550 réponses à ce sujet

[Talogrungi]

Synthesis is stupid. Makes zero sense, either from a logical, scientific OR moral perspective.

Control is also stupid, but slightly less so.

Destroy is stupid too, but much less stupid than either of the other two.

[Vigilant111]

Jamie9 wrote...

@Rip504

First, I want to point out that I consider Control to be the best option. That doesn't mean it IS the best option. This is all purely my opinion, don't think I'm trying to say everyone should pick what I pick.

Yes, control imposes your will onto the Reapers. The Reapers aren't 'alive' to me, so I don't consider that an atrocity. They are mockeries of the species they harvested.

Making a decision does not equal imposing your will. I made the Quarians and the Geth work together. Is that imposing my will? If I never intervened in anything, the galaxy would be in a terrible place. I just try to intervene to help people, and not cause them suffering or loss of free will.

As evidenced by the game, Shepard at least has enough power to move the Reapers. So at the very least I can fly them into a sun. Rebuilding the Relays is wishful thinking. Twitter said you could, but that's not a canon source. Remember, it is implied that in Control, the Relays are slightly less damaged, so maybe the Allies can do it themselves.

But even if I couldn't do that, I've destroyed the Reapers without causing the genocide of the Geth, or the homogenization of the galaxy. A paragon move if ever I saw one.

Big plothole, how exactly does Shepard control the reapers if he or she dies?

The Catalyst kept saying there is synthetic parts inside, as if its trying to coax Shepard

Modifié par Vigilant111, 26 mai 2012 - 03:48 .

[Jamie9]

Vigilant111 wrote...

Big plothole, how exactly does Shepard control the reapers if he or she dies?

The Catalyst kept saying there is synthetic parts inside, as if its trying to coax Shepard

And this is where poor execution comes into play. This is what wasn't explained well enough. I believe it was intended for Shepard just to lose his physical body.

But everything said about this is so vague it can be taken in many ways: for instance, I took "You will lose everything you have." to mean Shepard's body, his friends, his love interest. He'll never see them again. He'll lose everything he has.

So his will survives I guess?

[Gogzilla]

There is not such thing as a final evolution.
That would imply design, when there is only random propagation of new survival traits, where the best traits survive.

Synthesis is galactic rape, even if it is a good thing which is yet to be determines because we know so little about it. How can you force everyone to undergo this radical change without consent.

We don't know anything about it, it may turn people into JC Dentons or Reaper husks, we don't know ?

----

In summary why is it hated ?

-We know nothing about it
-What we know about it does not make any sense
-It directly challenges the main theme of unity despite diversity

I have nothing against the idea of Synthsis i would probably support it(As i have in games like Deus Ex ) but in ME3 the choice is presented in terrible way, its extremely superficial and contrived.

[Vigilant111]

Jamie9 wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

Big plothole, how exactly does Shepard control the reapers if he or she dies?

The Catalyst kept saying there is synthetic parts inside, as if its trying to coax Shepard

And this is where poor execution comes into play. This is what wasn't explained well enough. I believe it was intended for Shepard just to lose his physical body.

But everything said about this is so vague it can be taken in many ways: for instance, I took "You will lose everything you have." to mean Shepard's body, his friends, his love interest. He'll never see them again. He'll lose everything he has.

So his will survives I guess?

so...he is a reaper? more precisely, he is THE reapers

Modifié par Vigilant111, 26 mai 2012 - 04:01 .

[Jamie9]

Vigilant111 wrote...

so...he is a reaper? more precisely, he is THE reapers

Effectively yes. Although as witnessed, he retains his will somewhat, as he moves the Reapers away from earth.

Anything after that cutscene is headcanon yes, but canon does allow Shepard to move the Reapers, so he COULD move them into a sun.

Or he could dominate the galaxy, it's left open-ended purposely. Sure, it's unsatisfying, but that's the way they did it.

[ArcanistLibram]

First off, the Synthesis ending is exactly what the Reapers wanted, so they win.

Second, it makes no sense. What about germs? What about bacteria? What about plants? What about animals? What about civilizations that are still in the Bronze Age? How do they react to turning into cyborgs? And how does the green space magic define synthetic life? Does my toaster become half-organic? What about PCs and Macs? The consequences of the Synthesis ending were not properly thought through or else it would be obvious that it makes no sense.

If you want an interesting treatment of the synthesis of organic and synthetic, go read Eclipse Phase.

[PsyrenY]

Vigilant111 wrote...

and I am just waiting for some dude to throw "but they told u at end of game u get a msg saying u ended reaper threat" in your face, which is utter bulls**t

Your delicious tears. Give me them.

[Rip504]

Jamie9 wrote...

@Rip504

First, I want to point out that I consider Control to be the best option. That doesn't mean it IS the best option. This is all purely my opinion, don't think I'm trying to say everyone should pick what I pick.

Yes, control imposes your will onto the Reapers. The Reapers aren't 'alive' to me, so I don't consider that an atrocity. They are mockeries of the species they harvested.

Making a decision does not equal imposing your will. I made the Quarians and the Geth work together. Is that imposing my will? If I never intervened in anything, the galaxy would be in a terrible place. I just try to intervene to help people, and not cause them suffering or loss of free will.

As evidenced by the game, Shepard at least has enough power to move the Reapers. So at the very least I can fly them into a sun. Rebuilding the Relays is wishful thinking. Twitter said you could, but that's not a canon source. Remember, it is implied that in Control, the Relays are slightly less damaged, so maybe the Allies can do it themselves.

But even if I couldn't do that, I've destroyed the Reapers without causing the genocide of the Geth, or the homogenization of the galaxy. A paragon move if ever I saw one.

I understand,I also picked Control. I am waiting on EC to inform me,so I can confirm which choice I truly want.
As it sits,I did pick control. Destroy was my second choice. After coming to the forums and looking for the alternate ending that I missed,but did not exist. Lol.

I agree upon the Reapers,I feel no sympathy. But you are simply taking over for the Catalyst. You are the new Catalyst with a sentient enslaved species under your control. They are shells of former life,but they have evolved into a new form of life.

I never said making a decision equals imposing your will. I said making a decision for someone else againsttheir will,is indeed imposing your will. I stand by that. The Quarians and Geth are willing parties. I agree,Shepard is not imposing his/her will in this situation.

BIU-Still an Assumption. 1 I tend to agree with. But if the Galaxy does not want reaper tech in it,and you leave it there because you feel it is the right thing to do. Even when a potential majority may not,it is imposing one's will. I feel all 3 impose wills. First the catalyst,then Shepard's.

Yes,I also heard in Control most everything is still intact. Relays tech etc. It is also hinted that a high EMS means Geth and EDI also survive in destroy. With a chance of Shepard,Geth,& EDI all surviving,why pick control and continue to rely on Reaper tech. The path  Reaper tech will bring us down will lead to chaos. As indicated in the countless similar cycles. The cycle/path the Catalyst and Reapers have created,based on their tech. One of the main ideas behind ME. We follow their path,because they have laid the outlines. I do feel it is time to change that.
Control seem to potentially imply that it does not change this.

TheGeth are a somewhat peaceful synthetic race. A variable the Catalyst could not account for? Why? One of the reasons may be because most of the Geth did not follow the Reapers cycle/tech. They created their own future,something we should take into account.

BIU-Agreed,It's Paragon. It still may leave us relying on Reaper tech,spiraling us down the original Catalyst's path. Something the rest of the galaxy may not want. Imposing our will.

I am not saying you are wrong for picking control,only that it may impose what you believe to be right upon others who do not. Not BSN user's,but the ME galaxy. Turians,Asari etc.


I <3 ...<_<

Modifié par Rip504, 26 mai 2012 - 04:11 .

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

I see the Reapers fly away whilst the Citadel closes up with the Crucible intact within. We already know the Reapers can be controlled, the Illusive Man proves it. 

But the catalyst states that TIM was already in their control, so he couldn't control it. If you also choose control you will also be, under their control whats to stop them from influencing you. Besides that, the way I understood control is that, it was a one time deal, you tell the reapers to go away after that you  die, you are no longer in control. If you watch the cut scene Shepard is clearly dying.

Looking at the intention behind control, it's obvious that the writer meant for Shepard to effectively become the new Catalyst, that she has control of the Reapers. 

The extent and duration is up to you to decide. 

Shepard dies in the cut scene.

Doesn't bother me. The origin of such passive technology matters not. 

All tech will be ABUSED. No matter if it is supposed to be passive or not.

If their hulks pose a threat I'll deal with them, if not, the species of the galaxy can do what they will. 

Great idea Bro

Nope. I'm secure in my speculation for the outcome of control, you're the one with the problem of not liking it. You made the claims, you prove how the the opposite of the above is true. 

Yes speculation there are no definite answers with control, only with destroy are we sure the reaper threat is ended. Does the price for putting the reapers down suck yes, but there was always going to be a price to do the right thing.

Modifié par DinoSteve, 26 mai 2012 - 04:21 .

[Jamie9]

@Rip 504

It's a big post and I don't really want to clutter the page so I'll reply this way.

A very well constructed post. I find it hard to disagree with you. All 3 endings impose your will then, but control is the least offensive (IMO of course). Basically, control keeps the status quo, it gets rid of the Reapers (if you so desire), keeps the Mass Relays etc. So yes, you are making a decision for the galaxy. But there's no time to do a vote and, as Shepard, that seems like the best option morally.

The Citadel doesn't indoctrinate people, and neither do the Relays so I think it's okay to use them. Yes, it's the path the Reapers used to harvest us, but they won't be around any more. Maybe we'll find even better technology later on, but getting rid of both of these resources would be a HUGE step back. And I'd like the races to be able to return home.

It's use the crucible, or die. At least all races are alive and themselves.

Also, the Geth made their own future using Reaper code

[Helios969]

[quote]Jamie9 wrote...

Basically, control keeps the status quo, it gets rid of the Reapers (if you so desire), keeps the Mass Relays etc. So yes, you are making a decision for the galaxy. But there's no time to do a vote and, as Shepard, that seems like the best option morally.

[quote]

Did I get a different cutscene?  Relays blow up regardless of choice you make.

[xbb1024]

Few quick responses:

Aiyie wrote...

1) you don't know if taking control of the Reaper's will actually end the cycle.  you don't know if you'll retain any of your values or self of self.  for all you know you could take control of the reapers and end up embracing their ideals as part of the process.

2) it doesn't matter if anybody accepts the reapers as a police force or not... the reapers have bigger guns.  its pretty obvious what will happen to anybody who resists... especially now that Shep is out of the picture.

3) its pretty idealistic and naive to just assume that taking control of the reapers will automatically make their knowledge unversally available.  please refer back to my first points for just a handful of reasons as to why.

1. True, the Catalyst did say that in exchange for controlling the Reapers, Shepard would loose everything he/she is. Shepard would not be using his/her biological brain with human emotions to make decisions, but the Catalyst's hardware. The one thing that does seem to get preserved is Shepard's will, when the Reapers appear to leave Earth. Shepard was told that the relays would be destroyed, so it is feasible Shepard does not want this and this desire will also get preserved. But I am speculating.

2. Agreed, the Reapers could use their bigger guns to force Shepards will.

3. Also agree, there is nothing to suggest that Shepard can continue to make decisions after he/she assumes control, and effectivly dies. Therefore, Shepard may or may not be able to turn the Citidel/Catalyst into a library of Reaper knowledge. However, if you pick destroy, all Reapers get destroyed and you cannot recover anything (the cinematic makes thier descruction look pretty comprehensive).

Rip504 wrote...

xbb1024 wrote...

Not me, wrong username.

Rip504 wrote...
You are the new Catalyst with a sentient enslaved species under your control.

I would like to ask if the Reaper creatures are really sentient, or just responding to commands from the catalyst?

Modifié par xbb1024, 26 mai 2012 - 04:34 .

[Jamie9]

Helios969 wrote...

Jamie9 wrote...

Basically, control keeps the status quo, it gets rid of the Reapers (if you so desire), keeps the Mass Relays etc. So yes, you are making a decision for the galaxy. But there's no time to do a vote and, as Shepard, that seems like the best option morally.

Did I get a different cutscene?  Relays blow up regardless of choice you make.

The destruction of the Mass Relays in the control ending is a few frames shorter than the other two. This is designed to reflect that they weren't as damaged by the blue pulse as by the green and red ones. It also shows BioWare are incredibly lazy sometimes.

It was also said on Twitter that you could rebuild them with Control, but again twitter isn't a canon source.

You can either rebuild them with the Reapers, or the Relays aren't as damaged.

Modifié par Jamie9, 26 mai 2012 - 04:46 .

[xbb1024]

And back to the original question... Why don't I like Synthesis? Because of the lack of explanation (as has been expressed prior) and the cinematic... Shepard jumps into the beam of light and then the catalyst formats the crucible energy to transform everyone?

[Jamie9]

xbb1024 wrote...

And back to the original question... Why don't I like Synthesis? Because of the lack of explanation (as has been expressed prior) and the cinematic... Shepard jumps into the beam of light and then the catalyst formats the crucible energy to transform everyone?

Every time I see that cutscene I still think Shepard is going to fall out of the other side. His momentum just suddenly stops

[CuseGirl]

Jamie9 wrote...

xbb1024 wrote...

And back to the original question... Why don't I like Synthesis? Because of the lack of explanation (as has been expressed prior) and the cinematic... Shepard jumps into the beam of light and then the catalyst formats the crucible energy to transform everyone?

Every time I see that cutscene I still think Shepard is going to fall out of the other side. His momentum just suddenly stops

lollll....don't they slow the scene just enough and zoom the camera on Shepard's body (instead of the wide angle shot) so that you can see him disentegrate? That way you don't see him leave the beam? lmaaaooo

[Scalabrine]

I don't know why people don't get it...why do we hate it you ask?

It's hitler-ish. Your're playing space hitler by trying to unite the galaxy into one "perfect" race.

That answer your question?

[Zix13]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

Shepard is supposed to care a little bit more

Shepard does care, hence control.

Shepard is not a moron, hence destroy. 

[The Night Mammoth]

DinoSteve wrote...

But the catalyst states that TIM was already in their control, so he couldn't control it. If you also choose control you will also be, under their control whats to stop them from influencing you. Besides that, the way I understood control is that, it was a one time deal, you tell the reapers to go away after that you  die, you are no longer in control. If you watch the cut scene Shepard is clearly dying.

Shepard will not be under their control, unless you have information that states otherwise. 

Shepard dies in the cut scene.

How do you know she dies? I see her uploading herself into the Citadel to become the Catalyst and take control, losing her organic form in the process. 

All tech will be ABUSED. No matter if it is supposed to be passive or not.

The Relays have existed for the entire duration of this cycle. They have been used for good and evil, so I don't really care. 

Great idea Bro

Thanks, you don't have to prove otherwise. 

Yes speculation there are no definite answers with control, only with destroy are we sure the reaper threat is ended. Does the price for putting the reapers down suck yes, but there was always going to be a price to do the right thing.

I never said there were definitive answers. Your speculation is as good as mine. 

[The Night Mammoth]

Zix13 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

Shepard is supposed to care a little bit more

Shepard does care, hence control.

Shepard is not a moron, hence destroy. 

A moron with lovely new Relays, friendly Geth, a fantastic new body, and no Reapers hanging around, dead or alive. 

[Darksaberexile]

JamieCardillo wrote...

Darksaberexile wrote...

Why synthesis doesn't work, imo:
1. The Reapers still exist, and can decide to go back to reaping at any time.

2. What's to stop the people altered by synthesis from making synthetics? Jumping into a magic space beam doesn't prevent building synthetics, which is the reason the Catalyst gives us for starting the cycle in the first place.

I don't believe that was really the purpose of the synthesis option....
I'm pretty sure the reason for creating a new framework for synthetics and organics to form a better understanding of each other (like gaining access to the Geth Consensus maybe?), preventing future conflicts in that way rather than completely wiping the other out.

I can agree with that. However, I still don't see a reason why that would prevent creation of new synthetics later on that aren't part of the shared understanding (or whatever it is synthesis forms), so we'd still end up back at square one?

[Carthago Nova]

Synthesis is bad because of forced evolutionary homogenization. Homogenization of genomes means that there is stagnation of the species. Not to mention it leads to weaknesses in the group. A disease that affects one will affect the others. This is why genetic diversity is a good thing, it ensures the survival of species. You can use Cheetahs as an example. Due to over hunting and low reproductive rates over several centuries Cheetahs have become nearly all genetically identical. The problem with this is that they are more susceptible to a disease that affects their species. The disease does not have to adapt to kill the various members of the species because there is no diversity. Now in the ME universe it could happen through either a biological disease or a virus that affects synthetics. In essence Synthesis, rather than put us to the "final stage in evolution", puts us at a stagnant point in evolution and eliminates one of evolutions greatest strengths: diversity.

[Malditor]

There really isn't non emotional response people can give for why synthesis is bad besides the fact that it wasn't explained/demonstrated well enough how it was done and the effect it would have. Any ending you chose is a "god" like decision as well as not being well enough described in effect.

Synthesis made the most sense to a lot of people. To me control made the least sense because it is a total reversal of thinking throughout the game for ME. I played the entire game with compromise being my major goal, therefore synthesis was the epitome of compromise and fit the way I played. It's not for anyone to tell me I made the wrong decision, just as I would never feel the right to tell you that your decision was wrong. In the end not one choice was fully ethical, no matter what you want to say.

[Barquiel]

It's space magic, it goes against one of the main themes of the trilogy (it contradicts Javiks dialogue as well), Shepard is playing god, it will not solve anything and the reapers are still "alive" (unchecked and uncontrolled)

Modifié par Barquiel, 26 mai 2012 - 06:32 .