212 réponses à ce sujet

[Shallyah]

Shepard: So you're just too cowardly to fight?
Saren: Yeah. Sorry about that. *shoots self*

Or in other words:

Harbinger: So you're just too cowardly to fight?
Shepard: Yeah. Sorry about that. *jumps into the Synthesis-ending beam*

Modifié par Shallyah, 25 mai 2012 - 11:48 .

[YonatanJ]

Saren only beings mentioning the Synthesis between Organics and Synthetics after Sovereign gives him the implants due to Saren's mental resistance to the indoctration. That happens AFTER Shepard tries to talk him out of it on Virmire, where Saren clearly states subservience is the solution. Due to Sovereign's direct control over Saren, he attemptes to convince Shepard at the Citadel synthesis is the solution to the repear-organic problem. It was never his intention in the first place.

Modifié par YonatanJ, 25 mai 2012 - 11:47 .

[poundoffleshaa]

Actually the Saren supports Synthesis has always been about the reapers supporting synthesis (indoctrination) but really the catalyst himself (reaper kings) says its his favourite solution so the debate is a bit pointless.

[Omanisat]

essarr71 wrote...

Omanisat wrote...

It's hard for me to explain what I believe true synthesis is because we as a people lack the frame of reference required, but here's the best I got:

To me it's a much more fundemantal change then simply putting machinery in organics or meat into synthetics. A husk or praetorian can still be placed in either the synthetic or organic pile. They might have been horribly altered and manipulated, but the base building blocks can still be considered one or the other. 

A being created by the catalyst is... something else. A third option, a seperate pile, whose building blocks resemble nothing else we've seen.

But synthesis (as it's presented in ME3) isn't joining synthetic life and organic life together ie: combining the Geth and Humans.  Each race is augmented with opposite parts.  One can assume that removing these parts would be leathal.

A pacemaker isn't alive, nor would be alive outside a body.  Same goes for a human heart.  But put a pacemaker into a human and the pacemaker operates as it is meant to and the person lives.  Figure out a way to power a computer with a heart and etc etc.

I understand why you'd think something as simple as a pacemaker wouldn't make life synthetic.. but consider: the person that can only live with a pacemaker SHOULD be a dead organic.  He lives because of his synthetic parts.  He cannot exist without them anymore than tearing out a motherboard from a computer would allow it to function.

I oversimplified. If I have a pacemaker or even a artifical heart, yes I'm dependant on it working, but we are two seperate things. I'm an organic with a synthetic device inside my body. My being dependant on the device doesn't change the fact I am one thing and it is another.

Were I to be synthesized however both I and the pacemaker would be converted into a third form of life, equally different from both organic or synthetic.

[M Hedonist]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Sauruz wrote...

How do you know your version of Synthesis is different than Saren's? Reaper king tells you so, right.

It's funny what people choose to believe and not to believe.

Rachni Queen from ME1 in ME3: Sour yellow note! We hear it! The thing referred to as indoctrination from ME1! All but confirmed in ME2! But no, we are not actually indoctrinated somehow.
Lawful good Paragon white knight: She said she's not indoctrinated, let's let her go.

But Catalyst? Noooooo no no no no no. Reaper king! Enemy! Do not believe a word! Only the Destroy path can be correct because it's what *I* have been working for from the beginning!

Rachni Queen turns out to be good, therefore we can trust the Reaper king. Yes, that makes sense.

[acidic-ph0]

Who cares if he did or didn't? What's really the kicker is that SOVEREIGN itself supports synthesis... Kinda makes choosing the green flavored ending in ME3 all the more terrible

Sovereign: We are eternal. The pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything.

[Dendio1]

Kai Leng: Evolve or Die

Saren: I am the future

[hoodaticus]

Saren IS Synthesis. Take a good long look into his eyes, and then look at your own eyes when you choose it.

"The eyes are the window to the soul." - Jesus

Modifié par hoodaticus, 26 mai 2012 - 12:32 .

[hoodaticus]

o Ventus wrote...

OblivionDawn wrote...


Clearly

With this single word, you mangled any credibility you may have had.

I smell someone with legal training...

[moater boat]

Omanisat wrote...

Saren supported subservience, not synthesis.

You seem to assume that allowing the Reaper king to implant all organics with his own hardware is not subservience. Do you understand the concept of freedom?

[Zardoc]

You convince Saren he's wrong. That's not a valid point against Saren being for Synthesis.

[wizardryforever]

Xellith wrote...

"Sovreign has.. upgraded me. The relationship is symbiotic. Organic and machine intertwined. A union of flesh and steel. I am a vision of the future shepard".

And that is true.  The future Shepard is cybernetic.

Just drop the Saren angle, please.  You have to seriously stretch both Saren's words and Synthesis to make them tie together, and even then it's a bad fit.

[Omanisat]

moater boat wrote...

Omanisat wrote...

Saren supported subservience, not synthesis.

You seem to assume that allowing the Reaper king to implant all organics with his own hardware is not subservience. Do you understand the concept of freedom?

What are you talking about? We're talking about Saren. Star-Jar, the Crucible and space magic are still 5 years away. Saren's plan is for all organics to become husks, which are not the same thing as synthesis beings.

[Catamantaloedis]

Synthesis is an abomination. Saren was an abomination. Anyone who supports this terrible choice is an abomination, in need of a swift, but painful execution.

Modifié par Catamantaloedis, 26 mai 2012 - 02:05 .

[Sisterofshane]

Omanisat wrote...

Saren supported subservience, not synthesis.

Saren advocated subservience THROUGH synthesis - he had been indoctrinated to think that the Reapers had no use for "pure" organics or synthetics (he's always downin' on the heretics, remember?).  He implanted himself to make himself more useful to Sovereign, and tried to convince Shepard to do the same ("You've impressed it Shepard...).


You can't really argue that the cybernetics aren't the same thing, because the Catalyst tells Shepard that he [with alll of his cybernetics} is already well on the path [to synthesis].

Besides, being able to persuade/intimidate Saren into believing he was wrong doesn't negate the fact that he was promoting it in the first place.  OP's argument is invalid.

[Omanisat]

Sisterofshane wrote...

Omanisat wrote...

Saren supported subservience, not synthesis.

Saren advocated subservience THROUGH synthesis - he had been indoctrinated to think that the Reapers had no use for "pure" organics or synthetics (he's always downin' on the heretics, remember?).  He implanted himself to make himself more useful to Sovereign, and tried to convince Shepard to do the same ("You've impressed it Shepard...).


You can't really argue that the cybernetics aren't the same thing, because the Catalyst tells Shepard that he [with alll of his cybernetics} is already well on the path [to synthesis].

Besides, being able to persuade/intimidate Saren into believing he was wrong doesn't negate the fact that he was promoting it in the first place.  OP's argument is invalid.

Saren was a glorified husk. He wants to turn all other organics into husks as well. Husks are not synthesis beings.

And contrary to the kid EDI states that despite all his implants Shepard is still human. None of the implants he recieved altered his DNA. The catalyst does. That implies to me that the change is far more basic then simple husking. 

Modifié par Omanisat, 26 mai 2012 - 02:16 .

[Fingertrip]

Do not feed the troll people.

Joined: 2012-03-14
Welcome.

[wizardryforever]

Sisterofshane wrote...

Omanisat wrote...

Saren supported subservience, not synthesis.

Saren advocated subservience THROUGH synthesis - he had been indoctrinated to think that the Reapers had no use for "pure" organics or synthetics (he's always downin' on the heretics, remember?).  He implanted himself to make himself more useful to Sovereign, and tried to convince Shepard to do the same ("You've impressed it Shepard...).


You can't really argue that the cybernetics aren't the same thing, because the Catalyst tells Shepard that he [with alll of his cybernetics} is already well on the path [to synthesis].

Besides, being able to persuade/intimidate Saren into believing he was wrong doesn't negate the fact that he was promoting it in the first place.  OP's argument is invalid.

Saren advocated Shepard try out cybernetic augmentation.  He didn't say that he wanted to cybernetically augment everyone, hell, he doesn't even try to force it on Shepard.  He just attacks.  His dialogue was more along the lines of "Hey, these cybernetics are totally awesome!  You should try it out!"  And not "Haha!  Now all people in the galaxy shall be just like me!"

[hoodaticus]

Omanisat wrote...
Saren was a glorified husk. He wants to turn all other organics into husks as well. Husks are not synthesis beings.

Husks are Reaper-created hybrids of organic and non-organic parts fusing into a single whole.  The only difference with synthesis is... [crickets chirping].

[Omanisat]

hoodaticus wrote...

Omanisat wrote...
Saren was a glorified husk. He wants to turn all other organics into husks as well. Husks are not synthesis beings.

Husks are Reaper-created hybrids of organic and non-organic parts fusing into a single whole.  The only difference with synthesis is... [crickets chirping].

Husks are organic beings that have been extensively altered and augmented with synthetic components. They are still organic/synthetic.

Synthesis beings are a third form of life, seperate and distinct from both organics and synthetics.

[wizardryforever]

hoodaticus wrote...

Omanisat wrote...
Saren was a glorified husk. He wants to turn all other organics into husks as well. Husks are not synthesis beings.

Husks are Reaper-created hybrids of organic and non-organic parts fusing into a single whole.  The only difference with synthesis is... [crickets chirping].

The difference is that husks are created by removing large portions of an organic's body and replacing it with tech.  Synthesis simply adds, without removing.

[Sisterofshane]

Omanisat wrote...

Saren was a glorified husk. 

And contrary to the kid EDI states that despite all his implants Shepard is still human. None of the implants he recieved altered his DNA. The catalyst does. That implies to me that the change is far more basic then simple husking. 

None of this changes the fact that SYNTHESIS was what Saren believed he had chosen over imminent destruction by the Reapers.

Besides, I believe that when the Catalyst talks about a new "DNA" I believe he is metaphorically describing what he can to Shepard, who has limited time to make a decision and (possibly) a limited understanding of exactly the way in which everyone is about to be changed.  Everything he talks about "points" to the fact that it is some sort of implantation that takes place on such a minute level as to be almost undectectable (last part based on the after-crucible sequence).

>He calls it the "final" evolution for organic life.  Taking a number from trans/post-humanist arguments, many believe this to be a stage in which humans supplement many parts of themselves for "superior" mechanical parts.  This would pretty much negate the need for "genetic" evolution.

>He believes Shepard to be on the "path" to Synthesis (at least according to the leaked script, in which the only essential change is that the description is 'dumbed down').  Does Shepard have different DNA from others?  No, what Shepard has is a possible (depending upon the upgrades persued in ME2) high level of cybernetic implantation.  Besides, it is Shepard himself which provides the "template" for the Synthesis - how exactly does he "change" everyone's DNA to a new, previoulsy unknown type of hybrid DNA if he doesn't yet posess it himself?

I think that what we see from the Reapers are varying levels/types of Synthesis.  The husks are types in which TOO much of the organic processes are supplanted with Tech (like Mordin says about the Collectors).  The Reapers themselves retain a bit more (Organic minds supposedly live on through them), but they are still mostly mechanical.  I believe that the Synthesis that the Catalyst proposes would be some where on the line between Shepard (a large level of implantation, but still mostly organic) and the Reapers.

[Sisterofshane]

wizardryforever wrote...

Saren advocated Shepard try out cybernetic augmentation.  He didn't say that he wanted to cybernetically augment everyone, hell, he doesn't even try to force it on Shepard.  He just attacks.  His dialogue was more along the lines of "Hey, these cybernetics are totally awesome!  You should try it out!"  And not "Haha!  Now all people in the galaxy shall be just like me!"

Saren believed himself to be spared because of Synthesis.  On Virmire, he specifically argues that it would be better for us to "surrender" and be "servants" - and his exact form of servitude was by being cybernetically implanted.  So while he didn't advocate in saving the entire galaxy, he did believe that Synthetic-Organic beings were the only ones in which the Reapers would deem "worthy" of allowing to live.  It has the same basic arguments that the Synthesis ending has in ME3.

[balance5050]

Thermodynamics, there is not enough energy present in the galaxy to scan every atom, let alone magically change said atom to a different element.

Synthesis is a mathematical impossibility.

[jijeebo]

Fingertrip wrote...

Do not feed the troll people.

Joined: 2012-03-14
Welcome.

He joined a few days after ME3 was released so he's a troll?

Yeah, cuz it wouldn't have been anything to do with the endings to the game he probably just finished, not at all. <_<