism. It's different.
And I felt bad about it, it simply had to be done. Same thing for Synthesis, I feel bad forcing it on everyone but it will be for the best.

if you truly adopt moral relativism, you wouldn't force a moral choice on others by advocating for synthesis.

after all, moral relativism states that morality is subjective to each individual, and that no one moral view is more or less "right" than any other... you cannot be willing to force your morality on others, without their consent, and still claim to support relative morality.

what you are actually supporting is called act utilitarianism.  which, while telling us anything is morally right if it benefits others, also necessarily disregards the morality of the individual by its enactment.

[NUM13ER]

Duncaaaaaan wrote...
Okay, but you're forgetting that without the Reapers existing, synthetics would have wiped life out of the galaxy and the universe a while ago, so Earth wouldn't exist, we wouldn't exist. The Reapers provided balance.

Were they really "unspeakable monsters that perverted the course of history for maybe a billion years" and "no scenario where they continue to exist in any form was good enough."?

Without the Reapers we have no idea what the galaxy would have been like now. We have no idea where evolution would have taken those countless races eradicated for "the greater good." The Star Child may have encountered a synthetic-organic war unlike anything we've ever seen. But that it's experience from an event millions of years ago, that formed a solution so horrific that's it's little wonder his creators tried to destroy him.

The Reapers have created a system that allows life to evolve along certain paths so they contain the threat. However for all we know this system actually brings about a greater chance of creating sentient synthetics and is in fact self-propelling. They intend to impose order on evolutions chaos but nothing would not exist without it. The Protheans had finally turned the tide against synthetics before the Reapers arrived to "save them." Who's to say they couldn't win and prevent future uprisings?

As for them not being monsters. I believe sometimes extreme measures must be taken to ensure the survival of the galaxy. That's why I regretfully chose to destroy the Geth along with the Reapers. They have wiped out countless trillions, derailed the natural order, denied organics the right to evolve beyond are limitations to cipe with synthetics and worse of all turn races into the very abominations that wiped out their races. All based on a notion that something that could happen, rather than will. They're painly evil.

Modifié par NUM13ER, 25 mai 2012 - 08:44 .