179 réponses à ce sujet

[T0paze]

Does anyone else here think that Riordan was actually doing a great favor to the PC and Alistair by proposing that Loghain should undergo the Joining? I mean, he knew all along that any Grey Warden who kills the Archdemon must die. He did want to do it himself, but he it was entirely possible that he would've failed (just like it happened). So, if anything should go awry, Loghain would be in a much better position to die with the Archdemon. He's already quite old, much older than you and Alistair. He has a lot to atone for and will need to redeem himself, so this could be possibly the best way for him to go, considering what he has done. Alistair and the PC, on the contrary, are young and have a whole life ahead of them. Alistair could be King and the PC could do a lot for the Grey Wardens. So, this would be a win-win situation. Just imagine what would happen in the game if Alistair didn't leave when Loghain joined the party (Riordan had no way of knowing that Alistair would, actually). I think pretty much everyone would say something like "Loghain, it was nice knowing you, now go die like a hero" and everyone would be happy, including Loghain himself.

Modifié par T0paze, 10 décembre 2009 - 05:53 .

[The Angry One]

Maybe, it's a shame Riordan is undermined by the fact that he's an idiot.

I mean if that was his intention why not explain it to Alistair? Don't say he assumed he knew cause that just makes him look dumber; why would the two junior members of the order know the Warden's deepest darkest secret?

[Asante81]

Well, not enough place in party camp for one more, so one has to leave! *laughs*

But yeah... this was one of the situations where I would have loved to have the answering option of: "Other: enter your own text" to explain some things...

[Adria Teksuni]

The Angry One wrote...

Maybe, it's a shame Riordan is undermined by the fact that he's an idiot.
I mean if that was his intention why not explain it to Alistair? Don't say he assumed he knew cause that just makes him look dumber; why would the two junior members of the order know the Warden's deepest darkest secret?

I get that he couldn't exactly announce it in the Landsmeet, not everyone there knew the Warden Secret Handshake or had the Secret Gray Warden Decoder Ring.  However, a brief pull aside and some whispering could have accomplished the same thing.

"Why do I want to do zis?  I want to have Loghead keel ze Archdemon and zo, die in ze process."

Short, simple, and to the point.  Would have saved much aggravation. 

[Statulos]

For the same part, Morrigan could have told you about that since she knew in advance but well, the reason for her not doing it is obvious: for the shake of ****ing with you.

[T0paze]

It's true, but it could simply an epiphany, too. Just a spontaneous thought when Riordan saw that Loghain was about to die at the hands of either you or Alistair. He might not have that plan before the Landsmeet - indeed, it would be very hard to predict how the things would turn out at the Landsmeet in advance.

Modifié par T0paze, 10 décembre 2009 - 06:04 .

[Aedan_Cousland]

I think Riordan is just trying to maximize the chances of taking down the archdemon, and he doesn't care which of the four Wardens strikes the final blow. If Loghain survives the joining, he'd have four people capable of slaying the archdemon including himself. Of course, his plan doesn't quite work out that way if implemented, since Alistair decides to leave if you recruit Loghain.

[Statulos]

And well, if you perform the ritual, the possibility of telling Riordan something like "heya buddy, don´t do stupid things, taking down the rotten lizard is more than enough to take it out."

[T0paze]

Er... I really don't think Riordan would appreciate that. That line of reasoning would befit my PC who, being an archmage and all, would never pass up an opportunity to bring a pure Old God into existence (remember their role in the evolution of magic), but it would hardly be appropriate for an old school Grey Warden.

Modifié par T0paze, 10 décembre 2009 - 06:13 .

[ChemicalGreen]

I'm not saying Riordan was calculating enough to cold-bloodedly orchestrate Loghain's joining just to have a suitable sacrificial lamb for Archdemon, even though Loghain pretty much accuses the PC and Riordan having planned it from the start. He might have however figured it would be perfect opportunity for Loghain to redeem himself.



But really.... you can question Riordan in Eamon's library after you've freed him. He's perfectly willing to explain about the Grey Wardens to you. And Alistair is _right there_ so he could have spilled the beans there and then. But he doesn't. So he gets the dunce cap, even though I do find his accent hawt.

[David Gaider]

I do so love it when players are willfully ignorant, and justify that by declaring that everyone else in the story is clearly stupid. It's an interesting phenomenon.

[Varenus Luckmann]

David Gaider wrote...

I do so love it when players are willfully ignorant, and justify that by declaring that everyone else in the story is clearly stupid. It's an interesting phenomenon.

Hit/Miss.

[darkshadow136]

Riordan could have been a real cool character. But the way they wrote him in he's a lame idiot. Alister got it wright when he asked him if he was crazy for even thinking of making Loghain a warden. For one he tortured Riordan lol. Out of the 6 times I've went through the game I only sparred Loghain once for the credit of it. Every other time it was off with his traitorous head.



Loghain is a good warrior don't get me wrong. But losing Alister to have Loghain is not a fair trade.

[lv12medic]

darkshadow136 wrote...

Riordan could have been a real cool character. But the way they wrote him in he's a lame idiot. Alister got it wright when he asked him if he was crazy for even thinking of making Loghain a warden. For one he tortured Riordan lol.

I don't know... Grey Warden's tend to do odd things, especially when it comes to recruiting members.  From The Calling, Genevieve (sp?) recruited Duncan even though he ended up killing someone she loved. 
I just think the Grey Warden's need to learn to not have everyone on the front lines minus the two rookies.  Or they need to put together a Grey Wardens for Dummies guide to the new people so they aren't blind-sided when all the senior members get wasted.

[Zan Mura]

How is Riordan an idiot for acting like a Grey Warden should? Or how are you smarter for being all emotional about it when the price of said emotions can be the fate of the whole world. This is the same as the event (which I won't spoil, but you'll know if you know it) in Mass Effect. You can dance around the issue all you want, but in the end from the viewpoint of which is MOST likely to result in victory, and considering the loss is not an option as it means the death of all living things everywhere, the issue is simple: Loghain is loyal to Ferelden, he's an extremely powerful warrior and akin to a Legend as a General. At worst, the Joining would kill him which is no different from executing him then and there in the Landsmeet. And anything beyond that is a bonus.

Even compared to Alistair, Loghains skills and other attributes would benefit the situation a lot more than Alistairs'.

That said, I like Alistair as a character. He's helluva good company to have along, and I damn love his sense of humour. But sentimentalities aside, Loghain is much too powerful a tool to be wasted on a simple execution in a situation like that. As said, the Grey Wardens do WHAT EVER it takes to protect Ferelden. Slaughtering invaluable assets for the sake of convenience goes against everything that philosophy stands for.

[taxtell]

darkshadow136 wrote...

Riordan could have been a real cool character. But the way they wrote him in he's a lame idiot. Alister got it wright when he asked him if he was crazy for even thinking of making Loghain a warden. For one he tortured Riordan lol. Out of the 6 times I've went through the game I only sparred Loghain once for the credit of it. Every other time it was off with his traitorous head.

Loghain is a good warrior don't get me wrong. But losing Alister to have Loghain is not a fair trade.

...

Also, spellchecker is your friend.  I bet Riordan would have been smart enough to use one!

[Kerilus]

Yes...I do find his capture quite...pathetic. It shows his ignorance of the situation besides the Blight and this ignorance once again reveals itself in the Landsmeet. Maybe "disregard" would be a better way to put it?

Modifié par Kerilus, 10 décembre 2009 - 07:32 .

[Leftnt Sharpe]

Statulos wrote...

For the same part, Morrigan could have told you about that since she knew in advance but well, the reason for her not doing it is obvious: for the shake of ****ing with you.

Also Morrigan likes to do things for dramatic effect sometimes.

[fdgarcia]

It's about The Blight - not Alistair's childish yearning for revenge, and not whether or not Loghain deserves death (he probably does, but who has the right to make that call?).



Riordan himself states that the Gray Wardens take anyone, from any background, no matter their past crimes. Being in the Gray Wardens is a death sentence whether or not you end up slaying an Arch Demon. Joining the order offers a chance to put your remaining years to good use.



I don't think Riordan is doing the PC a favor. I think he was being a Gray Warden. His character, for the brief time you can interact with him, is an interesting insight into the Wardens. For the entire game you have but one Warden you regularly interact with, and he (Alistair) is a junior member who's hardly found his place in the order yet. Duncan is with you only briefly, and perhaps most telling in that time is his execution of Ser Jory. The Blight is serious business, trumping personal injuries, political considerations, family, friends, etc. Riordan brings that perspective to the table at a time when the PC might need a reality check.



I certainly don't think that he wanted to recruit Loghain for the purpose of having him land the killing blow. That he could be so calculating about something fundamental to their order is not an idea that I find compelling. Seniority is the first parameter to consider, and he makes that clear. After that, it's an open discussion between those Wardens who will take the field. I imagine that he doesn't particularly care who gets the job done if he fails, so long as it is done.



The ultimate idiot in this situation is Alistair. I love the guy, but how can he possibly abandon his comrades for this? Abandon his contribution to ending The Blight? It doesn't matter how close his connection has become to the PC. It doesn't matter how much of an effort you've made to allow him to open up to you, to nurture the memory of Duncan. If he cared about Duncan and the other Wardens, why betray their cause when he is needed most?

[th3warr1or]

ChemicalGreen wrote...
even though Loghain pretty much accuses the PC and Riordan having planned it from the start.

Wtf? When did he?

In my game Loghain was like "you've got a long life ahead of you. I have much to atone for.." and basically went out very heroically.

[Skellimancer]

David Gaider wrote...

I do so love it when players are willfully ignorant, and justify that by declaring that everyone else in the story is clearly stupid. It's an interesting phenomenon.

We know everything! :whistle:i blame parts of the story that should never be revealed.. cutscenes showing what the enemy is planning, etc. we just end up thinking outside of the game. NO ALEESTAIR U CANT KILLZ LOGHAIN WE NEED TO USE HIM TE KILLZ ARCHDEMOMAN.

That bastard Alistair is responsible for my warriors death all because he had to kill Loghain!!!111oneone!!  NOT THIS TIME, ALISTAIR!

NOT
THIS
TIME!

[ChemicalGreen]

Or he could have simply assumed that as Duncan spent six months with Alistair that the whole birds and bees (or wardens and archdemons, in this case) discussion had been covered, only realize during Landsmeet that this was not so.



That said, he still always reminds me of any special forces movie I ever saw. You know the ones, where the enemy is in fact protagonists acquintances and the whole thing could have been nipped in the bud if only the military contact had revealed key information early on. "classified information, need to know basis only". Once the make interactive TVs where I can slap characters for being dummies, I shall have my retribution.

[HarlequinDream]

My PC's primary reason for continually choosing to execute Loghain is (and the same one keeps cropping up in PC s) that he quit the field once, leaving Gray Wardens, an army, and the king to die. I have yet to have a character willing to risk having him at their back.

[Adria Teksuni]

Sorry, David, but I do think this was a bit awkwardly handled.

[ChemicalGreen]

th3warr1or wrote...

ChemicalGreen wrote...
even though Loghain pretty much accuses the PC and Riordan having planned it from the start.

Wtf? When did he?

In my game Loghain was like "you've got a long life ahead of you. I have much to atone for.." and basically went out very heroically.

in  my game, I had not bothered to befriend Loghain overly much, just gave him any maps I had accidentally picked up prior that point. To me he said something along the lines of "This is what you wanted me here for, isn't it?" when the dialogue scene pops up after the battle with Archdemon.