281 réponses à ce sujet

[SP2219]

Duncaaaaaan wrote...

 If paragon Shepard is supposed to be a pragmatist and wants fairness to all, then surely controlling the Reapers or fusing organics with them so that the Reaper's purpose no longer exists is the best thing to do, as a paragon Shepard who makes paragon choices, hence blue/green.

Destroy is red, because it's a typically renegade thing to do. Shepard just blows everything up like the usual renegade jerk. It's wasteful and crass.

Personally, that is the biggest load of nonsense I have ever heard.  Shepards role as a character was to fight the Reapers.  To oppose them.  Not to fulfill their goals, not to try and find a common ground with them, certainly not to listen to anything they have to say.  To oppose them.  

Speaking of "fairness to all" do you think fusing organic beings with machines is a particulalry fair thing to do?  How would you feel if somebody you've never met or heard of, magically transformed you such that you were not human anymore, and without your consent?  That to me sounds very unfair.  Paragon Shepard was about giving people control of their own lives, not taking it away from them.  Synthesis is not something paragon or renegade Shepard would do, it's something a complete idiot Shepard would do.  It is the most stupid thing anyone could have done in that situation.

All Shepard had to do was stand still, or at least investigate the option.  Sure he would die, but what would that mean for everyone else?  That would be pretty interesting - what would happen if Shepard refused to activate the Crucible?  Wow what a brilliant idea!  You've got yourself a dramatic moment right there, because the real choice is explored, and real choice is where we tie up all our emotional angst.   Was anyone going to push Shepard into the beam?  Was anyone forcing him to put his hands on the glowing joysticks, or forcing him to shoot the tube?   No.  Shepard was completely free to explore the option of rejecting the Catalyst, by standing still and waiting for a different outcome, not walking to his death like a bumbling idiot.

I certainly would have explored that choice in the same siutuation.  "Hey, Mr Catalyst kid, deus ex machina contrived plot device from planet stupid.  What happens if I don't choose one of these three options?"

That was all Shepard had to say.  Explore the choice.  That is what writing a story is all about.  That's where the emotion is.  If you don't explore a choice in any situation, the human element is gone, and there is no emotion.  You are left with something that is meaningless.  That's exactly what the ending is. It's meaningless.  

[TheClonesLegacy]

I hate mint and Lime Flavours Gimme Cherry anyday
Also when did Paragon shep ever want Fairness to REAPERS! I played Paragon and I was never like that.

Modifié par TheClonesLegacy, 26 mai 2012 - 12:32 .

[chuckles471]

Colours help me choose things as making conscious choices hurts my head. I have a red Bicycle and it is called fury so I blew up bad ghost boy.

[CarolSephard]

Duncaaaaaan wrote...

 If paragon Shepard is supposed to be a pragmatist and wants fairness to all, then surely controlling the Reapers or fusing organics with them so that the Reaper's purpose no longer exists is the best thing to do, as a paragon Shepard who makes paragon choices, hence blue/green.

Destroy is red, because it's a typically renegade thing to do. Shepard just blows everything up like the usual renegade jerk. It's wasteful and crass.

wasn't Shepard the one who said something like "we will win this war without sacrificing the soul of our species"?

Also, at final encounter with TIM, Shepard sais "you are playing with things you don't understand. With power you shouldn't be able to use", then TIM asks Shepard: "If we can control it, why shouldn't it be ours?" and the paragon answer for that question is: "Because we are not ready"

It doesn't seem control and synthesis could be options for paragon

[Zulmoka531]

chuckles471 wrote...

Colours help me choose things as making conscious choices hurts my head. I have a red Bicycle and it is called fury so I blew up bad ghost boy.

Totally explains Rosebud at the end of Citizen Kane then.

[OH-UP-THIS!]

Destroy is the only solution, I couldn't give a flyin' frag about, striking a "deal" with those overindulgent, self-entitled bugs.

The other *solutions* aren't any solution at all, the Reapers are still functional, irregardless of your personal perspectives, those Boshtets must be destroyed.

We haven't enough info regarding their condition, AFTER the choice, so ASSumptions abound.

If you believe for one second that, *control* or *synthesis* is possible, prepare your favourite room in the Asylum, and enjoy your stay.

[RADIUMEYEZ]

ohupthis wrote...

Destroy is the only solution, I couldn't give a flyin' frag about, striking a "deal" with those overindulgent, self-entitled bugs.

The other *solutions* aren't any solution at all, the Reapers are still functional, irregardless of your personal perspectives, those Boshtets must be destroyed.

We haven't enough info regarding their condition, AFTER the choice, so ASSumptions abound.

If you believe for one second that, *control* or *synthesis* is possible, prepare your favourite room in the Asylum, and enjoy your stay.

This for me as well

[moater boat]

Duncaaaaaan wrote...

 If paragon Shepard is supposed to be a pragmatist and wants fairness to all

Paragon Shepard is idealistic, not pragmatic. You entire argument is invalid because you don't even understand the words you are trying to use.
/thread

[Master Xanthan]

MisterJB wrote...

Master Xanthan wrote...
Because if you spend too much time near Reaper tech you can get indoctrinated.

And if you spent too much time near radiation, you get cancer. But we found a way around that and use nuclear energy to power out cities, don't we?

And yet cancer is still a huge problem. 

[moater boat]

Master Xanthan wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Master Xanthan wrote...
Because if you spend too much time near Reaper tech you can get indoctrinated.

And if you spent too much time near radiation, you get cancer. But we found a way around that and use nuclear energy to power out cities, don't we?

And yet cancer is still a huge problem. 

This is totally unrelated, but nuclear power plants don't really cause an increase in cancer rates in the general populace.

[o Ventus]

moater boat wrote...

Master Xanthan wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Master Xanthan wrote...
Because if you spend too much time near Reaper tech you can get indoctrinated.

And if you spent too much time near radiation, you get cancer. But we found a way around that and use nuclear energy to power out cities, don't we?

And yet cancer is still a huge problem. 

This is totally unrelated, but nuclear power plants don't really cause an increase in cancer rates in the general populace.

People also don't live inside the reactors, do they? There's a reason plants aren't typically smack dab in the city center.

[cyrslash1974]

No end is good once you understand that Starchild logic is wrong. Peace between synthetics and organics can be possible. Rannoch is a hope.

[daecath]

Oh, absolutely. Control is a great ending. We finally catch up with Adolf Hitler after he's slaughtered millions of innocent Jews, and instead of putting a bullet in his head, we slap a leash on him. Every person that had family and friends who died at the hands of the reapers can be comforted by the knowledge that the reapers are still out there. All the people who were turned into horrible abominations, get to live on as horrible abominations. Yeah, that's a happy ending.

And synthesis is even worse. It's impossible for people to live in peace if they have differences, so we're going to make them all the same. You've just validated the work of such humanitarian groups like the KKK, the 3rd Reich, etc. etc. etc. Way to go, you should be proud of yourself. Sieg Heil.

At least with destroy, you end the reaper threat. Yes you have to sacrifice friends to do it, but everyone knows the stakes. The geth and EDI both are willing to die for what they believe in, and if that's what it takes, so be it.

Of course, the entire premise of the ending was crap anyway, so why should the ending options be any different?

Modifié par daecath, 26 mai 2012 - 01:26 .

[zovoes]

cyrslash1974 wrote...

No end is good once you understand that Starchild logic is wrong. Peace between synthetics and organics can be possible. Rannoch is a hope.

Hope? It’s the end all be all, there is peace end of story. Or it would be if walters didn’t feel he had to go didactic in the last five minutes and give us a ham fisted moral that we had got a looooooong time ago and in such a way as to break it in doing so.  

edit: damn format

Modifié par zovoes, 26 mai 2012 - 01:28 .

[Xx_Belzak_xX]

 Sorry, but Control and Synthesis are both bad endings. I refuse to advocate playing God. That's exactly what you're doing by controling the reapers, or forcing synthesis on the galaxay. Control and Synthesis is forcing your will on other people, thus playing God.

As Nassana Dantius said in Mass Effect 2 "Who the hell gave you the right to play god?"

Modifié par Xx_Belzak_xX, 26 mai 2012 - 01:29 .

[PSjoh]

but killing all geth and reapers (they might be monsters but you still kill them)
is not playing god?
all three choices involve you playing god,listen to starchild, agree or disagree and FORCE your will on everyone.

[moater boat]

PSjoh wrote...

but killing all geth and reapers (they might be monsters but you still kill them)
is not playing god?
all three choices involve you playing god,listen to starchild, agree or disagree and FORCE your will on everyone.

That is not playing God because the Reapers are the enemy in a war to the death, and the Geth are willing volunteers that placed themselves under military command.

[PSjoh]

You can't just exterminate the enemy because it is the enemy, you obviously want to exterminate the enemy. Those you want to exterminate are your enemy by default, so this justifies extermination...

Just because its a necessary evil doesn't mean it good, or should be encouraged, you just got to do what you got to do.
come to think of it, how often has war ended with the extermination of one side? people like their existance to much, they prefer submition or assimilation (some rather die, i know).
I think i just found a new meaning to the ending: You have won, what do you do with your enemy?

[Helios969]

daecath wrote...

Oh, absolutely. Control is a great ending. We finally catch up with Adolf Hitler after he's slaughtered millions of innocent Jews, and instead of putting a bullet in his head, we slap a leash on him. Every person that had family and friends who died at the hands of the reapers can be comforted by the knowledge that the reapers are still out there. All the people who were turned into horrible abominations, get to live on as horrible abominations. Yeah, that's a happy ending.

And synthesis is even worse. It's impossible for people to live in peace if they have differences, so we're going to make them all the same. You've just validated the work of such humanitarian groups like the KKK, the 3rd Reich, etc. etc. etc. Way to go, you should be proud of yourself. Sieg Heil.

At least with destroy, you end the reaper threat. Yes you have to sacrifice friends to do it, but everyone knows the stakes. The geth and EDI both are willing to die for what they believe in, and if that's what it takes, so be it.

Of course, the entire premise of the ending was crap anyway, so why should the ending options be any different?

Yes!  Great post.

[JoshPet12]

Destroy is the only option I will choose.

I find Control to be naive.

Shepard is just one human being. Does one human being have the mental strength necessary to dominate and control a race of machines composed of uncounted trillions of minds?

Additionally a thought just ocurred to me. The Catalyst says "you will lose everything you have." Everything, your morality, your love, your determination, so on. Thinking about it, by choosing Control you're committing suicide while leaving a flawed imprint of your mind on a Reaper hard drive. Whats to say it can't be made to actually agree with the whole harvest civilizations for their own good thing. Hell, a little hack just might do the trick. Hello Cycle 2.0.

I find Synthesis to be utterly and totally repugnant in a moral sense. (As an aside I most definitely do not subscribe to moral relativism. There is an objective right and an objective wrong. It is embedded in everyones make up, nearly every person who is mentally healthy has a conscience.)

My problem with it is primarily the fact that it eliminates free will and diversity, both of which are shown to be good things throughout the series. According to Javik why did the Protheans lose? Because they eliminated diversity in favor of a monolithic empire with just one culture, one military doctrine. Whereas in this Cycle, Shepard unites the galaxy, preserving its diversity. Asari and turians fight very differently; one employs hit and run, guerilla style warfare, the other grinding down the enemy with overwhelming force. Asari are just not trained to fight as turians and turians lack the skill asari huntresses spend centuries acquiring. Yet when used in concert both skillsets can have a greater effect than either alone.

As for free will, Synthesis violates it by making Shepard decide to change every living being without their informed consent. For myself, if given a choice, I'd tell them to shove it up their solid waste extraction port. If I was forcefully hybridized like that, I'd eat a bullet. I understand someone else might have a different opinion. That's fine, more power to you. Just don't force me to become a flippin' Borg Drone, while you seek some kind of technological perfection for yourself.

In Destroy, I see hope, hope for the future.
I can see a future where the galaxy can rise, phoenix-like, from the ashes and be free from the threat of a race of deluded, omnicidal cuttlefish coming in and wiping your people out. As for the organic/synthetic conflict, EDI and the quarians/Geth show that conflict between the two is not inevitable. There can be peace if both sides accept the other as having a right to exist, and as sentient being in their own right.
Regarding the supposed destruction of all synthetic life if Destroy is chosen, I'm very much sceptical. The Catalyst is suspect in my eyes, it admits to being an enemy. If it is lying, or shading the truth, then the Geth will not be destroyed, EDI will not die, etc.

If it is telling the truth , then it is a case of a regrettable but necessary sacrifce. The Geth joined of their free will, knowing the possible cost. EDI says she will face destruction if it is necessary. As for Shepard, mine would willingly sacrifice him/herself to end the Reaper threat once and for all. Maybe then the galaxy can explore the other paths foreclosed by the Reaper-imposed mass effect tech. Who knows something even better might come into existence.

Modifié par JoshPet12, 26 mai 2012 - 02:43 .

[Iakus]

PSjoh wrote...

but killing all geth and reapers (they might be monsters but you still kill them)
is not playing god?
all three choices involve you playing god,listen to starchild, agree or disagree and FORCE your will on everyone.

And that's why all the endings are terrible.

[PsyrenY]

daecath wrote...

Oh, absolutely. Control is a great ending. We finally catch up with Adolf Hitler after he's slaughtered millions of innocent Jews, and instead of putting a bullet in his head, we slap a leash on him. Every person that had family and friends who died at the hands of the reapers can be comforted by the knowledge that the reapers are still out there. All the people who were turned into horrible abominations, get to live on as horrible abominations. Yeah, that's a happy ending.

What's stopping you from sending them into a black hole when you're done with them? Or even, right away, if people are going to be that upset about it?

daecath wrote... 
And synthesis is even worse. It's impossible for people to live in peace if they have differences, so we're going to make them all the same.

Because Joker and EDI were clearly twins...

daecath wrote... 
At least with destroy, you end the reaper threat.

All three endings do that, actually.

[Kingthlayer]

Paragon isn't good and Renegade isn't bad.

[HellbirdIV]

MisterJB wrote...

First, all races are preserved. One as a Capital, the others as Destroyers.

Except they aren't.

See, it's Reaper propoganda. They say that they "preserve" species in Reapers, but do they really? 

The answer is no. They don't. They preserve information, but individual Reapers are nothing but amalgams of millions of corpses. Nothing that mattered about the species they "preserve" actually remains.

Reapers do not know love or compassion. To them, wantonly killing people, transforming their corpses into Husks to use as cannon fodder to kill other people is not just acceptable, it is their preferred way of doing things. It has been demonstrated in Mass Effect that virtually all sapient species do not agree with this idea.

Reapers do not create or respect art, they destroy almost everything that remains of the harvested species' culture. On purpose. Yet us, as humans, find the idea of wiping out all that remained of an entire civilization to be heinous - that's why we preserve the ruins of past civilizations, like the Giza Pyramids or the Great Wall of China.

If the Reapers preserve the minds and souls of the people they devour, the only explanation for why the Reapers have not destroyed themselves trying to stop the cycles from constantly repeating, is that the Reapers themselves have become indoctrinated, forced to believe in the Catalyst's twisted and wholly false so-called "logic".

The Catalyst insists that he's "saving" the species from extinction, but he's lying. He has crushed everything that mattered about them. He not only took their lives away, but he also ripped out their souls, crushed their art, silenced their ideals and politics, removed their views on life and death... There is nothing left of the trillions of souls the Reapers have destroyed, because they wipe out every last trace of them that they can find - even inside of themselves.

The Reapers do not preserve species. They annihilate them.

[PSjoh]

From my point of view, id dare to say the ending isn't even about you, its about the reapers.
All along you find solutions for the problems in the universe, The ending is finding a solution for (and not to) the Reapers.
They quickly explain to you Their problem, why They exist.
Give you the new possibilities your mod added.

Problem: Synthetics will wipe out organics, We love organics, we want them to exist (not live forever)
Old solution: the cycle, give a short time of existance to all species, and store them in reaper form afterwards.Doesnt work, i mean you found a way to hack it and be able to break the cycle.
New solutions (from the crucible)
Destoy: well what youre saying is bull****, I don't beleive in you synthetic vs Organics idea, You should get out of existance and allow organics to live forever in peace.
He warns you this is stupid, he knows the synthetics will come back, and unless you find a solution then, that time organics will be gone for good.

Control: yeah, i get youre Idea, but I don't think you should wipe us out, There might be another way, I will find it myself. You will likely come to the same conclusion that the cycle is nessecary, but for now peace. you could do the space police, you choose whats best.

Synthetisis: You are totaly right, but theres no going around it... the inevitable will happen, The only way to peace is for synthetics and organics to no longer be different. Everyone becomes hybrids, like reapers! its actually ultimate victory and defeat of reapers!

And as you can see from the color changing ending, it doesn't change anything but the fate of the reapers. Attaching the crucible won the war, your choice is how you will help, or refuse to help, the reapers. (like the krogans, or quarians, etc)