550 réponses à ce sujet

[Aiyie]

aside from the biological and scientific problems... the space magic...

my biggest problem is that it is forcing a moral choice by one person onto every other being.

it totally disregards everyone else's morality in favor of my own. 

even more than that though, it prevents them from even voicing any dissent against my morality.  they have no option to convince me that im wrong.

and i hate that, mainly because i realize that if i allow myself that moral lattitude, i must allow everyone else the same freedom... and i absolutely do not want someone else forcing their morality on me.

[Oldbones2]

JamieCardillo wrote...

When completing the game for the first time (Yessir, I did play through multiple times. Sorry if that blew any minds.), I found the most interesting choice to be the synthesis option. Of course, like everyone else, I was very displeased to discover there was almost no difference between any of the endings, but the concept in itself still intruiges me.

I understand a lot of people are unhappy with the pure fantasy of somehow molding the DNA of organics with synthetics, and the only apparent change is green eyes, blahblahblah. I get that part, believe me, I am currently in the Mass Effect Forum. But what I'm not understanding is why some fans are borderline insulted by this choice. Sure, it's not very easy to comprehend, but it's my belief we aren't supposed to fully comprehend it. It's a the final evolution of life. Scientists today still have some difficulty explaining precisely how evolution works. I honestly don't have any other points to make to defend the choice because I really don't know what part of it is in need of any defending.

And just to be clear: as the title would indicate, I am just asking a question. What I have written above is meant only to be used as a basis for others to explain what I'm missing; it is not meant to be an attempt to spread any idealism or convert members of the Red or Blue Churches to the all-holy Green Church. I understand the degree to which a lot of you are pissed off at the endings, but I'm only asking that you respond with legitimate, nonbeligerent answers to my question.

Because admidst an ending that doesn't make sense, and doesn't fit the series genre or tone, it is by far the most nonsensical and farthest off in terms of tone.  

It's also Bioware's favorite and they make little effort to disguise that favoritism.

Link to my thread that explains more.
http://social.biowar.../index/11152094 

[OblivionDawn]

Grimwick wrote...

What on earth is a 'new framework'? It doesn't make any sense...

I dunno. Ask the Starkid.

[EricHVela]

OblivionDawn wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

What on earth is a 'new framework'? It doesn't make any sense...

I dunno. Ask the Starkid.

Exactly the point: We don't know if Synthesis is a boon or a curse. There's just not enough information.

Given that, I think most people lean towards "self-determination" instead of letting one person roll the dice, betting whether or not Synthesis is a good thing or not.

Modifié par ReggarBlane, 25 mai 2012 - 08:19 .

[OblivionDawn]

I would like to take a moment to say that, despite my defense of the ethics of choosing Synthesis, the process itself (on a scientific level) makes no f**king sense to me and I wish that Bioware would have elaborated how it worked. That part of the ending, I do not like.

[stuffingam]

Synthesis is "the perfect union of flesh and machine."
Sound familiar?

It's what (indoctrinated) Saren, and by proxy the Reapers, preached all the way back in ME1.

[Aiyie]

But if the change is clearly for the better of the entire galaxy (based on the ending), then I don't see what the problem is.

what gives you the right to decide that for me?

you have no more right to decide that for me than i have the right to make a decision of that magnitude for you.

you want to synthesize?  go ahead.  but don't you dare tell me i have to as well.

your morality is not necessarily my morality, and i despire you forcing it on me.

[Oldbones2]

OblivionDawn wrote...

Some people use words like "galactic rape" and other hyperbolic phrases to say that Synthesis is basically changing organic life without giving them a choice.

But if the change is clearly for the better of the entire galaxy (based on the ending), then I don't see what the problem is.

Because what is good for you is subjective.

And taking away someone's choices for any reason is universally despised.


And for the record, I don't want to be synthesized, so how is it good for me?

It would kill me and replace me with a hybrid, one that isn't me.

[essarr71]

OblivionDawn wrote...

Based on this evidence, bringing all organics and synthetics to the same level of evolution/physiology/existence/everything else would effectively remove the barriers that caused those differences.

If that is actually what happens, you've destroyed every race/culture.  It's genocide on a galaxy-wide scale.
If it's not that, then you've changed nothing, and doesn't create peace.

Further:  Is one single magic beam going to turn future live into synthetic hybrids?  In 50 million years, will some bacteria that suddenly grows from a pool of ooze get the upgrade?  If not, than all you've done is delay what you've tried to prevent.

[EricHVela]

stuffingam wrote...

Synthesis is "the perfect union of flesh and machine."
Sound familiar?

It's what (indoctrinated) Saren, and by proxy the Reapers, preached all the way back in ME1.

Well, Saren is implanted with tech and has parts replaced by Tech.

Synthesis might mean just that, but given its vague description, it can mean lots of other things, too. It could just be DNA meddling, cellular meddling, dimensional existence meddling, and more. We just don't know what they mean by this whole "matrix" stuff. Seeing Joker with green stripes doesn't help much in figuring out what happened.

[legion999]

OblivionDawn wrote...

legion999 wrote...

OblivionDawn wrote...

comrade gando wrote...

The galaxy gets tuned into robots just like the reapers wanted. Reapers win shepard's dead. Does that sound like a good ending to you?

They don't get turned into robots. Don't let the misinformation of the forums warp your understanding of Synthesis.

The Starkid specifically says that synthetics and organics get blended together into a new framework. He didn't say that the organics get synthetic implants, or that the synthetics get organic implants. Because that isn't what happens.

Then what does happen?

Umm...

OblivionDawn wrote...

The Starkid specifically says that synthetics and organics get blended together into a new framework.

How though?

Modifié par legion999, 25 mai 2012 - 08:46 .

[Someone With Mass]

Here's one: It goes completely against the established fact that the Reapers believe in the strength of diversity, as Javik, Legion and other characters have told us.

Another one: Evolution can't be final. That would go against its purpose of existing.

Third and last one: The amount of material needed to complete the galaxy-wide transformation would be far beyond the Citadel's capacity.

[Archontor]

To be honest there were bits of it I like. I have always considered cybernetic implanting and transhumanism a good thing and the eventual path of humanity. Moreover I just assumed it would bring massive benefits, immortality, hyper intelligence, improved health for humans and healing, growth and fully developed emotion for all AI.

To me it even made sense as a way of preventing the cultural diversity of fully organic life (if not organic life itself) from dying out. Between a new sense of empathy and emotion those of synthetic origin are less likely to wage war and with the intelligence/evolution gap removed there would never be a large enough reason to start a war.

The final evolution thing didn't bother me, I just assumed the new life would be 'unaffected' Living in advanced society basically reduces anything but aesthetic selection pressure so they wouldn't really need to adapt better nor would deficient genes diminish their adaption due to advanced genetic correction.

And then I saw Joker hobble out with glowing circuitry on his skin and I was SO dissapointed, it changed nothing, Joker still has Vroliks except now ot's glowing Vroliks. That and "new framework" that was just so damned stupid. Also why did Shep need to jump to disperse his genes or whatever, couldn't he just drop some of his blood in there and run off.

[OblivionDawn]

essarr71 wrote...

OblivionDawn wrote...

Based on this evidence, bringing all organics and synthetics to the same level of evolution/physiology/existence/everything else would effectively remove the barriers that caused those differences.

If that is actually what happens, you've destroyed every race/culture.  It's genocide on a galaxy-wide scale.
If it's not that, then you've changed nothing, and doesn't create peace.

Further:  Is one single magic beam going to turn future live into synthetic hybrids?  In 50 million years, will some bacteria that suddenly grows from a pool of ooze get the upgrade?  If not, than all you've done is delay what you've tried to prevent.

I don't see how it's genocide when everyone is still alive.

And I never said that Synthesis would ensure peace forever. It would just remove the wars that arose from the paradigms saying that organics are inferior to synthetics, or that synthetics are nothing more than tools.

As for the last part of your post, I don't know the answer to that. I would assume that Synthesis changed the very foundation of biochemistry on a molecular level (hence the glowing leaves, etc).

Modifié par OblivionDawn, 25 mai 2012 - 08:32 .

[EricHVela]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Here's one: It goes completely against the established fact that the Reapers believe in the strength of diversity, as Javik, Legion and other characters have told us.

Another one: Evolution can't be final. That would go against its purpose of existing.

Third and last one: The amount of material needed to complete the galaxy-wide transformation would be far beyond the Citadel's capacity.

But they're using Commander Shepard's "energy" with the Crucible's! Shepard's energy is like the Mass Effect equivalent of a Chuck Norris meme!



Seriously, though: That's assuming we know what the energy does. It might simply take what's there and re-arrange it somehow (not completely unlike radiation messing with atoms to make a person's own cells into foriegn cells -- except the Dark Energy [in the Mass Effect universe] has been focused by Shepard's choice).

Again, we just don't know enough about Synthesis to take a gamble at applying it to all life in the Galaxy.

[JamieCardillo]

Two common responses I'd like to address:

A lot of people are saying that synthesis is playing god. Quite frankly, in my opinion, Mass Effect 3 was all about playing god. The Reapers are coming to destroy organic life, as they do every 50,000 years. As f***ed up and unjust as it is, I'd consider this part of the natural cycle, as it allows new organic life to flourish. But Commander Shepard isn't down with that bull**** because he wants humans, asari, turians, etc to continue living. Thus, he must break a cycle that has existed for an unknown amount of time.

My second point is about this "galactic rape" and "violation of consent" thing. The easy response for me to make is that there was not really any time to take a show of hands as to who would be ok with this with the small matter of helter skelter breaking out, but that doesn't really solve anything. So my response is this: when we get to the stupid scene with the Normandy crash and the crew walks out, Joker is still made of flesh, EDI of metal. At this point, it's obvious we aren't expected to understand something so complex as a new framework, but who's to say just how much really changed? After all, the only difference from the control option was glowing green eyes, right?

[EsterCloat]

OblivionDawn wrote...

What was wrong with the old framework?

Well, you kinda said it yourself.

The Reapers have a rather noticable superiority complex, and try to snuff out "lesser" organics and synthetics to that end.

As for the Geth, Shepard managed to bring them together, but you can't ignore the fact that the Morning War did happen because of irreconcilable differences (of course they turned out to be reconcilable later, but only in the face of the Reaper threat).

Based on this evidence, bringing all organics and synthetics to the same level of evolution/physiology/existence/everything else would effectively remove the barriers that caused those differences.

The Morning War happened because the quarians for the most part collectively thought, "Oh ****, the geth are getting smart. They're going to kill us since they're our slaves. Let's kill them first." That had nothing to do with them being synthetics and everything to do with enslaving a sentient species and them realizing they might not have to put up with it.

The whole reason the quarians just can't let it go is because for 300+ years they've been feeding themselves the same mantra of the geth being boogeymen that all must die since birth. That has nothing to do with them being synthetics but with them having their planet lost to them because they picked a fight they couldn't win. The same thing could have happened if the geth were an organic species construct, akin to the keepers, that suddenly began to acquire sentience. You could replace the geth with some kind of keeper/rachni analog and it wouldn't change a thing.

And no, I'm quite convinced synthesizing all life to the same "framework" would not get rid of differences. Humans fight each all the damn time and we're the same species, much less the same genetic "framework". The only thing synthesis accomplishes is making sure that when war breaks out, in the scenario of all life save for one species surviving it's still partially organic.

That's Starchild entire basis for this stupid cycle. "If we let organics continue, they'll inevitably fight synthetics and the synthetics will win and then there will be no more organic life ever." Synthesis just makes it so when that fight happens, which I don't think would happen since there's no evidence of such a thing, when only one species is left it'll still be pseudo-organic and thus "life will continue".

[Jamie9]

JamieCardillo wrote...

Two common responses I'd like to address:

A lot of people are saying that synthesis is playing god. Quite frankly, in my opinion, Mass Effect 3 was all about playing god. The Reapers are coming to destroy organic life, as they do every 50,000 years. As f***ed up and unjust as it is, I'd consider this part of the natural cycle, as it allows new organic life to flourish. But Commander Shepard isn't down with that bull**** because he wants humans, asari, turians, etc to continue living. Thus, he must break a cycle that has existed for an unknown amount of time.

My second point is about this "galactic rape" and "violation of consent" thing. The easy response for me to make is that there was not really any time to take a show of hands as to who would be ok with this with the small matter of helter skelter breaking out, but that doesn't really solve anything. So my response is this: when we get to the stupid scene with the Normandy crash and the crew walks out, Joker is still made of flesh, EDI of metal. At this point, it's obvious we aren't expected to understand something so complex as a new framework, but who's to say just how much really changed? After all, the only difference from the control option was glowing green eyes, right?

The only difference is a colour change because BioWare was incredibly lazy.

I'll answer your second point. It is and it isn't. We don't know what it does. All we know is that common sense says it isn't possible. If we can't comprehend something, my instinct is to not change every sodding being in the galaxy into that "framework".

It's not as if synthesis is the only choice. Control and destroy are viable options that work in the Mass Effect setting. I'll just never pick synthesis. Well, I won't play the game again until the Extended Cut, and only if it's good.

[TheWerdna]

Because it means compromising with the Reapers to allow them to live. Ya, sorry catalyst ; not going to happen. They never gave us that option, and are only now willing to compromise when I am about 5 seconds away from destroying all of them.

Modifié par TheWerdna, 25 mai 2012 - 08:36 .

[Zuka999]

Because its not possible. It just can't happen. Its freaking nonsense.

[TheWerdna]

The sad part is, I am sure Bioware intended Synthesis to be the best ending

[unoriginalname1133]

 I think that there are a few outstanding issues with Synthesis. For one, there is a legitimate question over whether it is right to fundementally alter all life in the galaxy with no input from anyone. For me, though, Synthesis comes with a message that I just cannot stomach; that the only way to achieve peace is to force everyone to be the same. The way I see it, choosing Synthesis is tantamount to saying that differences are inherently bad, and that everything that makes a culture unique must be removed to eliminate conflict. This is directly stated to be the case for the supposed conflict between organics and synthetics, with an added suggestion that this is true of all life.

This goes against my views of both the game and real life. Concentrating on just the game, though, Shepard has the potential at many points to show that cooperation is possible between all living creatures. Whether its in small ways, like getting that batarian in Mordin's recruitment mission to change his views about humans, or in large ways, like resolving the war between the geth and quarians, my Shepard diminished or resolved conflicts without invalidating the things that made each culture different and great. Other Shepards may be different, but the endings were supposed to reflect out choices, right?

Besides, even if you accept that conflict between synthetics and organics is inevitible (I don't, but I digress), Synthesis doesn't even solve this problem. Some of the reasons Tali gives for the quarians' creation for the geth included creating workers for menial or dangerous tasks. There is no reason to assume that the new hybrid race would be any more willing to do these menial and dangerous jobs themselves. So what's to stop them from creating more pure syntetics to do these jobs? So all that Synthesis does, then, is replace organics vs synthetics with hybrids vs synthetics. 

And as you pointed out yourself, Synthesis is by far the most non-sensical and space-magicky of all the space magic endings, and brings with it the most confusion and unanswerable practical questions.

So yeah, I and many others do not care for synthesis

Modifié par unoriginalname1133, 25 mai 2012 - 08:45 .

[o Ventus]

OblivionDawn wrote...

The Starkid specifically says that synthetics and organics get blended together into a new framework. He didn't say that the organics get synthetic implants, or that the synthetics get organic implants. Because that isn't what happens.

If that isn't what happens, then what did he mean? I'm looking for an actual answer involving the "Framework" and "DNA" the catalyst mentioned, not something stupid and metaphysical.

[Dark_Caduceus]

It misses the tone and theme of the story, makes no sense, isn't at all an ideal solution to any of the problems raised in the story and is just plain stupid.

[EricHVela]

o Ventus wrote...

OblivionDawn wrote...

The Starkid specifically says that synthetics and organics get blended together into a new framework. He didn't say that the organics get synthetic implants, or that the synthetics get organic implants. Because that isn't what happens.

If that isn't what happens, then what did he mean? I'm looking for an actual answer involving the "Framework" and "DNA" the catalyst mentioned, not something stupid and metaphysical.

Unfortunately since BWE didn't give us much to define what Synthesis meant, metaphysical stuff is just one of many possibilities.

Yet, this still goes back to a crap-shoot on whether or not it will be a good thing for the Galaxy, a crap-shoot that one person is making for everyone else.

(At least, the races eventually united to fight the Reapers. The races are completely out-of-the-loop on this choice. They are not even aware the choice is happening.)