212 réponses à ce sujet

[o Ventus]

OblivionDawn wrote...

In the end, what Starkid says is what happens. He isn't lying to you; you see it for yourself during the end of the game.

He told me that Shepard was going to die, due to his synthetic implants.

Shepard sort of... didn't die.

[jijeebo]

I always thought Saren got into bed with Sovereign because he was trying to prove that he could be useful and as such skip the part where he is reaped.

Then Shep had a chat with him and his resolve waivered and he got scared that Sov was using him and would kill him anyway... So Sov implanted him and he went all "CHECK IT OUT SHEP SOV TOTES UPGRADED ME CUZ I'M SPECIAL, HE SO AWESOME!" and then died.


I don't remember him petitioning for organics and synthetics to merge and become one and the same with a new DNA... He just bragged about how amazing he was after Sov implanted him, indoctrinated into believing that it wasn't just to make him more subservient..



But I haven't played ME1 in a while and never really got Synthesis... So that might be why I didn't make the connection myself.

[His Name was HYR!!]

essarr71 wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

essarr71 wrote...

Others here might be determined to debate with you, but I have no desire.  You're so clearly over your head, I'd honestly rather keep reading your posts.  Hockey game doesn't start for another 2 hours.

Watch a sport where the entertainment is the game itself, not stupid fights.

This coming from someone who loves to have stupid fights on the internet is hilarious.

It's not a fight, it's discussion/debate. Which is... kind of the point of a forum.

Then again this is BSN afterall, where having an opinion going against the grain = "trolling."

[The Milky Waver]

Saren was indoctrinated, and he thought otherwise, but eventually started goading Shepard into joining him in the "pinnacle of evolution". So yeah, he did support an individual "synthesis" with the reapers, or "proving his worth" in his thoughts. But in the actual ending, the entire galaxy becomes 50 percent organic and 50 percent synthetic, which isn't exactly what Saren wanted.

Modifié par The Milky Waver, 25 mai 2012 - 10:41 .

[OblivionDawn]

o Ventus wrote...

OblivionDawn wrote...

In the end, what Starkid says is what happens. He isn't lying to you; you see it for yourself during the end of the game.

He told me that Shepard was going to die, due to his synthetic implants.

Shepard sort of... didn't die.

He said "even you are partly synthetic."

Clearly he worded it so that your fate was uncertain if you chose Destroy.

Unlike Control. He said you would definitely die, and you did.

[Omanisat]

legion999 wrote...

Omanisat wrote...

@ Legion999: No they're not. If a husk is synthesis then a guy with a pacemaker of fake leg is a synthesis being, after all would that not be a fusion of metal and flesh? Synthesis is much more fundemental, it changes people at the most basic level. 

A husk is when they replace most of the organic parts with Synthetics. To me that's synthesis. However to you it's not. That's not going to change so I think it would be best if we stopped debating/argueing about it.

In fact sometimes it's more than one organic being, fused. That's the defintion of synthesis right there. Wouldn't husks not be a case of synthesis then but Cannibals, Praetorians, Scions and Brutes be a result of synthesis?

To me it's a much more fundemantal change. A husk or praetorian can still be placed in either the synthetic or organic pile. They might have been horribly altered and manipulated, but the base building blocks can still be considered one or the other. 

A being created by the catalyst is... something else. A third option, a seperate pile, whose building blocks resemble nothing else we've seen.

OT: I hope you haven't been taking offense, I wasn't trying to insult.

[Apocaleepse360]

Thank you.

I keep telling this to people - Saren did not support synthesis. He wanted organics to surrender and become tools for the Reapers to use, not like they would anyway since their objective is to destroy the cycle's most intelligent organic life, not enslave them.

And to be honest, I'm sick of these debates. The endings - all three, destroy, control, synthesis - were terrible. I'd rather have an ending where my choices mattered, and I'd get a good or bad ending depending on them.

Modifié par Apocaleepse360, 25 mai 2012 - 10:44 .

[His Name was HYR!!]

 

o Ventus wrote...

The Thanix Cannon isn't directly Reaper tech, it's based off of Sovereign's gun, but it isn't directly made from it.

EDI is some of the same deal.

Not sure what to make of the IFF. It's an IFF, so it doesn't really make sense (nor would it be practical) for it to brainwash already brainwashed organic servants. 

And the Citadel? [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/whistling.png[/smilie] 

o Ventus wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Rachni Queen from ME1 in ME3: Sour yellow note! We hear it! The thing referred to as indoctrination from ME1! All but confirmed in ME2! But no, we are not actually indoctrinated somehow.
Lawful good Paragon white knight: She said she's not indoctrinated, let's let her go.

So indoctrination rolls over into newer generations? The rachni queen that was indoctrinated X millenia ago is somehow transmitting this to the current queen?

What about the Reaper tech lying around in that cave, where she's been holed up for who knows how long?

[o Ventus]

OblivionDawn wrote...


Clearly

With this single word, you mangled any credibility you may have had.

[o Ventus]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

 

o Ventus wrote...

The Thanix Cannon isn't directly Reaper tech, it's based off of Sovereign's gun, but it isn't directly made from it.

EDI is some of the same deal.

Not sure what to make of the IFF. It's an IFF, so it doesn't really make sense (nor would it be practical) for it to brainwash already brainwashed organic servants. 

And the Citadel? [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/whistling.png[/smilie] 

The Citadel turning everyone into mouth breathing, window licking crazies would sort of defeat the purpose of trying to advance the species along a set path.

[His Name was HYR!!]

jijeebo wrote...

I always thought Saren got into bed with Sovereign because he was trying to prove that he could be useful and as such skip the part where he is reaped.

And that's exactly it.

[RADIUMEYEZ]

[OblivionDawn]

o Ventus wrote...

OblivionDawn wrote...


Clearly

With this single word, you mangled any credibility you may have had.

Not really.

No matter how I word it, the fact remains that it's obvious that the Starchild purposely leaves your fate ambiguous for the destroy ending. My credbility is intact, you are simply unequipped to counter the argument.

[His Name was HYR!!]

o Ventus wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

 

o Ventus wrote...

The Thanix Cannon isn't directly Reaper tech, it's based off of Sovereign's gun, but it isn't directly made from it.

EDI is some of the same deal.

Not sure what to make of the IFF. It's an IFF, so it doesn't really make sense (nor would it be practical) for it to brainwash already brainwashed organic servants. 

And the Citadel? [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/whistling.png[/smilie] 

The Citadel turning everyone into mouth breathing, window licking crazies would sort of defeat the purpose of trying to advance the species along a set path.

So not all Reaper tech indoctrinates? 

[legion999]

Omanisat wrote...

legion999 wrote...

Omanisat wrote...

@ Legion999: No they're not. If a husk is synthesis then a guy with a pacemaker of fake leg is a synthesis being, after all would that not be a fusion of metal and flesh? Synthesis is much more fundemental, it changes people at the most basic level. 

A husk is when they replace most of the organic parts with Synthetics. To me that's synthesis. However to you it's not. That's not going to change so I think it would be best if we stopped debating/argueing about it.

In fact sometimes it's more than one organic being, fused. That's the defintion of synthesis right there. Wouldn't husks not be a case of synthesis then but Cannibals, Praetorians, Scions and Brutes be a result of synthesis?

To me it's a much more fundemantal change. A husk or praetorian can still be placed in either the synthetic or organic pile. They might have been horribly altered and manipulated, but the base building blocks can still be considered one or the other. 

A being created by the catalyst is... something else. A third option, a seperate pile, whose building blocks resemble nothing else we've seen.

OT: I hope you haven't been taking offense, I wasn't trying to insult.

I understand. I don't really agree but I understand.

And do you mean me with: "I hope you haven't been taking offense, I wasn't trying to insult."?
Because if so I haven't taken offence.

[Omanisat]

essarr71 wrote...

Omanisat wrote...

essarr71 wrote...

Omanisat wrote...

No they're not. If a husk is synthesis then a guy with a pacemaker of fake leg is a synthesis being, after all would that not be a fusion of metal and flesh?

Technically, he is.  We're not talking about a few screws in someones hip.  It's an artificial organ - technology - working with and maintaining an organic being.

Quick edit: A fake leg wouldn't be that no.  The organic in question can survive without a leg.  He dies without the pacemaker.

Yes, but they're still at their most basic a human. The magic green light did much more then give every organic a few replacement organs and every synthetic a heart of their very own. If it was that basic it wouldn't involve DNA. 

That's one of my problems with synthesis. It's such a profound change from what we know, Bioware did a very poor job explaining it.

Ok.. Then explain to me exactly how many artificial parts you need to become a synthetic?  3?  5?  Or do you only become one when you get seemingly irrelevant green glowing ciruit boards thru your skin?

It's hard for me to explain what I believe true synthesis is because we as a people lack the frame of reference required, but here's the best I got:

To me it's a much more fundemantal change then simply putting machinery in organics or meat into synthetics. A husk or praetorian can still be placed in either the synthetic or organic pile. They might have been horribly altered and manipulated, but the base building blocks can still be considered one or the other. 

A being created by the catalyst is... something else. A third option, a seperate pile, whose building blocks resemble nothing else we've seen.

[Vespervin]

[NS Wizdum]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...


So literally every other character who's come into contact with Reaper tech can get indoctrinated (sans Shepard, we need a playable character), but just because TIM, I'm automatically wrong?

What about the Normandy crew hanging around Reaper tech? (IFF, Thanix cannon, EDI...)

The Reaper IFF is software, the Thanix Cannon is designed after Reaper tech, not made out of it, and EDI was based on Reaper code, she does not have Reaper hardware.

[jijeebo]

RADIUMEYEZ wrote...

LOL I actually like this thread but this is ridiculously awesome.

[o Ventus]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

 

o Ventus wrote...

The Thanix Cannon isn't directly Reaper tech, it's based off of Sovereign's gun, but it isn't directly made from it.

EDI is some of the same deal.

Not sure what to make of the IFF. It's an IFF, so it doesn't really make sense (nor would it be practical) for it to brainwash already brainwashed organic servants. 

And the Citadel? [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/whistling.png[/smilie] 

The Citadel turning everyone into mouth breathing, window licking crazies would sort of defeat the purpose of trying to advance the species along a set path.

So not all Reaper tech indoctrinates? 

Yes, depending on the intent of the tech. The Citadel seems to be the only piece of Reaper tech (Made by the Reapers themselves, not repurposed by organics or derived from by organics) that doesn't indoctrinate people.

Technically, the Citadel isn't even Reaper tech, it's catalyst tech, but I digress.

Modifié par o Ventus, 25 mai 2012 - 10:59 .

[essarr71]

Omanisat wrote...

It's hard for me to explain what I believe true synthesis is because we as a people lack the frame of reference required, but here's the best I got:

To me it's a much more fundemantal change then simply putting machinery in organics or meat into synthetics. A husk or praetorian can still be placed in either the synthetic or organic pile. They might have been horribly altered and manipulated, but the base building blocks can still be considered one or the other. 

A being created by the catalyst is... something else. A third option, a seperate pile, whose building blocks resemble nothing else we've seen.

But synthesis (as it's presented in ME3) isn't joining synthetic life and organic life together ie: combining the Geth and Humans.  Each race is augmented with opposite parts.  One can assume that removing these parts would be leathal.

A pacemaker isn't alive, nor would be alive outside a body.  Same goes for a human heart.  But put a pacemaker into a human and the pacemaker operates as it is meant to and the person lives.  Figure out a way to power a computer with a heart and etc etc.

I understand why you'd think something as simple as a pacemaker wouldn't make life synthetic.. but consider: the person that can only live with a pacemaker SHOULD be a dead organic.  He lives because of his synthetic parts.  He cannot exist without them anymore than tearing out a motherboard from a computer would allow it to function.

[xsdob]

I'm just gonna post what I wrote in this thread for explaining why synthesis and reaper huskification are not the same and for why saren does not support synthesis.

Also, he says that organics need to bow down to synthetics and become subservient to them and cites this as why the protheans were wiped out, that's not what synthesis entails.

quoting begins now.

{{{I;m sorry, but from what I can gather you are wrong. The reapers do not mix organic and synthetic parts to make husk, they use nanaites to convert the organic tissue into a building material for their own synthetics to create. Husk are basically hollowed out organics whose bodies are used to house synthetic parts.

The process is not an even mix or blending of the 2, it's synthetics dominating the organic matter and converting it into synthetic matter. The same goes for the reapers, they turn organics into a base material and use it to create artificial metal and synthetic parts to construct themselves. See the pattern here, synthetic components dominating organic components, not blending together to create a new component.

Saren argues for organics to submit and become building material for the reapers, not for a perfect blend where both synthetic and organic parts are altered. Also, in synthesis we see the reapers and edi undergo effects from synthesis as well, so they are not left unchanged and unaltered as they are when creating husk. Their tech changes their host, their tech does not change with the host, thus there is a clear difference between the 2.

So, synthesis is not a reaper trap nor something saren argued for, it is a middle ground of changing everyone so that they no longer have a definite difference to wage a war based of their origins or physiology.}}}

And now for the second part, how domination is not the same as fusion.

"

xsdob wrote...

{censored for user consideration} wrote...

xsdob wrote...

{Censored for user consideration} wrote...

xsdob wrote...

I;m sorry, but from what I can gather you are wrong. The reapers do not mix organic and synthetic parts to make husk, they use nanaites to convert the organic tissue into a building material for their own synthetics to create. Husk are basically hollowed out organics whose bodies are used to house synthetic parts.
.

That's mixing orgaic and synthetic parts.{smilie}

Dominating is not the same as mixing. To mix them would suggest that both the organic and synthetic material is merged and belnds together to create a new being. The reaper tech changes and converts the organic material to suit it's needs without changing itself, there is no mixing or exchange in that process, just organics being converted and synthetics staying the same.

You miss understanding......Nanaites are still synthetic parts. Using nansites to change organics is still merging synthetis with organics...It'scal cleaner form of implantation.

Let me give you a cullinary example of what I mean.

Say I take flour and mix it with water, the flour turns the water into a thicker white paste, this is a mix. The two substances blend and lose individual properties while gaining a new one. This is what synthesis does.

Now say I took a rock with some dirt on it and threw it into a glass of water. The dirt comes off a little and can temporarily mix together but will eventually and rather quickly seperate into sediment and water without a force acting on it. Also the rock doesn't blend or change, it stays completly static. This is reaper huskification, the water is changed, it now contains sediment and probably taste bad, but the rock and dirt itself remain mostly unchanged at all.

End of quote.

{{{And now for the end of my post after the user again disagreed by saying that nanites do fuse with the body and are a synthesis.

"The nanties don't change. They change the organic material but remain unaltered by the process. They are still nanites and they still convert organic material into synthetic material. They do not alter in the process nor do they change at all, they force the organic material to change and that is why they are not an example of synthesis.

That's like saying that because I had a tracking gps chaip and id tag placed in my pets in case they ran away, that I have fused a gps and id tag and my pets together.

Being in the body does not make it a fusion, having a tape worm does not make the person a perfect blend of man and parasite with the strengths of both and the weakness of neither.

Saren was indoctrinated, and he spoke about the implants this way, but that does not make synthesis the same. Synthesis is an even, and let me just stress this more, even and non slanted, exchange and blending of organic and synthetic properties.

If saren really was a perfect union of the 2 than sovereign wouldn't have been able to burn off all of sarens organic material and use the synthetic parts like a puppet, his whole body would have been destroyed.}}}

That's all from me.

Modifié par xsdob, 25 mai 2012 - 11:22 .

[ZackG312]

Xellith wrote...

"Sovreign has.. upgraded me. The relationship is symbiotic. Organic and machine intertwined. A union of flesh and steel. I am a vision of the future shepard".

Just played Mass Effect 1 this week and yup he  says this.  sounds like something the star kid told Shepard

[Shallyah]

This thread only brings Saren closer to Synthesis ending.

Modifié par Shallyah, 25 mai 2012 - 11:44 .