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[OblivionDawn]

o Ventus wrote...

OblivionDawn wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

OblivionDawn wrote...

Right, please tell me who Synthesis hurts.

The people that live out of the range of a relay. Unless you're saying that the shockwave from the relay's detonation will just travel out infinitely and never dissipate, rendering the destruction of all the relays pointless.

Or everyone born AFTER the synthesis, unless you're saying that women now have mini production lines in their uteruses and implant cybernetics into unborn fetuses.

Implying anyone has cybernetics after they get hit by the shockwave.

Everyone is a seamless combination of both after Synthesis. I imagine that would make reproduction a different process.

Your 2 points only reinforce my own. If it's a "seamless combination" of both synthetic and organic "tissue", then the only conclusion I can come to is that organics are now cyborgs and the geth are growing organs in their bodies. What the hell else could it mean? It isn't a synthesis if it's only affecting 1 party, it's just augmentation.

Like the Catalyst says, Synthesis combines them into a "new framework." The word "synthetic" and "organic" are irrelevant after it happens, they are one in the same now.

a.k.a, you don't have organics with synthetic implants and you don't have synthetics with organs inside of them.

[o Ventus]

Optimystic_X wrote...

o Ventus wrote...


There is a difference between suspension of disbelief and flat-out space magic. The former, being biotics, mass effect travel, and the like. Using real-world physics and basic scientific understanding, yes, they are BS. But within the context and restraints of the in-game universe, they are perfectly plausible. 

Explain how the Cipher and Monolith are not space magic. Or any biotic abilities besides throw, pull and singularity.

The Cipher is very much space magic. Just because I never mentioned something completely irrelevant means nothing at all. By "the monolith", I assume you're talking about the Arca Monolith from Evolution. I can't comment on that, as I haven't read the comics, I only know what the monolith does.

Warp shreds the molecules of the target. Not really magic to me. Stasis increases the target's mass to such a degree it renders them immobile. Again, not magic. Stasis is arguably the most plausible power (along with throw and pull). I'm not going to mention the MP specific biotic powers, since they are too stupid for me to think about. Lift Grenade and Cluster Grenade aren't technically biotics, since grenades aren't biological organisms, and thus not "biotic". I can't remember the other powers ATM, for some reason.

[legion999]

Optimystic_X wrote...

legion999 wrote...

1. Are all explained in game. Implausible in real life? Yes? In game? No.
2. If the people building the Crucible can't understand it how can I?
3. Then what does Synthesis do exactly? I'm just repeating what other 'pro-synthesis' people have said.
4. You're helping it.
5. So what then? Will organisms just sit there? If we don't need to eat or sleep are seriously saying that's fine? I don't even, please stop smoking whatever you're smoking.

1. False. The Monolith (the device that gave TIM his eyes) was never in-game, nor was it explained. The Cipher was "explained" by Shiala - Oh wait, no it wasn't, instead we got bull**** like "It would be like describing color to a creature without eyes." Yeah, real scientific, Shiala. And biotics? How does "Dominate" work, and why can Shepard learn it? Or Reave, or Dark Channel, or Stasis?
2. If you admit you don't understand it, what makes you think you know what it can and can't do?
3. Which pro-synthesis person has said "primitves won't be ready for the tech?" It's pretty obvious that it will upgrade organic minds - indeed, that must be it's primary effect if it is to end the cycle, otherwise we will still need AI and AI will still be able to surpass us.
4. I'm helping the galaxy. That the Catalyst wants the same thing is irrelevant to the deed itself. TIM wanted to save human colonies - by doing so you were helping him. Was that bad too? That is textbook association fallacy.
5. I believe we'll have absolute control over our propagation, just like the Geth do. No over- or under-population. The same with our energy needs - we will be able to regulate ourselves just like synthetics do.

1. What monolith are you talking about? I thought you meant the beacons. Unless was TIM exposed to a beacon? And the Cypher was weak. But that doesn't excuse Synthesis. And biotic abilities involve manipulating mass effect fields. I refer you to my previous statement.
2. Because something on the magnitude of Synthesis would be more advanced than the Reapers themselves.
3. Someone stated that Synthesis makes you smarter. And who's making assumptions now?
4. No. The goal of the Catalyst was to stop it's supposed problem. We aided and therefore encouraged it.
5. Again assumptions.

[PsyrenY]

Zix13 wrote...

Idiot, the cycle is the reapers harvesting advanced civilizations. It does nothing to stop the current reaper war. You honestly think the fleet will stop shooting reapers because their now partly synthetic? No, their families are still dead, their worlds are still burning, and they will still seek vengeance.

Moron, did you not see the Reapers leaving in the green ending?

As for seeking vengeance, yeah maybe some will do that. My personal hope is that either the races will understand why the harvesting was going on, the newly-liberated Reapers will show contrition, or both, but the Catalyst's goal is preventing singularity, not ending conflict for all time.

dreamgazer wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...
Don't be a simpleton. "The Cycle" is how he refers to the war.

No, "The Cycle" is how he refers to the harvesting. 

Semantics. The war is a result of species resisting harvest.

[cyrslash1974]

Just have a look in sky and you will see Quarian ship and Geth ship fighting together against reapers.
Just have a look on Rannoch, you will see Quarians and Geths living now in peace, each of them keeping their own identity.

Have you used a Synthesis option to have these results ? no. They are free.
It's a hope. Peace between Synthetics and Organics is possible.
StarChild doesn't know what hope means.

[o Ventus]

OblivionDawn wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

OblivionDawn wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

OblivionDawn wrote...

Right, please tell me who Synthesis hurts.

The people that live out of the range of a relay. Unless you're saying that the shockwave from the relay's detonation will just travel out infinitely and never dissipate, rendering the destruction of all the relays pointless.

Or everyone born AFTER the synthesis, unless you're saying that women now have mini production lines in their uteruses and implant cybernetics into unborn fetuses.

Implying anyone has cybernetics after they get hit by the shockwave.

Everyone is a seamless combination of both after Synthesis. I imagine that would make reproduction a different process.

Your 2 points only reinforce my own. If it's a "seamless combination" of both synthetic and organic "tissue", then the only conclusion I can come to is that organics are now cyborgs and the geth are growing organs in their bodies. What the hell else could it mean? It isn't a synthesis if it's only affecting 1 party, it's just augmentation.

Like the Catalyst says, Synthesis combines them into a "new framework." The word "synthetic" and "organic" are irrelevant after it happens, they are one in the same now.

a.k.a, you don't have organics with synthetic implants and you don't have synthetics with organs inside of them.

You're aware that "hybrid" at face value implies elements of both parties, right? I say "at face value" because we don't know precisely what synthesis does. If everything from this point on is a hybrid, then they would logically contain elements of both organic and synthetic origin. I don't know if that means trees will get motherboards or if the geth are going to grow silky smooth heads of hair.

Example, "hybrid" cars contain elements from both regular cars via an internal combustion engine, and a secondary electric battery.

So yeah, there's still the concepts of "organic" and "synthetic", at least to a degree. Maybe not 100%, but at least 50%. You kind of can't be "alive" if you aren't at least partially organic. I don't know of any living volcanic rocks, or sentient automobiles.

[PsyrenY]

o Ventus wrote...

The Cipher is very much space magic.

Good, now we're getting somewhere.

o Ventus wrote... 

Just because I never mentioned something completely irrelevant means nothing at all. By "the monolith", I assume you're talking about the Arca Monolith from Evolution. I can't comment on that, as I haven't read the comics, I only know what the monolith does.

Good again. Not sure why we're arguing when we so clearly agree.

o Ventus wrote... 
Warp shreds the molecules of the target. Not really magic to me. Stasis increases the target's mass to such a degree it renders them immobile. Again, not magic. Stasis is arguably the most plausible power (along with throw and pull). I'm not going to mention the MP specific biotic powers, since they are too stupid for me to think about. Lift Grenade and Cluster Grenade aren't technically biotics, since grenades aren't biological organisms, and thus not "biotic". I can't remember the other powers ATM, for some reason.

1) You're right, Warp is explainable. Add that to the first three.

2a) So Stasis makes them so massive that they can't move, without impacting their bone structure, organs, blood vessels at all? How about where they're standing - will stasis cause someone to break through glass, or a light catwalk? Stop me when you have answers 
2b) The other powers include Reave (which in its first iteration healed wounds), Dominate and Dark Channel. Go 

[daecath]

I'm insulted on two fronts.

First,in terms of the rules of the universe they created, it breaks all the rules. Synthetic dna, an energy wave that can make precise manipulations of DNA. Most of the time, when you're exposed to an energy wave like that, the best you can hope for is not developing cancer or some horrible genetic damage. And then how do they already have glowing eyes and circuitry after just a few minutes. If developing synthetic components is anything like developing organic ones, it should take weeks or months for synthetic tissues to develop.

Second, and even worse, is that basically it betrays the entire theme of the game. It's supposed to be the best ending, the one where everyone lives happily ever after (except Shepard). It's the only one that guarantees peace. So instead of "strength through diversity", and people working past their differences to come together in peace, the final message of the game is that the only way you can ever have lasting peace is if everyone is exactly the same. Wow, that's a wonderful, touching, uplifting message. Sieg heil!

[moater boat]

because both Renegade and Paragon Shepard agree on one thing.
www.youtube.com/watch

Modifié par moater boat, 26 mai 2012 - 01:15 .

[Zix13]

OblivionDawn wrote...

Zix13 wrote...

OblivionDawn wrote...

Zix13 wrote...

Ji99saw wrote...

OblivionDawn wrote...

Some people use words like "galactic rape" and other hyperbolic phrases to say that Synthesis is basically changing organic life without giving them a choice.

But if the change is clearly for the better of the entire galaxy (based on the ending), then I don't see what the problem is.

It disturbs me greatly that some people think like this. 

It disturbs me greatly that some people unconditionally fear what they don't understand, even if it doesn't hurt anyone.

But that's human nature.

Choice is the main issue here. Nothing else. If someone wants to "synthesis" themself, that's their business. But it's not anyones business to force that on everyone. 

 Of course I fear people without any shred of moral integrity. However, my fear of them has nothing to do with my lack of understanding, it has to do with the dangers of their nature. 

Also, you assume synthesis is a good thing without knowing what it does. I'm simply cautious enough to put on a parachute before jumping out of a plane. 

If choice is the main issue, then Synthesis is the lesser of three evils. Destroy will destroy an entire species (the Geth) without their consent. Control will subjugate an entire species (the Reapers) to your own will (and it will leave them around, presenting the possibility of the cycle restarting).

Synthesis, finally, brings everyone to a higher stage of evolution without killing anyone.

Geth are machines, and may be dead. Also, destroy has the advantage of completing the only task you needed to do. We also see no dead geth, and Shep isn't dead, though the catalyst said he would be. 

Control is utterly moronic, just more relevant and less out of left field than synthesis. 

Synthesis affects everyone and everything. It's like sticking each individual person in a new body. Since you have no morals, I'll stop that argument there and continue with others. First off, synthesis doesn't end the reaper war. It also doesn't prevent synthetics from being created, so even if the reapers went to chill back in darkspace for a while, they'd be back an' reapin' before too long. Also here's the point you have missed countless times, in caps, so you can pay more attention to it: YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT SYNTHESIS ACTUALLY DOES. You do not know to what extent it modifies organics, nor do you know how invasive it is, nor do you know how it works, nor do you know that it has any advantages despite your claim of "higher stage of evolution" or w.e. You also seem to be using a different definition of evolution than I am. Putting protective gloves on isn't evolution, nor is grafting on a new arm, nor is putting green LEDs under your skin.  

Modifié par Zix13, 26 mai 2012 - 01:18 .

[dreamgazer]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Semantics. The war is a result of species resisting harvest.

It's really not. War is a product of the harvesting, which is their ultimate goal.

When have the Reapers expressed even the slightest inclination towards cohabitation, or anything outside of achieving their cycle's design?

[PsyrenY]

Gamble specifically said that there is no "best ending" regardless of EMS.

daecath wrote...

Sieg heil!

Can you... I dunno, find something other than Godwin to put in these threads? Anything.

[legion999]

moater boat wrote...

because both Renegade and Paragon Shepard agree on one thing.
www.youtube.com/watch

Why did you link to Braveheart?

[Vespervin]

I don't despise Synthesis. After all, CABAL needs more Cyborgs!

[Zix13]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Zix13 wrote...

Idiot, the cycle is the reapers harvesting advanced civilizations. It does nothing to stop the current reaper war. You honestly think the fleet will stop shooting reapers because their now partly synthetic? No, their families are still dead, their worlds are still burning, and they will still seek vengeance.

Moron, did you not see the Reapers leaving in the green ending?

As for seeking vengeance, yeah maybe some will do that. My personal hope is that either the races will understand why the harvesting was going on, the newly-liberated Reapers will show contrition, or both, but the Catalyst's goal is preventing singularity, not ending conflict for all time.

"we were killing your families to prevent them from being hypothetically killed by other synthetics, spare us" Can see that going over real well. Reapers are still all "You are insignificant, we are superior, bla bla" and would simply continue fighting those who dared to oppose them. 

Modifié par Zix13, 26 mai 2012 - 01:20 .

[PsyrenY]

dreamgazer wrote...

It's really not. War is a product of the harvesting, which is their ultimate goal.

No, it's a product of the resistance. If the species line up like sheep there would be no war, would there?

dreamgazer wrote... 

When have the Reapers expressed even the slightest inclination towards cohabitation, or anything outside of achieving their cycle's design?

After the Crucible was installed.

"We find a new solution."

[moater boat]

legion999 wrote...

moater boat wrote...

because both Renegade and Paragon Shepard agree on one thing.
www.youtube.com/watch

Why did you link to Braveheart?

Are you really that dense? There is ONE word in that 12 second clip. Only one word, and you are still unable to figure out what I am saying?

[o Ventus]

Optimystic_X wrote...

2a) So Stasis makes them so massive that they can't move, without impacting their bone structure, organs, blood vessels at all? How about where they're standing - will stasis cause someone to break through glass, or a light catwalk? Stop me when you have answers

You're talking about weight, not mass. Moving more mass requires a greater amount of energy. Too much mass, and people simply can't make it budge. Same basic premise behind mass accelerators, only reversed. Less mass = less energy input = travels much faster (At all, in this case).

2b) The other powers include Reave (which in its first iteration healed wounds), Dominate and Dark Channel.

Reave attacks the target's central nervous system. The healing is a gameplay element. Without it, it would just be a generic store brand DoT attack.

edit: Can't access the MEWiki without having Safari crash on me. Just updated the OS in my computer to a new version, and there's something wrong with one of the scripts on that site. MY Xbox isn't anywhere near me, or I'd simply look at it in the codex.

Modifié par o Ventus, 26 mai 2012 - 01:24 .

[frylock23]

OblivionDawn wrote...

Zix13 wrote...

Ji99saw wrote...

OblivionDawn wrote...

Some people use words like "galactic rape" and other hyperbolic phrases to say that Synthesis is basically changing organic life without giving them a choice.

But if the change is clearly for the better of the entire galaxy (based on the ending), then I don't see what the problem is.

It disturbs me greatly that some people think like this. 

It disturbs me greatly that some people unconditionally fear what they don't understand, even if it doesn't hurt anyone.

But that's human nature.

Way to totally miss the point!

[PsyrenY]

o Ventus wrote...

You're talking about weight, not mass.

Weight is a function of mass, for every entity that isn't in open space. Increase their mass, you increase their weight. So do you smash through a glass catwalk or not?

o Ventus wrote... 

Reave attacks the target's central nervous system. The healing is a gameplay element. Without it, it would just be a generic store brand DoT attack.

How do you "target their nervous system?" Lowering its mass, or raising it? As far as I knew, that was all the mass effect could do.

[OblivionDawn]

Zix13 wrote...

Synthesis affects everyone and everything. It's like sticking each individual person in a new body. Since you have no morals, I'll stop that argument there and continue with others. First off, synthesis doesn't end the reaper war. It doesn't prevent synthetics from being created. Also here's the point you have missed countless times, in caps, so you can pay more attention to it: YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT SYNTHESIS ACTUALLY DOES. You do not know to what extent it modifies organics, nor do you know how invasive it is, nor do you know how it works, nor do you know that it has any advantages despite your claim of "higher stage of evolution" or w.e. You also seem to be using a different definition of evolution than I am. Putting protective gloves on isn't evolution, nor is grafting on a new arm, nor is putting green LEDs under your skin.  

You know for a fact that Synthesis blends organics and synthetics together.

You also know (based on the ending) that the event isn't traumatizing enough to cause people to start shrieking in horror, or to cause whatever apocalyptic scene you would like to see to support your feelings. Everyone seems pretty chill about being "invaded" and "raped" or whatever.

So I don't really see what point you're trying to make by saying it effects everyone. It makes everyone better, true. I don't see the problem in that though.

Also, my morals aren't part of this argument. I personally prefer the Destroy ending. I'm simply being the devil's advocate for Synthesis because I enjoy debating for the less popular side. Don't pass try to pass judgement on my morality just to support your weak arguments.

[Abispa]

There are three reasons I am not a fan of the synthesis ending:

1) It's magic. Blow up relays, channel dark energy, and something magical happens. Destruction and Control seem plausible since the Catalyst leads/created the Reapers.

2) "A new DNA." I HATE HATE HATE bad science. Did the writer know what DNA is? Or did s/he just assume the players are too stupid to know that the Catalyst's explanation makes no sense.

Nor does it explain how conflicts will end. Organics war with organics, not just synthetics. The Geth were willing to go to war with the Reapers, so synthetics don't just war with organics. Or is it only "chaos" when organics and synthetics war against each other?

3) And the last is a petty one. I HATE the cinema that shows the great achievement of Shepard's sacrifice is that EDI (a character for whom I have nothing but apathy) and Joker (a character I was becoming increasing intolerant of) can now live happily ever after. Oh, look! My LI or bestemest buddy is able to tag along, too! Wow!

If Shepard must be a martyr, I'd prefer a scene where his/her surviving squad and/or friends acknowledge their loss or show respect at some memorial. Or maybe a tear jerker ending with the LI or best buddy alone looking at the monument, showing appropriate emotion.

As much as I did not like the endings, particularly synthesis, they did NOT keep me from appreciating a game I consider one of the best I've ever played this decade.

[frylock23]

OblivionDawn wrote...

Icinix wrote...

OblivionDawn wrote...

Zix13 wrote...

Ji99saw wrote...

OblivionDawn wrote...

Some people use words like "galactic rape" and other hyperbolic phrases to say that Synthesis is basically changing organic life without giving them a choice.

But if the change is clearly for the better of the entire galaxy (based on the ending), then I don't see what the problem is.

It disturbs me greatly that some people think like this. 

It disturbs me greatly that some people unconditionally fear what they don't understand, even if it doesn't hurt anyone.

But that's human nature.

It disturbs me greatly that some people would unconditionally impose their will on others, despite the fact it does hurt them.

But thats dictator nature.

Right, please tell me who Synthesis hurts.

It may be the best thing since sliced bread, but that still doesn't give you the right to choose to impose it on me.

Erm, this should be familiar -> My body; my choice.

[dreamgazer]

Optimystic_X wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

It's really not. War is a product of the harvesting, which is their ultimate goal.

No, it's a product of the resistance. If the species line up like sheep there would be no war, would there?

No, there wouldn't, but you're not doing anything to strengthen your point.

Optimystic_X wrote...

dreamgazer wrote... 

When have the Reapers expressed even the slightest inclination towards cohabitation, or anything outside of achieving their cycle's design?

After the Crucible was installed.

"We find a new solution."

And you're willing to enter into the conversation under the presumption that the catalyst is forthright towards his intentions, that he and the Reapers' purpose for the cycle will be forfeit---evolved, diverted, what have you---after all life shares a link? Inborn nature towards technology doesn't change so readily, and they've likely got thousands upon thousands of years of experience to show for it. 

Modifié par dreamgazer, 26 mai 2012 - 01:27 .

[legion999]

moater boat wrote...

legion999 wrote...

moater boat wrote...

because both Renegade and Paragon Shepard agree on one thing.
www.youtube.com/watch

Why did you link to Braveheart?

Are you really that dense? There is ONE word in that 12 second clip. Only one word, and you are still unable to figure out what I am saying?

Sorry as a Scottish person I usually blank out Braveheart. And dude chill out. Synthesis takes away freedom we get it.