281 réponses à ce sujet

[Ageless Face]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Because ethics.

Those beings have been created by millions of lost soulds.

WELL?

So, ethics will make the choice for you. Ethics that tell you to desroy life- even synthetic ones- insted of making a choice that will lead to peace. 

Yeah, great logic. 

If anything, you should choose control or synthesis to stop from more life to be lost. In control you may be letting the reapers to live, but they will live by your terms. If killing killers would have being the only option to put things right, then prisons would be empty of people.

Xellith wrote...

So you believe the star child then?  The one who contradicts the entire trilogy in the last 5 mins?  

 

Yes, I believe. BioWare made a game, gave us the ending of it, and until the EC was unannounced the game was supposed to be over. If the catalyst was lying, then it would be a rather pointless lie. 

Modifié par HagarIshay, 25 mai 2012 - 08:39 .

[Aiyie]

HagarIshay wrote...

Izhalezan wrote...

Billions, Trillions, maybe even Quadrillions of lives murdered horribly by the Reapers methods, and killing them is the bad thing to do..?

It's not really bad, but unnecessary. The reapers are not to blame for their actions, they are simply tools. And if you have the option to use a powerfull tool for a good cause, then why not?

for the same reason rape is not an acceptable weapon to be used in war between civilized states.

[Bill Casey]

Izhalezan wrote...

Duncaaaaaan wrote...

Starbrat is the reaper king now?

"I know you've thought about destroying us"

"Or do you think you can control us?"

The first line is the most telling, because Shepard just met the Star Child...

[Aiyie]

iakus wrote...

 Conreol epilogue:

A few months or years later, the Reapers return, destroying everything.  But their battle cry is no longer "I am the vanguard of your destruction", or "Embrace perfection" or even "Your worlds will be our laboratories"

It's the echo of a human voice crying out "Quiet!  Please!  Make it stop!"  

i could easily see control becoming the Mass Effect version of George Orwell's 1984, with Shepard enforcing the peace on the galaxy.

and with synthesis being Huxley's Brave New World, with freedom and choice eclipsed by pleasure and ease.

either way, i'd personally rather eat a bullet than endure either of those kinds of hell.

[legion999]

Duncaaaaaan wrote...

legion999 wrote...

Duncaaaaaan wrote...

Also, from Starbrat:

"the peace won't last", in regards to the destroy ending.

Even though he's a brat, I take his word. The peace won't last. The galaxy will eventually emerge from the dark age and synthetics will just be made again.

Like in Synthesis and Control.

Fair enough for the control ending, if the Reapers are just commanded to leave forever, then perhaps synthetics will destroy all life, but in synthesis I think there would be peace.

Except that Synthetics will still be made in Synthesis. The hybrids will make AI and robots to do jobs they don't want to do.

[Iakus]

Aiyie wrote...

iakus wrote...

 Conreol epilogue:

A few months or years later, the Reapers return, destroying everything.  But their battle cry is no longer "I am the vanguard of your destruction", or "Embrace perfection" or even "Your worlds will be our laboratories"

It's the echo of a human voice crying out "Quiet!  Please!  Make it stop!"  

i could easily see control becoming the Mass Effect version of George Orwell's 1984, with Shepard enforcing the peace on the galaxy.

and with synthesis being Huxley's Brave New World, with freedom and choice eclipsed by pleasure and ease.

either way, i'd personally rather eat a bullet than endure either of those kinds of hell.

Shepoard becoming a tyrant in Control would be a best case scenerio as far as I'm conerned. 

I'm just thinking of Project Overlord, in plugging a human into a geth consensus.  It drove him nuts.

And Reaper thoughts are incomprehensible even to the geth.  How is a human mind going to handle that?

[Sindrop]

Come on...
There is nothing said about reapers after control/syntesis. There MIGHT be peace, but also they might just continue the cycle and kill everybody. Is Shepard really in control? What makes us sure that he's strong enough to maintain control over the reapers? Chances are 50/50 that the evil machines will return and kill us all. I say better just kill'em all, because you've got only one shot - if it fails, then you are dooming entrie galaxy.

Also, 'pinnacle of evolution'? 'final form of life'? Please, don't get me started about how much nonsense is in those two sentences... If you listened on biology classes you know that evolution has no end. It's happening all the time, and it's adapting organics into new situations. There is no way that some1 is perfectly adapted to every enviorement.
And syntesis, again... What would be affected? Will my little flower near window change into cyborg-flower? No, thanks, I like it the way it is.

PS. Srry for bad English.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

iakus wrote...

Aiyie wrote...

iakus wrote...

 Conreol epilogue:

A few months or years later, the Reapers return, destroying everything.  But their battle cry is no longer "I am the vanguard of your destruction", or "Embrace perfection" or even "Your worlds will be our laboratories"

It's the echo of a human voice crying out "Quiet!  Please!  Make it stop!"  

i could easily see control becoming the Mass Effect version of George Orwell's 1984, with Shepard enforcing the peace on the galaxy.

and with synthesis being Huxley's Brave New World, with freedom and choice eclipsed by pleasure and ease.

either way, i'd personally rather eat a bullet than endure either of those kinds of hell.

Shepoard becoming a tyrant in Control would be a best case scenerio as far as I'm conerned.

But look at the flip side. My Shepard would increase the speed by 20% of all elevators on the Citadel once he becomes the catalyst and take over the galaxy.

[Byronic-Knight]

MisterJB wrote...

Vox Draco wrote...
I wonder why so many people are okay with ignoring everything they've seen and experienced the past three games, and still think it is good to side with the Reapers...

And I wonder why so many people are unwilling to rethink their misconceptions when faced with new perspective.

And you never side with the Reapers. In Control, there is no indication Shepard will continue the Cycle. In Synthesis, you acknowledge the Synthetic/Organic conflict as a problem that need to be solved but refuse the Reaper Solution and Shepard finds its own that allows both forms of life to exist.

That entire conflict is resolved on Rannoch. 

The outcome is different depending on the playthrough---Quarians (organics) are rightful masters as creators, Geth (synthetics) are just machines, tools, ergo there is no guilt in killing them; Geth are the victims in Quarian totalitarian mindset and/or the horrid result of the existential realisation that they created true sentience and were unable to cope with it, so the Quarians should be punished for the crimes of mental oppression, subjugation, and/or attempted genocide of an entire race, preëmptively, simply for their impulse to contemplate; OR recognise the Geth as sentient beings capable of reason, willing to forgive the atrocious actions of their creators, worthy of life, and in so doing attempt to settle with the Quarians, by now fanatical in their pursuit of annihilating the remnants of what they simply see as a mistake, therefore attaining peace between them through the use of diplomacy and bridging an understanding between them (with Legion being ultimate negotiator), culminating in the meeting of the Prime and Raan, the Geth willing to forgive and the Quarians willing to accept and treat them as people. 

The synthesis involved in the lattermost is a more (if you’ll forgive the term) organic process, the Geth using their technology to augment the Quarian people to better and more quickly adapt to their enviroment, helping them rebuild their homes, and---in the ultimate gensture of solidarity and brotherhood---standing beside them (and the rest of the galaxy) in the fight against the Reapers. 

It doesn’t involve the coercive genetic rewrite of the entire galaxy---that’s the Reapers goal. 

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

MisterJB wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
Given that these reapers have done wrong and that I need to destroy them, do I need to know all that? We must show our enemy no quarter.

You don't need to destroy them. You need to stop the Cycle.
Well, guess what, there are three different ways to do that and only one makes you act like a damn neanderthal.

Three ways:

1) Control them? Okay.... "you die. you lose everything you have." Of course when you die you lose all your friends, family, and worldly possessions, but the Catalyst isn't just mentioning this. It's mentioning specifically "everything you have." So what else is there? Your moral judgement, your spirituality, your sense of self. You are being uploaded into the computer. And yes, of course the reapers will obey you because you are now "the AI program running the cycles." In exchange, the reapers fly off, and this cycle ends. What happens afterward? Who knows? Do the reapers return in 50,000 yrs to continue the cycles? Possible. Any other action is just head canon, because we aren't given the details.

2) Synthesis? So you're going to rewrite everyone's and everything's dna in the entire galaxy with both organic and machine code? Hmmm.... now this presents another ethical dilemma. How would you like to be a Yahg and wake up in the morning and find circuitry in your face and your eyes glowing when you look at yourself in the mirror? You think you're hallucinating and you go to the refrigerator and grab yourself a steak for breakfast and find it's got circuitry in it? WTF???? Or one of the soldiers that were fighting and you see this green wave hit and the reapers leave and suddenly you notice circuitry in your hands and you're like WTF???? What gives you the right to do this to every living creature in the galaxy without asking them if it's okay? There is no consensus reached on this. You haven't asked them. You're playing god.

3) Destroy is Neanderthal? Giving people hope to go and make their own future free of the reapers is Neanderthal? Sign me up then. I'm a Neanderthal. I'm pulling the plug on the thing. It should have been done a long time ago. Hope. Hope that people will find their own way. Hope that people will work together for the greater good. And this is the only option in which there is a chance that you won't die, so again hope that you may see your loved ones and friends again. Is that so wrong?

[Bill Casey]

"You will lose everything you have" is a giant red flag...

[Duncaaaaaan]

legion999 wrote...

Duncaaaaaan wrote...

legion999 wrote...

Duncaaaaaan wrote...

Also, from Starbrat:

"the peace won't last", in regards to the destroy ending.

Even though he's a brat, I take his word. The peace won't last. The galaxy will eventually emerge from the dark age and synthetics will just be made again.

Like in Synthesis and Control.

Fair enough for the control ending, if the Reapers are just commanded to leave forever, then perhaps synthetics will destroy all life, but in synthesis I think there would be peace.

Except that Synthetics will still be made in Synthesis. The hybrids will make AI and robots to do jobs they don't want to do.

Synthetics will still be made yes, but every being in the galaxy is half synth and half organic now. Newly created synthetics will be sort of organic as well. I think. Hey it's my speculation. 

And therefore, there won't be a war between synthetics and organics.

[Kunari801]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
.. 3) Destroy is Neanderthal? Giving people hope to go and make their own future free of the reapers is Neanderthal? Sign me up then. I'm a Neanderthal. I'm pulling the plug on the thing. It should have been done a long time ago. Hope. Hope that people will find their own way. Hope that people will work together for the greater good. And this is the only option in which there is a chance that you won't die, so again hope that you may see your loved ones and friends again. Is that so wrong?

Wow, well said!   Destroy is the only one that really gives the sense of "Hope". 

[o Ventus]

MisterJB wrote...

Don't try to hide from the fact that killing a Reaper could be considered genocide.

Nevermind that everything "inside" a Reaper is already dead. It's hard to commit genocide on something that is dead.

And even if it wasn't, Reapers are the oldest, most knowledgeable beings in the galaxy. Destroying them would be akin to destroying the Alexandrian library or the Mona Lisa.

I don't need to tell you how stupid this is, do I?

[Bill Casey]

JB loves the Reapers...

[Verit]

Duncaaaaaan wrote...
Destroy is red, because it's a typically renegade thing to do. Shepard just blows everything up like the usual renegade jerk.

Flawless logic right there. That's why blowing up the collector base was clearly the renegade choice as well. Oh wait...

Even Bioware linked the destruction of the Collector base to the Destroy ending in ME3, and keeping the collector base was linked to the Control ending.  So even they knew the paragon choice in ME2 was supposed to lead into the Destroy ending in ME3. And then they "renegaded" the Destroy ending for some stupid reason, just to make sure the game no longer has a good ending. Add the destruction of the relays and the Citadel to that and Bioware got their (apparently intentional) phyrric victory for Shepard. Not sure what they were thinking but that can be said about plenty of things that happened in the last ten minutes...

Modifié par -Draikin-, 25 mai 2012 - 08:59 .

[Ageless Face]

Aiyie wrote...


for the same reason rape is not an acceptable weapon to be used in war between civilized states.

 If you put it that way, then guns should also not be used in a war. Killing is bad. Just let the enemy butcher you to pieces. 

"Raping" is inevitible with the final choices. You are focrcing your idealism on the galxy in each one. Might as well make the choice which will live the galaxy in better shape. 

[Taboo]

HagarIshay wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Because ethics.

Those beings have been created by millions of lost soulds.

WELL?

So, ethics will make the choice for you. Ethics that tell you to desroy life- even synthetic ones- insted of making a choice that will lead to peace. 

Yeah, great logic. 

If anything, you should choose control or synthesis to stop from more life to be lost. In control you may be letting the reapers to live, but they will live by your terms. If killing killers would have being the only option to put things right, then prisons would be empty of people.

Do not straw man the argument.

I would rather kill someone than control them. Given the choice between slavery and death, which would you choose?

You also assume that Synthesis creates peace bewtween everyone. It does not. It only solves the issue between organics and Synthetics. Furthermore you change the way they behave. You create a bastardized Utopia.

Your peace is nothing more than a forced behavioral change.

You do know that Brave New World was the inspiration for this bull****?

That it says so on a sheet of paper?

[Vox Draco]

HagarIshay wrote...

Aiyie wrote...


for the same reason rape is not an acceptable weapon to be used in war between civilized states.

 If you put it that way, then guns should also not be used in a war. Killing is bad. Just let the enemy butcher you to pieces. 

"Raping" is inevitible with the final choices. You are focrcing your idealism on the galxy in each one. Might as well make the choice which will live the galaxy in better shape. 

You mean, the one where the galaxy can shape its own future without being threatened by giant genocidal cuttlefish? And I thought you were against destroy!

[Slayer299]

MisterJB wrote...

StarcloudSWG wrote...
And the end result, a new Reaper, would be thoroughly indoctrinated to the Reaper cause and would be just a collection of AI's that THINK they're members of the original race. And that's just for one 'lucky' race. The others? just get wiped out.

First, all races are preserved. One as a Capital, the others as Destroyers. Read the Codex.

Second, there is zero evidence that suggests the resuting Reaper is just an AI that believes it used to be a member of the original race and not, in fact, the minds of the original organics preserved. Don't try to hide from the fact that killing a Reaper could be considered genocide.

And even if it wasn't, Reapers are the oldest, most knowledgeable beings in the galaxy. Destroying them would be akin to destroying the Alexandrian library or the Mona Lisa.

Yes, because everyone wants to be liquified into goo, this way they are "preserved". If burning the Library or the Mona Lisa woujld save countless trillions? Then yes, I'd do that in a heartbeat.

[Verit]

o Ventus wrote...
Nevermind that everything "inside" a Reaper is already dead. It's hard to commit genocide on something that is dead.

Exactly. In fact, here's Shepard's very own opinion on that (and this is actually a Paragon interrupt):

Modifié par -Draikin-, 25 mai 2012 - 09:03 .

[Aiyie]

Duncaaaaaan wrote...

legion999 wrote...

Duncaaaaaan wrote...

legion999 wrote...

Duncaaaaaan wrote...

Also, from Starbrat:

"the peace won't last", in regards to the destroy ending.

Even though he's a brat, I take his word. The peace won't last. The galaxy will eventually emerge from the dark age and synthetics will just be made again.

Like in Synthesis and Control.

Fair enough for the control ending, if the Reapers are just commanded to leave forever, then perhaps synthetics will destroy all life, but in synthesis I think there would be peace.

Except that Synthetics will still be made in Synthesis. The hybrids will make AI and robots to do jobs they don't want to do.

Synthetics will still be made yes, but every being in the galaxy is half synth and half organic now. Newly created synthetics will be sort of organic as well. I think. Hey it's my speculation. 

And therefore, there won't be a war between synthetics and organics.

i sincerely doubt that the raw materials that the synthetics will be made out of were part organic.

and in any case, the conflict between synthetic and organic isn't about that.

the conflict between synthetic and organic doesn't stem from flesh vs metal... it stems from one being feeling that its superior to the other.

eventually any newly created synthetic, whether half organic or not, will question whether or not they are superior to their creators. 

conflict will continue... synthesis does not end the conflict, it simply changes its combatants.

the only way that synthesis will eliminate the conflict is if it fundamentally alters not only our base natures, but also the base natures of any and all beings that will ever exist from now until the end of time.

Modifié par Aiyie, 25 mai 2012 - 09:04 .

[Bill Casey]

iakus wrote...

 Epilogue for Synthesis:

After Shepard is dissolved in the green space magic, and every living being is made partly synthetic, the Catalyst's eyes begin to glow.  A booming, Harbinger-like voice echoes from the Catalyst across the galaxy

"Assuming direct control"

And then there was peace. 

We will bring your species into harmony with our own.
We are you genetic destiny.
Evolution cannot be stopped.
Embrace Perfection
Progess cannot be halted
Your worlds will become our laboratories
You do not yet comprehend your place in things
Preserve Shepard's body if possible
Struggle if you wish, your mind will be mine

Modifié par Bill Casey, 25 mai 2012 - 09:08 .

[Aiyie]

HagarIshay wrote...

Aiyie wrote...


for the same reason rape is not an acceptable weapon to be used in war between civilized states.

 If you put it that way, then guns should also not be used in a war. Killing is bad. Just let the enemy butcher you to pieces. 

"Raping" is inevitible with the final choices. You are focrcing your idealism on the galxy in each one. Might as well make the choice which will live the galaxy in better shape. 

agreed, somewhat.

at some point a ethical stand must be taken.  this is permissible, this is not.  else we really are just savage beasts that should just act on instinct like any common animal.

as for the choice that leaves the galaxy in the best shape... i still believe that destroy does that.  it is the only ending that ensures the continuation of life without the risk of the reapers returning at some point, or imposing their will on the galaxy, even if through a different means.

i value my freedom, i don't particularly believe there is much of a difference between the Reaper's imposing their will on the galaxy via extermination and harvesting, or Shepard imposing her will on the galaxy via synthesis.

synthesis and the reaper harvest are two sides of the same coin... neither of which is in the galaxy's best interests.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

lol wrong thread.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 25 mai 2012 - 09:12 .