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Synthesis- Why is it so despised?


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#476
CuseGirl

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o Ventus wrote...

xbb1024 wrote...

CuseGirl wrote...

There isn't even an explanation as to why choosing synthesis makes the Reapers stop attacking...


Maybe when everyone is merged, the Reapers aren't able to recognize them as 'advanced organics' anymore.(assumption, ofcorse).


Wouldn't common sense dictate the synthesized beings as more advanced after the synthesis?

Common sense reminds me of 2 issues here:

Shepard was never told by Sovereign or Harbinger that becoming more advanced would stop them from attacking.And secondly, the Starchild said "organics are so advanced, they make synthetics, so we must liquefy organics to prevent their created synthetics from killing them". So how do the advancements gained by synthesis help make the Reapers go away?

#477
o Ventus

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CuseGirl wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

xbb1024 wrote...

CuseGirl wrote...

There isn't even an explanation as to why choosing synthesis makes the Reapers stop attacking...


Maybe when everyone is merged, the Reapers aren't able to recognize them as 'advanced organics' anymore.(assumption, ofcorse).


Wouldn't common sense dictate the synthesized beings as more advanced after the synthesis?

Common sense reminds me of 2 issues here:

Shepard was never told by Sovereign or Harbinger that becoming more advanced would stop them from attacking.And secondly, the Starchild said "organics are so advanced, they make synthetics, so we must liquefy organics to prevent their created synthetics from killing them". So how do the advancements gained by synthesis help make the Reapers go away?


I like to think Harbinger just said "Hey, they're kind of like us now!" when he left.

#478
BP20125810

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xbb1024 wrote...

CuseGirl wrote...

There isn't even an explanation as to why choosing synthesis makes the Reapers stop attacking...


Maybe when everyone is merged, the Reapers aren't able to recognize them as 'advanced organics' anymore.(assumption, ofcorse).


The reapers changed too.  They became all green.  Ahh!  EC can't get here quick enough!

#479
Vigilant111

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WHY DIDN'T THE TROOPS CHEER ON LONDON AFTER THE GREEN BEAM STRUCK?

because writers thought illogical to include a victory cheer when u have joined up to the devil

Modifié par Vigilant111, 27 mai 2012 - 03:30 .


#480
BP20125810

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Vigilant111 wrote...

WHY DIDN'T THE TROOPS CHEER ON LONDON AFTER THE GREEN BEAM STRUCK?

because writers thought illogical to include a victory cheer when u have joined up to the devil


They were probly a bit wierded out.  I mean, if the person about to kill me turned green then ran away, my first reaction would probably shock and confusion.  Now, if that dude died, I'm cheering like a mother****er

#481
Vigilant111

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BP20125810 wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

WHY DIDN'T THE TROOPS CHEER ON LONDON AFTER THE GREEN BEAM STRUCK?

because writers thought illogical to include a victory cheer when u have joined up to the devil


They were probly a bit wierded out.  I mean, if the person about to kill me turned green then ran away, my first reaction would probably shock and confusion.  Now, if that dude died, I'm cheering like a mother****er


no no, u should still cheer cos u are the most powerful being in the galaxy now...:devil:

#482
StElmo

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It removes the choice of the individual.

It also presumes there is an evolutionary pinnacle, which I find disgusting.

#483
Sisterofshane

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BP20125810 wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

WHY DIDN'T THE TROOPS CHEER ON LONDON AFTER THE GREEN BEAM STRUCK?

because writers thought illogical to include a victory cheer when u have joined up to the devil


They were probly a bit wierded out.  I mean, if the person about to kill me turned green then ran away, my first reaction would probably shock and confusion.  Now, if that dude died, I'm cheering like a mother****er


I don't know about you, but if I was fighting for my life in London, facing almost certain death, and then the damn  Reaper flew away, I think I would be scared ****less.

I don't think I would be looking at my feet ashamedly, nor would I be cheering.

#484
Asharad Hett

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StElmo wrote...

It removes the choice of the individual.

It also presumes there is an evolutionary pinnacle, which I find disgusting.

  The reapers claim to be the evolutionary pinnacle.  So how does synthesis save us, if it ascends organics to the evolutionary pinnacle?

#485
Vigilant111

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Asharad Hett wrote...

StElmo wrote...

It removes the choice of the individual.

It also presumes there is an evolutionary pinnacle, which I find disgusting.

  The reapers claim to be the evolutionary pinnacle.  So how does synthesis save us, if it ascends organics to the evolutionary pinnacle?


Pinnacle is such a bad analogy, cos what happens after pinnacle? decline, deterioration, etc, and also pinnacle cannot mean the END, they are not the same thing

#486
Asharad Hett

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Vigilant111 wrote...

Asharad Hett wrote...

StElmo wrote...

It removes the choice of the individual.

It also presumes there is an evolutionary pinnacle, which I find disgusting.

  The reapers claim to be the evolutionary pinnacle.  So how does synthesis save us, if it ascends organics to the evolutionary pinnacle?


Pinnacle is such a bad analogy, cos what happens after pinnacle? decline, deterioration, etc, and also pinnacle cannot mean the END, they are not the same thing


I'm using the words from the games.

#487
Vigilant111

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Asharad Hett wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

Asharad Hett wrote...

StElmo wrote...

It removes the choice of the individual.

It also presumes there is an evolutionary pinnacle, which I find disgusting.

  The reapers claim to be the evolutionary pinnacle.  So how does synthesis save us, if it ascends organics to the evolutionary pinnacle?


Pinnacle is such a bad analogy, cos what happens after pinnacle? decline, deterioration, etc, and also pinnacle cannot mean the END, they are not the same thing


I'm using the words from the games.


Sovereign is bulls**ting, its just a way of saying they are perfection, how arrogant

#488
Sir MOI

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The Night Mammoth wrote...

Sir MOI wrote...

Please stop with the "playing god is baaaad" ****. Seriously! This is the kind of Christian moral concept that everybody agrees with but never really thinks about it...
YES I DO WANT TO PLAY GOD.
If we could "play god" as some of you say we would have built a much better world much more suited for us with much more perfect beings, much more evoluated and happy population.


Who's the one playing god? What are his/her intentions, ideals, motives? What if I or others don't want percieved changes wrought upon us? 

If you don't accept evolution and improvement then it's your problem.

#489
daecath

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Optimystic_X wrote...

daecath wrote...

Really, you have to be pretty blind not to see the themes. The reapers describe themselves as the pinnacle of evolution, which is what Hitler believed of the aryans. It's what we're supposed to believe is achieved by the merging of synthetics and organics.


The comparison is still nonsensical. Aryans were objectively no better off than any other human, whatever Hitler believed; blond hair does nothing biologically but make you sunburn more easily. Hell, Hitler was proof of that - he stood above all of them, and last I checked he was pretty far from the ideal himself - no blond hair, no blue eyes, short etc.

But cybernetics/nanotechnology DO make you objectively better off. The Alliance implants all of its soldiers, not to create some kind of moronic master race ideal, but because it just makes them fight better and react faster. And if Synthesis is to be the solution the Catalyst claims it to be, it must enhance our minds as well, as that is the only way to keep us from "creating Synthetics, and the Chaos will come back." Once we have the mental capabilities of AI ourselves, we won't need AI - we won't even need the sort of heuristics that accidentally lead to AI, like the Geth's self-improvement algorithm.

Alternatively, we'll still have code like that, but we'll be able to use it on ourselves. Either way, we'll be able to keep pace with Synthetics instead of being run over.

I don't care if synthesis means I can now leap tall buildings in a
single bound and calculate pi to ten thousand decimal places in less
than a second. That's irrelevant. Whether or not synthesis can enhance a person's abilities is not the point I was trying to make. My point is that the synthesis ending is effectively saying that the only way that anyone can coexist peacefully with anyone else is if they are identical. Synthetics will never be able to peacefully coexist with orgianics because they are too different, so the only way to permanently fix that is to make everyone the same synthetic/organic hybrid. You forgot to address the rest of my post.

daecath said...
Bigotry, prejudice, racism, etc. - they are all based on the belief that
a specific group is somehow superior to all others, that they have
nothing to contribute, and should be done away with. These beliefs
preclude the possibility of peace with anyone who is different.
Synthesis supports that premise. It states that it is impossible to
achieve a lasting peace unless everyone is merged together to create
some kind of hybrid race where everyone is the same. The only difference
is that racists would never allow such a merging to take place, but if
it were forced on them, they wouldn't have a choice. They would be the
same as everyone else at that point, and would be forced to live with it
and accept it, or kill themselves.

So yes, I find that option
increadibly insulting, I think it greatly parallels various themes such
as racism, but by validating many of the points of the racists, and I
will point that out without feeling at all guilty.

This is the exact same message as every violent hate group out there. There are only two differences between synthesis and groups like that. The first is that there is usually a statement of the worthiness about the other group that is somewhat lacking in the synthesis ending, unless you take into account the rest of the ending. The catalyst created the reapers to protect organic life from synthetic life. That right there make a value statement that says that organic life is worth saving and synthetic life is not. When combined with the premise of the synthesis ending that these two disperate groups can never coexist with their differences intact, you are very nearly to Hitler, or the KKK, or every hate group out there. "We [organics] are better than them [synthetics] and there is no way to have peaceful coexistance with them." The only difference is that they would destroy the other group, where synthesis creates a merging of the two groups.

Basically synthesis is like solving racism by turning everyone interracial. That's not a solution. And it's not what ME was about. It was always about putting aside our differences and working together to accomplish something great. Look at Ashley in ME1. Look at Pressley's journal in ME2 that you find in the crash. Look at the conflicts between Jack and Miranda or Tali and Legion in ME2. Look at the Tuchunka and Rannoch missions in ME3. Synthesis betrays all of that.

#490
Vigilant111

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daecath wrote...

This is the exact same message as every violent hate group out there. There are only two differences between synthesis and groups like that. The first is that there is usually a statement of the worthiness about the other group that is somewhat lacking in the synthesis ending, unless you take into account the rest of the ending. The catalyst created the reapers to protect organic life from synthetic life. That right there make a value statement that says that organic life is worth saving and synthetic life is not. When combined with the premise of the synthesis ending that these two disperate groups can never coexist with their differences intact, you are very nearly to Hitler, or the KKK, or every hate group out there. "We [organics] are better than them [synthetics] and there is no way to have peaceful coexistance with them." The only difference is that they would destroy the other group, where synthesis creates a merging of the two groups.

Basically synthesis is like solving racism by turning everyone interracial. That's not a solution. And it's not what ME was about. It was always about putting aside our differences and working together to accomplish something great. Look at Ashley in ME1. Look at Pressley's journal in ME2 that you find in the crash. Look at the conflicts between Jack and Miranda or Tali and Legion in ME2. Look at the Tuchunka and Rannoch missions in ME3. Synthesis betrays all of that.


u r preaching to the choir

#491
Asharad Hett

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Vigilant111 wrote...

Asharad Hett wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

Asharad Hett wrote...

StElmo wrote...

It removes the choice of the individual.

It also presumes there is an evolutionary pinnacle, which I find disgusting.

  The reapers claim to be the evolutionary pinnacle.  So how does synthesis save us, if it ascends organics to the evolutionary pinnacle?


Pinnacle is such a bad analogy, cos what happens after pinnacle? decline, deterioration, etc, and also pinnacle cannot mean the END, they are not the same thing


I'm using the words from the games.


Sovereign is bulls**ting, its just a way of saying they are perfection, how arrogant

Sovereign tells you they are the pinnacle of evolution.  The starchild offers you the same fate.  I hate to see you go, but you are indoctrinated, and doomed to fail. :(

#492
Ieldra

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OP, thank you for bringing this up. While I don't exactly agree that we accept all of the space magic as it is, you are completely correct that the hate is totally out of proportion.

The problem with the "final evolution of life" is that there is no such thing. Anyone who knows the least bit about evolution knows that. As long as there is any kind of environmental stress for *any* sort of life, evolution will continue. Intelligent species can stop natural evolution for themselves, but that depends on their decision and doesn't apply to other life, unless some super-powerful civilization starts a project to deliberately keep the genetic pattern of all life in the galaxy free from random changes. But even then, it's not a necessary development, and can't imagine how that could be a good thing - for all life, anyway.

I have no idea why the writers used the trope Goal Oriented Evolution here. I can't believe they don't know all this. But that doesn't change that it comes across as stupid.

Note that I'm particular to the Synthesis ending anyway. I'm just using a different interpretation

Modifié par Ieldra2, 27 mai 2012 - 08:38 .


#493
Arian Dynas

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Image IPB

Synthesis. What could POSSIBLY go wrong?

#494
The Night Mammoth

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DinoSteve wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...


Shepard will not be under their control, unless you have information that states otherwise. 


but every atempt in canon lore to control reaper tech or reapers has lead to them controlling, the person or persons trying to control them, why would this be different?


As far as I'm aware, the tests at Sanctuary were successful. Lawson wasn't indoctrinated. 


How do you know she dies? I see her uploading herself into the Citadel to become the Catalyst and take control, losing her organic form in the process. 


Because he disintegrated in what looks like agony and there is no way to know if he was uploaded, and it is implied by the starchild that its a one time thing.


The serpent does not imply one specific thing. 



The Relays have existed for the entire duration of this cycle. They have been used for good and evil, so I don't really care. 

awesome reply


Well I don't. The Relays and the Citadel are just tools, I'd rather chance some randomer using them for evil than doom everyone to centuries of hardship. 


Thanks, you don't have to prove otherwise.

/facepalm


That was sarcastic, you do have to prove otherwise or the point is irrelevant. 


I never said there were definitive answers. Your speculation is as good as mine. 

your the one dealing in speculation, i'm basing my theories on the facts that bioware have provided with previous games and books.


I know I'm dealing with speculation, but so are you. 

Your theories are speculations based on the same information I'm using. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 27 mai 2012 - 11:02 .


#495
Uncle Jo

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Arian Dynas wrote...

*best pic ever for synthesis removed*

Synthesis. What could POSSIBLY go wrong?


A good Reaper is a dead Reaper.

Modifié par Uncle Jo, 27 mai 2012 - 03:22 .


#496
legion999

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Sir MOI wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Sir MOI wrote...

Please stop with the "playing god is baaaad" ****. Seriously! This is the kind of Christian moral concept that everybody agrees with but never really thinks about it...
YES I DO WANT TO PLAY GOD.
If we could "play god" as some of you say we would have built a much better world much more suited for us with much more perfect beings, much more evoluated and happy population.


Who's the one playing god? What are his/her intentions, ideals, motives? What if I or others don't want percieved changes wrought upon us? 

If you don't accept evolution and improvement then it's your problem.


If you don't see an issue with forcing Synthesis on everyone then you have a problem.

#497
legion999

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Sir MOI wrote...

Please stop with the "playing god is baaaad" ****. Seriously! This is the kind of Christian moral concept that everybody agrees with but never really thinks about it...
YES I DO WANT TO PLAY GOD.
If we could "play god" as some of you say we would have built a much better world much more suited for us with much more perfect beings, much more evoluated and happy population.


There are no words.

Modifié par legion999, 27 mai 2012 - 03:25 .


#498
ChickenMan77

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legion999 wrote...

Sir MOI wrote...

Please stop with the "playing god is baaaad" ****. Seriously! This is the kind of Christian moral concept that everybody agrees with but never really thinks about it...
YES I DO WANT TO PLAY GOD.
If we could "play god" as some of you say we would have built a much better world much more suited for us with much more perfect beings, much more evoluated and happy population.


There are no words.


Sure, there are..Hubris

Modifié par ChickenMan77, 27 mai 2012 - 03:45 .


#499
RavenEyry

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Sir MOI wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Sir MOI wrote...

Please stop with the "playing god is baaaad" ****. Seriously! This is the kind of Christian moral concept that everybody agrees with but never really thinks about it...
YES I DO WANT TO PLAY GOD.
If we could "play god" as some of you say we would have built a much better world much more suited for us with much more perfect beings, much more evoluated and happy population.


Who's the one playing god? What are his/her intentions, ideals, motives? What if I or others don't want percieved changes wrought upon us? 

If you don't accept evolution and improvement then it's your problem.

I prefer evolution and improvement to come naturally over time, not forced upon us by a mysterious ghost child of questionable morals.

#500
legion999

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ChickenMan77 wrote...

legion999 wrote...

Sir MOI wrote...

Please stop with the "playing god is baaaad" ****. Seriously! This is the kind of Christian moral concept that everybody agrees with but never really thinks about it...
YES I DO WANT TO PLAY GOD.
If we could "play god" as some of you say we would have built a much better world much more suited for us with much more perfect beings, much more evoluated and happy population.


There are no words.


Sure, there are..Hubris


I guess ignorance would work as well. And idealism.

Modifié par legion999, 27 mai 2012 - 03:45 .