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Saren did not support synthesis.


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#126
Sisterofshane

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HYR 2.0 wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Xellith wrote...

"Sovreign has.. upgraded me. The relationship is symbiotic. Organic and machine intertwined. A union of flesh and steel. I am a vision of the future shepard".


The Illusive Man also implanted himself, did he support synthesis? No.

Saren's real motives for joining the Reapers comes out in the dialogue after that line.


I'll just repost this for the many 'haters who aren't keen on reading through things (it should come as no surprise that they are no fans of reading!)


And your point being?  No two indoctrinated persons/aliens believes in the same "idea".

TIM believed he could control them.
Kenson believed that she should allow them to come, because they weren't really evil.
Benezia believed that she should follow Saren.
Rana Thanoptis believed that she should blow up Asari Dignitaries.

The point we were trying to make with Saren is that, through indoctrination, he supported the idea of "synthesis" (being a combination of tech/organic).  It was around long before the Catalyst "saw" the option in the crucible.

Being able to convince him he was "wrong" does not negate the fact that he supported it in the first place.
The fact that other people have never believed in Synthesis since does not negate the fact that he supported Synthesis.

#127
Dormin

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The idea that illusive man was indoctrinated by the Reapers all along ultimately undermines ME2....yet again.

Saren on the other hand, his goal was surviving the cycle and "Saving more lives than have ever existed" he allied with Sovereign for self-preservation, not to meld machines and organics, but to form an alliance through subservience. I can see where people are getting the idea from, but I see it as a misinterpretation. Synthesis is a consequence of allying with the Reapers.

Going back to the Illusive man for a moment, he implanted himself with Reaper tech. Does this mean he is promoting both Synthesis and Control? I think not.

Modifié par Dormin, 26 mai 2012 - 05:01 .


#128
BatmanTurian

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Dormin wrote...

The idea that illusive man was indoctrinated by the Reapers all along ultimately undermines ME2....yet again.

Saren on the other hand, his goal was surviving the cycle and "Saving more lives than have ever existed" he allied with Sovereign for self-preservation, not to meld machines and organics, but to form an alliance through subservience. I can see where people are getting the idea from, but I see it as a misinterpretation. Synthesis is a consequence of allying with the Reapers.

Going back to the Illusive man for a moment, he implanted himself with Reaper tech. Does this mean he is promoting both Synthesis and Control? I think not.


He implanted himself with Reaper tech to control husks. Control husks. Of course it had nothing to do with Synthesis.

#129
Sisterofshane

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Dormin wrote...

The idea that illusive man was indoctrinated by the Reapers all along ultimately undermines ME2....yet again.

Saren on the other hand, his goal was surviving the cycle and "Saving more lives than have ever existed" he allied with Sovereign for self-preservation, not to meld machines and organics, but to form an alliance through subservience. I can see where people are getting the idea from, but I see it as a misinterpretation. Synthesis is a consequence of allying with the Reapers.

Going back to the Illusive man for a moment, he implanted himself with Reaper tech. Does this mean he is promoting both Synthesis and Control? I think not.


He did this, however, because he believed that "pure" organics would have no place alongside the Reapers.  He "synthesized" himself to make himself more useful to Sovereign, and believed that any joining him would have to do the same.  The purpose of his synthesis was different, but at it's fundamentals it was exactly the same.

#130
Dormin

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BatmanTurian wrote...

Dormin wrote...

The idea that illusive man was indoctrinated by the Reapers all along ultimately undermines ME2....yet again.

Saren on the other hand, his goal was surviving the cycle and "Saving more lives than have ever existed" he allied with Sovereign for self-preservation, not to meld machines and organics, but to form an alliance through subservience. I can see where people are getting the idea from, but I see it as a misinterpretation. Synthesis is a consequence of allying with the Reapers.

Going back to the Illusive man for a moment, he implanted himself with Reaper tech. Does this mean he is promoting both Synthesis and Control? I think not.


He implanted himself with Reaper tech to control husks. Control husks. Of course it had nothing to do with Synthesis.


Exactly my point, he fused flesh and machine with a goal of control of the Reapers. Saren fused flesh and machine with a goal of SURVIVAL, Synthesis was simply a consequence of this. I'm not arguing Illusive mans motives, I'm arguing that people claiming that Saren was acting with a goal of Synthesis might as well claim Illusive man also was.

Modifié par Dormin, 26 mai 2012 - 06:04 .


#131
Sisterofshane

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Dormin wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Dormin wrote...

The idea that illusive man was indoctrinated by the Reapers all along ultimately undermines ME2....yet again.

Saren on the other hand, his goal was surviving the cycle and "Saving more lives than have ever existed" he allied with Sovereign for self-preservation, not to meld machines and organics, but to form an alliance through subservience. I can see where people are getting the idea from, but I see it as a misinterpretation. Synthesis is a consequence of allying with the Reapers.

Going back to the Illusive man for a moment, he implanted himself with Reaper tech. Does this mean he is promoting both Synthesis and Control? I think not.


He implanted himself with Reaper tech to control husks. Control husks. Of course it had nothing to do with Synthesis.


Exactly my point, he fused flesh and machine with a goal of control of the Reapers. Saren fused flesh and machine with a goal of SURVIVAL, Synthesis was simply a consequence of this. I'm not arguing Illusive mans motives, I'm arguing that people claiming that Saren was pro Synthesis might as well claim Illusive man also was.


Tehcnically, he was.

The problem here is not that Saren/Illusive Man supported synthesis (at least in a very fundamental sense).  It's the idea that the Catalyst believes that THIS is the end of all conflict between machines and organics.  We are thematically shown EXACTLY how well that assumption worked for both the Illusive Man and Saren.

What we want is any reason to believe that choosing to Synthesize the entire galaxy would lead to ANYTHING good (as the devs would suggest this to be the "best" ending, as it is the hardest to achieve and it requires the highest EMS to unlock), when all that we have been shown is tells us that synthesis is pretty much the Reaper's wet dream.

#132
His Name was HYR!!

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Greylycantrope wrote...

So,"Don't use sections of in game dialogue to support your argument that makes you stupid. But I'm using different sections of in game dialogue to support my argument therefore I'm right."?  :pinched: your logic hurts


Because it's no different than this:

Regurgiating random quotations without showing what it means is the reason why so many of us are here now. If you look only at a small portion of dialogue and jump to conclusions, you make invalid statements such as "Saren supported synthesis, because, he said SOMETHING about machines and organics together."

Machine and organics together could simply entail complicity. Saren joined Sovereign long before he was implanted. There's nothing to suggest he was indoctrinated from the begining, and what he says before he kills himself suggests he chose to help them voluntarily.

#133
His Name was HYR!!

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Sisterofshane wrote...

He did this, however, because he believed that "pure" organics would have no place alongside the Reapers.  He "synthesized" himself to make himself more useful to Sovereign, and believed that any joining him would have to do the same.  The purpose of his synthesis was different, but at it's fundamentals it was exactly the same.


He not only never makes this claim, but empirical evidence would prove it wrong. A pure organic was what Sovereign needed to access the Citadel master-control and bring the return of the Reapers. Pure organics are also used to create the Reapers, as seen in ME2.

He was only "synthesized" to erase his doubts after Virmire.

#134
matt-bassist

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Xellith wrote...

"Sovreign has.. upgraded me. The relationship is symbiotic. Organic and machine intertwined. A union of flesh and steel. I am a vision of the future shepard".


SAREN = Synthesis
TIM = Control
Shepard = Destroy 

As it is written, so it shall be.

#135
Xellith

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If you collaborate with the reapers then You support them - you support Synthesis. At first he just wanted survival. But after Virmire until he put a bullet in his own head - he supported the reaper philosophy - which is harvesting and synthesis.

#136
mango smoothie

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I don't hate synthesis, but I do feel that Saren wanted something similar to it. People like to assume that when someone chooses a choice it's for only one reason. TIM wanted to control the Reapers for Human dominance, but that doesn't mean people who choose control are doing that for the same reasons. My brother absolutely hated TIM and his ideals, but he still chose Control because he felt he could use the Reapers to help rebuild the galaxy. Just because synthesis is what Saren wanted doesn't mean people choose it for the same reasons.

#137
Dormin

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Sisterofshane wrote...

Dormin wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Dormin wrote...

The idea that illusive man was indoctrinated by the Reapers all along ultimately undermines ME2....yet again.

Saren on the other hand, his goal was surviving the cycle and "Saving more lives than have ever existed" he allied with Sovereign for self-preservation, not to meld machines and organics, but to form an alliance through subservience. I can see where people are getting the idea from, but I see it as a misinterpretation. Synthesis is a consequence of allying with the Reapers.

Going back to the Illusive man for a moment, he implanted himself with Reaper tech. Does this mean he is promoting both Synthesis and Control? I think not.


He implanted himself with Reaper tech to control husks. Control husks. Of course it had nothing to do with Synthesis.


Exactly my point, he fused flesh and machine with a goal of control of the Reapers. Saren fused flesh and machine with a goal of SURVIVAL, Synthesis was simply a consequence of this. I'm not arguing Illusive mans motives, I'm arguing that people claiming that Saren was pro Synthesis might as well claim Illusive man also was.


Tehcnically, he was.

The problem here is not that Saren/Illusive Man supported synthesis (at least in a very fundamental sense).  It's the idea that the Catalyst believes that THIS is the end of all conflict between machines and organics.  We are thematically shown EXACTLY how well that assumption worked for both the Illusive Man and Saren.

What we want is any reason to believe that choosing to Synthesize the entire galaxy would lead to ANYTHING good (as the devs would suggest this to be the "best" ending, as it is the hardest to achieve and it requires the highest EMS to unlock), when all that we have been shown is tells us that synthesis is pretty much the Reaper's wet dream.


I don't think that it can be reasoned it would lead to anything good, it is a perversion of life. However the thread is about whether or not Saren supported Synthesis and I personally believe that as the ending depicts it he did not. Synthesis is bad writing for the "perfect" ending, hopefully the extended cut will do something to clarify it, because as you say it is the cause of Reaper's sticky bedcovers. :lol:

#138
Iakus

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matt-bassist wrote...

Xellith wrote...

"Sovreign has.. upgraded me. The relationship is symbiotic. Organic and machine intertwined. A union of flesh and steel. I am a vision of the future shepard".


SAREN = Synthesis
TIM = Control
Shepard = Destroy 

As it is written, so it shall be.


Sadly it's more like

SAREN=Synthesis
TIM=Control
HAN'GERREL=Destroy

Not much of a choice there.

Modifié par iakus, 26 mai 2012 - 06:45 .


#139
GreyLycanTrope

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HYR 2.0 wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

So,"Don't use sections of in game dialogue to support your argument that makes you stupid. But I'm using different sections of in game dialogue to support my argument therefore I'm right."?  :pinched: your logic hurts


Because it's no different than this:

Regurgiating random quotations without showing what it means is the reason why so many of us are here now. If you look only at a small portion of dialogue and jump to conclusions, you make invalid statements such as "Saren supported synthesis, because, he said SOMETHING about machines and organics together."

Machine and organics together could simply entail complicity. Saren joined Sovereign long before he was implanted. There's nothing to suggest he was indoctrinated from the begining, and what he says before he kills himself suggests he chose to help them voluntarily.


"No using out of context quotes from the game is the problem. Here's an out context comparison from youtube to prove my point." is what you're doing.

Also good job regurgitatiing your own argument over and over again and completely ignoring the rest of what I said in my earlier post. I'm not aruging the same point Bill Casey was, I'm simply pointing out that your cirticism is invalid since you're using pretty much the same strategy yourself.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 26 mai 2012 - 06:45 .


#140
Sisterofshane

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HYR 2.0 wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

He did this, however, because he believed that "pure" organics would have no place alongside the Reapers.  He "synthesized" himself to make himself more useful to Sovereign, and believed that any joining him would have to do the same.  The purpose of his synthesis was different, but at it's fundamentals it was exactly the same.


He not only never makes this claim, but empirical evidence would prove it wrong. A pure organic was what Sovereign needed to access the Citadel master-control and bring the return of the Reapers. Pure organics are also used to create the Reapers, as seen in ME2.

He was only "synthesized" to erase his doubts after Virmire.


He didn't need Saren to gain access to the Citadel - he needed him to find the Conduit, because he couldn't access the information on the Prothean Beacons himself.  Sovereign knew that any assault on the Citadel would be preempted by the closing of the arms, making it impossible for him to interface Citadel Control, so he had Saren find the "back door", where he could override the closing of the arms so that Sovereign could gain access and open up the relay.

Besides, we see from our very first "encounter" with Saren on Eden Prime (quotations because Shepard never actually sees him, but the player does) that he is already largely implanted with machinery. (Look here where Saren has no machine parts prior to meeting Sovereign).  He claims that everything he has done has been to make himself "more useful" to Sovereign, and even at Virmire he spouts off about how "organics" (and at this point I am assuming he is also referencing himself, because he says "we") let themselves be ruled by emotions instead of logic (hence showing why Saren possibly believes that "organics" have no place in the future he envisioned with the Reapers).  He promotes making himself more like a tool, like the Geth, as early as Virmire.  Throughout the game, he sees both the pure organics following him (such as Benezia and Shiala) as well as the pure synthetics (the Geth) as expendable, but he views himself as indispensible ("Sovereign needs me!").

After being implanted by Sovereign, he believes himself to be the"pinnacle" of evolution for organics, by becoming a symbiotic being of both Machine and Flesh (suggesting that he needs his machine parts to survive just as much as his organic parts).  He invites Shepard to "ally" with Sovereign, and experience "rebirth" (which most likely means in the same way that he did, by becoming implanted with Reaper tech and becoming part-synthetic).

The fact that the Reapers needed organics to "procreate" doesn't even factor here - Saren fully believed that the Reapers would annhilate galactic civilization - he never mentions once about being "ascended" into any Reaper form.  The first evidence we hear/see about this is in ME2.  He was doing what he thought he "must" to survive the incoming onslaught.

Modifié par Sisterofshane, 26 mai 2012 - 06:54 .


#141
His Name was HYR!!

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^^^ Sovereign DID need him. To uncover what exactly the conduit was, and to get to the master control to let the Reapers roll in (since the keepers were rewritten).

That's what "strengths of both, weaknesses of neither" was all about. He helped Sovereign, Sovereign helped him. He said "the relationship" is symbiotic. Not "the transformation."

#142
Sisterofshane

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HYR 2.0 wrote...

^^^ Sovereign DID need him. To uncover what exactly the conduit was, and to get to the master control to let the Reapers roll in (since the keepers were rewritten).

That's what "strengths of both, weaknesses of neither" was all about. He helped Sovereign, Sovereign helped him. He said "the relationship" is symbiotic. Not "the transformation."


It could be, yes, but then Saren qualifies it in the rest of the statement...

"Machine and Flesh intertwined.  The strengths of both, the weaknesses of neither.  I am the vision of the future, Shepard".

I believe this to be that Saren is talking about the relationship of the parts within his own body.

Besides, I would argue that after Saren finds the conduit, he doesn't need Saren anymore.  Any Geth could perform the exact same functions at that point as Saren himself.  But, why discard the tool before the job is done?  Sadly, it is this exact reason that Sovereign meets his downfall (as using Saren's body to fight Shepard is what led to him being "stunned", leaving himself defenseless to the Alliance Fleet attacking him).

Had Shepard not intervened, Saren would have met his fate as had the other indoctrinated agents - the reapers would have left him behind, to live out his existence alone (Vigil speculates as much happened to the others).

#143
BatmanTurian

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Dormin wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Dormin wrote...

The idea that illusive man was indoctrinated by the Reapers all along ultimately undermines ME2....yet again.

Saren on the other hand, his goal was surviving the cycle and "Saving more lives than have ever existed" he allied with Sovereign for self-preservation, not to meld machines and organics, but to form an alliance through subservience. I can see where people are getting the idea from, but I see it as a misinterpretation. Synthesis is a consequence of allying with the Reapers.

Going back to the Illusive man for a moment, he implanted himself with Reaper tech. Does this mean he is promoting both Synthesis and Control? I think not.


He implanted himself with Reaper tech to control husks. Control husks. Of course it had nothing to do with Synthesis.


Exactly my point, he fused flesh and machine with a goal of control of the Reapers. Saren fused flesh and machine with a goal of SURVIVAL, Synthesis was simply a consequence of this. I'm not arguing Illusive mans motives, I'm arguing that people claiming that Saren was acting with a goal of Synthesis might as well claim Illusive man also was.


But you just admitted TIM was fused for control and not synthesis, which is what I just said. But Saren may have believed in Synthesis even if it wasn't the same as shown at the crucible. Reapers themselves are Synthesis, but where the machine has dominated the organic and they are not equal. Arguably, Starchild's synthesis may well be the truce between organics and synthetics at face value, but it has implications that Saren was arguing for even if what he envisioned wasn't exactly what it turned out to be.

Saren was crazy anyway...

#144
BatmanTurian

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iakus wrote...

matt-bassist wrote...

Xellith wrote...

"Sovreign has.. upgraded me. The relationship is symbiotic. Organic and machine intertwined. A union of flesh and steel. I am a vision of the future shepard".


SAREN = Synthesis
TIM = Control
Shepard = Destroy 

As it is written, so it shall be.


Sadly it's more like

SAREN=Synthesis
TIM=Control
HAN'GERREL=Destroy

Not much of a choice there.


Yeah, we can all agree that Han'Gerrel is a d*****

#145
PRJimmy415

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OblivionDawn wrote...

You don't seem to understand what the Starchild really is.

At the most basic level, the Starchild is simply a means to explain the 3 ending options you have available to you.

Trying to uncover ulterior motives and hidden meanings in his words is about as logical as trying to do that with a simple sign that says "this button is red, this button is green, and this button is blue."

I cannot fully endorse this view.  The Starchild actually responds to Shepard's process of understanding the choices.  Those responses are also infused with emotion.

It's present in every choice (even in the dialogue leading up to the choices) but for convenience I will just outline the largest redflag that the Catalyst is hardly as objective or unbiased as we are lead to believe:

Synthesis overview via The Catalyst:
Catalyst: The chain reaction will combine all organic and synthetic life into a new framework. A new. . . DNA.

Shepard: I. . .Don't know. (Doubt)

Catalyst: Why not!? Synthetics are already apart of you. Can you imagine your life without them?  (Noting the doubt and interjecting reassurance.  Attempting to persuade you.)

If he's objective, why is he continuing the converation and trying to persuade Shepard that this is a viable option?  That should be irrelevant. He should just be laying out the options not trying to influence the outcome by portraying some as better than others.


As many have already pointed out, Destroy is the only option the Catalyst is actively deterring you from.  He goes out of his way to mention the innocent deaths, your own potential death, and that "the peace will not last" (As if he even knows).  He's so optimistic in every other choice, except Destroy. Again, he is NOT being objective if he tries to persuade you into choosing Synthesis while simultaneosuly detering you from choosing Destroy.

And how does The Catalyst know Peace will not last? Shepard defied all odds in achieveing peace throughout the galaxy prior to this conversation.  The Geth and Quarians are at peace, even the Krogan and Salarain/Turians are at peace. Both situations seemed hopeless throughout ME1 & ME2 yet in the end, Shepard proved everyone wrong.  The fact of the matter is that The Catalyst could not possibly know if the peace would last or not.  It is just an unecessary deterant that he is asserting as fact -Which brings this post full circle: THE CATALYST IS NOT OBJECTIVE.

#146
Major Crackhead

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"Saren would have done Synthesis" makes me like the choice even more.

Saren was just misguided, trying to do the best he could for organic life without realising he was just being used by the Reapers. Provided you persuade him at the end, he redeems himself and even shows gratitude towards Shepard, who was part of a species he hated.

Modifié par EvilCecil4th, 28 août 2012 - 01:19 .


#147
MegaSovereign

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Xellith wrote...

"Sovreign has.. upgraded me. The relationship is symbiotic. Organic and machine intertwined. A union of flesh and steel. I am a vision of the future shepard".



#148
Reptilian Rob

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MegaSovereign wrote...

Xellith wrote...

"Sovreign has.. upgraded me. The relationship is symbiotic. Organic and machine intertwined. A union of flesh and steel. I am a vision of the future shepard".



#149
MegaSovereign

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I just realized this thread is 3 months old..

#150
Conniving_Eagle

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Funny then that some Synthesis supporters quote Saren.