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[DirtyPhoenix]

MegaSovereign wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

You're interpreting it wrong.

The next line after that quote is "I am a vision of the future Shepard. The evolution of all organic life. This is our destiny."

Definitely doesn't sound like he's talking about dating the Reapers. He's talking about synthesis.

Let me repeat myself for the third time now....

The whole conversation that comes after Saren's metaphors and visions of the future - the one where he responds to Shepard's paragon/renegade responses and then Charm/Intimidate - the one, in, the, OP.... - is where he states his very black-and-white agenda.

That agenda is simply: surrender, or die.

Yea his agenda is submission.

It doesn't change the fact that Saren approved of some sort of organic/synthetic fusion. The line I quoted doesn't magically disappear just because you choose to ignore the fact that it's there.

Doesn't TIM also support "improving" organics by implanting them with reaper tech? On Mars he says his soldiers are being "improved" On Cronos station Kai Leng says we evolve or we die, On the citadel when you use the renegade path he retorts: I'm the savior of humanity, the pinnacle of our species, or something like that. Very similar to what Saren blurts out I'd say.

The Reapers considered themselves the pinnacle of evolution, so maybe their thought processes filtered down into those they indoctrinated. Saren was very much a Pro-Turian like TIM was a Pro-Human before they were indoctrinated.

[His Name was HYR!!]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Yea his agenda was submission.

It doesn't change the fact that Saren approved of some sort of organic/synthetic fusion. The line I quoted doesn't magically disappear just because you choose to ignore the fact that it's there.

Do you know what a metaphor is?

No, the line doesn't magically disappear. It just doesn't mean what it literally says. Hence the fact it is a metaphor.

But you need context to understand that simple fact.

This is a lesson from, what, third grade composition? I remember exactly how my teacher explained it to us... saying "he has a heart of gold " doesn't mean he possesses an organ made from precious metal.

It's no different here when Saren, a character who's been described as "charismatic and compelling" previously, is trying to sell you the idea of joining the Reapers.

At least, it's much more compelling for some folks then screaming "JOIN NAO!" like an idiot.

If Saren is such a poster-boy for synthesis, why is his support limited to one line, when TIM's support of Control goes the length of an entire game? (The answer is: because he does not foreshadow Synthesis as we know it).

[RenegonSQ]

pirate1802 wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

You're interpreting it wrong.

The next line after that quote is "I am a vision of the future Shepard. The evolution of all organic life. This is our destiny."

Definitely doesn't sound like he's talking about dating the Reapers. He's talking about synthesis.

Let me repeat myself for the third time now....

The whole conversation that comes after Saren's metaphors and visions of the future - the one where he responds to Shepard's paragon/renegade responses and then Charm/Intimidate - the one, in, the, OP.... - is where he states his very black-and-white agenda.

That agenda is simply: surrender, or die.

Yea his agenda is submission.

It doesn't change the fact that Saren approved of some sort of organic/synthetic fusion. The line I quoted doesn't magically disappear just because you choose to ignore the fact that it's there.

Doesn't TIM also support "improving" organics by implanting them with reaper tech? On Mars he says his soldiers are being "improved" On Cronos station Kai Leng says we evolve or we die, On the citadel when you use the renegade path he retorts: I'm the savior of humanity, the pinnacle of our species, or something like that. Very similar to what Saren blurts out I'd say.

The Reapers considered themselves the pinnacle of evolution, so maybe their thought processes filtered down into those they indoctrinated. Saren was very much a Pro-Turian like TIM was a Pro-Human before they were indoctrinated.

Annnnnnnnnnnd welcome to the Indoctrination Theory, hosted by Bioware's Silence

[Bill Casey]

If Saren is such a poster-boy for synthesis, why is his support limited to one line,

Saren: "I'm forging an alliance between us and the Reapers. Between organics and machines. And in doing so, I will save more lives than have ever existed."

Saren: "You've survived our encounter on Virmire, but I've changed since then. Improved. Sovereign has upgraded me."

Saren: "Join Sovereign and experience a true rebirth."

Saren: "If we work with the Reapers, if we prove ourselves useful, think how many lives could be spared."

Modifié par Bill Casey, 04 septembre 2012 - 05:21 .

[MegaSovereign]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Yea his agenda was submission.

It doesn't change the fact that Saren approved of some sort of organic/synthetic fusion. The line I quoted doesn't magically disappear just because you choose to ignore the fact that it's there.

Do you know what a metaphor is?

No, the line doesn't magically disappear. It just doesn't mean what it literally says. Hence the fact it is a metaphor.

But you need context to understand that simple fact.

This is a lesson from, what, third grade composition? I remember exactly how my teacher explained it to us... saying "he has a heart of gold " doesn't mean he possesses an organ made from precious metal.

It's no different here when Saren, a character who's been described as "charismatic and compelling" previously, is trying to sell you the idea of joining the Reapers.

At least, it's much more compelling for some folks then screaming "JOIN NAO!" like an idiot.

If Saren is such a poster-boy for synthesis, why is his support limited to one line, when TIM's support of Control goes the length of an entire game? (The answer is: because he does not foreshadow Synthesis as we know it).

I'd honestly argue that both TIM and Saren favor some sort of organic/synthetic fusion. TIM specifically wanted to control the Reapers in order to "advance" humanity. AKA Integration with synthetic technology.

Also, Saren and TIM gladly accept their implants as upgrades. I don't see why they wouldn't support Synthesis.

[Bill Casey]

Also Desolas Arterius (Indoctrinated) from Mass Effect Evolution...


Desolas Arterius: I have a monolith too – And like his, mine is an evolution accelerator.

Desolas Arterius: Imagine a legion of turians – evolved to a state of ultimate physical perfection! Never resting – Never yielding!

Desolas Arterius: Nonsense! We’re pacifying the Meta-Turians. Recall the forces outside. I just need to… adjust the experiment.

Desolas Arterius: And that’s why I’m going to all of this trouble to make them associate me with it. I’m the protector. I’m giving it a place of respect. Someplace where I can figure out how to make it control them!


Back when Saren and TIM thought he was nuts...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 04 septembre 2012 - 05:26 .

[RadicalDisconnect]

Cherry-picking evidence to draw parallels without looking at the context. Quite the association fallacy.

[Bill Casey]

Association fallacy my ass...

[DirtyPhoenix]

MegaSovereign wrote...

I'd honestly argue that both TIM and Saren favor some sort of organic/synthetic fusion. TIM specifically wanted to control the Reapers in order to "advance" humanity. AKA Integration with synthetic technology.

Also, Saren and TIM gladly accept their implants as upgrades. I don't see why they wouldn't support Synthesis.

I can agree with that. As I said, TIM's renegade dying oent reminded me alot of Saren.

[RadicalDisconnect]

Bill Casey wrote...

Association fallacy my ass...

What, should I be more subtle and call it guilt by association? It'll do you good if you can explain why it isn't.

[Bill Casey]

It's what they were brainwashed into believing by the Reapers...

[Saren100]

Saren was upgraded with new parts in probably the most traditional sense for sci fi

Synthesis somehow merges synthetic and organic dna

It is totally different

Maybe Saren was under the impression everyone would eventually become like the collectors... indoctrinated to the extreme and kept functioning through reaper tech.