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[nuculerman]

Kerilus wrote...

Yes...I do find his capture quite...pathetic. It shows his ignorance of the situation besides the Blight and this ignorance once again reveals itself in the Landsmeet. Maybe "disregard" would be a better way to put it?

How was it ignorant?  Loghain was Maric's right hand man and a national hero.  Riordan probably would have sympathized with him if Loghain had simply retreated because he saw the final head count of darkspawn and realized they didn't stand a chance.  He knew it was a risk, which is why the Grey Wardens decided to just send one person.  If Loghain was a traitor, one Warden would die.  If Loghain was just a coward or tactician, the Grey Wardens could come in and help save the day.

As for the joining, it only makes sense.  Riordan wanted to maximize the chance the Archdemon was slain.  That's all he cares about.  He's a Grey Warden.  And currently, their chances of success were looking pretty crappy.  There were only three of them which means at least one of them had to survive the overwhelming odds of even getting to the archdemon alive and then survive the overwhelming odds of that encounter.  Loghain had proven himself a very skilled warrior and had been known to be a brilliant tactician.  He was useful.  End of story.  He was much more useful alive than dead.  

It would be an insult to Duncan's memory to fail at killing the archdemon just to exact the proper revenge on Loghain.  I mean honestly, Allistair is a whining little fool.  I wanted the dialogue option: "don't be a moron.  If you loved Duncan think of what he'd do in this situation."  Duncan would use skill where there was skill to be had.  I mean, if you need proof, play an elf or dwarf origin and treat him like crap because he's a human.  In the end he doesn't care one lick because you're skilled and he's in need of skilled help.  My city elf male hero worshipped Duncan because he gave him the chance to exact his revenge on Vaugn, then saved him from the fate any elf would reasonably expect from doing so.  So I rp him throughout the whole game with "what would Duncan do" constantly on his mind.  And I would wager Duncan would save Zevran, Duncan would accept Morrigan's help, and Duncan would have let Loghain go through with the joining.  

[izmirtheastarach]

And no one else has to die. Isn't that a better use for his death then splattering his own daughter with his blood in front of the landsmeet? I found the killing of Loghain to be barbaric, and while it is in keeping with typical Fereldan justice, I really hated doing it. On my first playthrough, I was very conflicted about killing him, and on my second I spared him and let him redeem himself.

I also felt, in a broader sense, that is was much better for Fereldan to have the hero of the Dane give his life for his nation, rather then be butchered by the Grey Wardens purely out of spite.

Modifié par izmirtheastarach, 10 décembre 2009 - 07:54 .

[TheLadyJess]

Adria Teksuni wrote...

"Why do I want to do zis?  I want to have Loghead keel ze Archdemon and zo, die in ze process."

Short, simple, and to the point.  Would have saved much aggravation. 

Loghead...Oh my Grey Warden that's funny!  He definitely has something in his head other than a brain that's for sure!

[Adria Teksuni]

My first playthrough, I thought it made perfect sense in a "what was best for Ferelden" type of way to not kill him and make him a Warden. Batcrap insane or not, he is tactically intelligent and has extensive combat experience. Besides, (although as a player I knew he'd survive) there was always the chance he'd die during the Joining and there was your "justice".

The entire game you're being told about decisions you may not like but had to make. Decisions that were for the best and had to be that way. Alistair and Wynne both have several interesting dialogues regarding this subject.

The fact that Alistair, who'd been so duty and the greater good and WWDD driven throughout the game, totally freaked out and abandoned EVERYTHING in what boiled down to a temper tantrum really, really bothered me.

Heh, as for Loghead, it popped out while I was writing one of the Very Secret Diaries and I adopted it. 

Modifié par Adria Teksuni, 10 décembre 2009 - 07:56 .

[nuculerman]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

And no one else has to die. Isn't that a better use for his death then splattering his own daughter with his blood in front of the landsmeet? I found the killing of Loghain to be barbaric, and while it is in keeping with typical Fereldan justice, I really hated doing it. On my first playthrough, I was very conflicted about killing him, and on my second I spared him and let him redeem himself.

I found it hard not to kill him as a human noble (sided with Howe) and as a city elf (sold my people to slavery).  Every other origin I play I typically spare him for that reason.  Also because it seems like he wakes up from a really bad dream when you beat him and comes to his senses.  Anora has her father back for a whole minute before you slit his jugular and spatter his blood all over her.

[izmirtheastarach]

I was very moved when I killed him. I felt like I had to, because I couldn't get Alistair to be king otherwise. Of course, now I know you can, but I didn't then. It also dictated my need to sacrifice myself in the end, because I wanted Alistair to be king.



In the final estimation though, I really felt that what was best for Fereldan was to let him be redeemed.

[HarlequinDream]

nuculerman wrote...

izmirtheastarach wrote...

And no one else has to die. Isn't that a better use for his death then splattering his own daughter with his blood in front of the landsmeet? I found the killing of Loghain to be barbaric, and while it is in keeping with typical Fereldan justice, I really hated doing it. On my first playthrough, I was very conflicted about killing him, and on my second I spared him and let him redeem himself.

I found it hard not to kill him as a human noble (sided with Howe) and as a city elf (sold my people to slavery).  Every other origin I play I typically spare him for that reason.  Also because it seems like he wakes up from a really bad dream when you beat him and comes to his senses.  Anora has her father back for a whole minute before you slit his jugular and spatter his blood all over her.

I found it hard in the mage origin too. He pretty much told Uldred "Yeah, stage a coup of the tower, right behind you," which led to the mess you have to clean up.

[Kerilus]

For his capture I meant how he's ignorant of what Loghain has done. All Grey Warden dead+Grey warden declared traitors...hmm, funny coincidence.

The GW does come in and save the day, you're at least right on this, even the GW being just PC and Alistair.

I know why Riordan wants to recruite Loghain, that's why I said he's ignorant of the situation BESIDES the Blight. Story-wise I might agree Loghain's talent as a general could be a great help to the war, but you should also realise that one bad general is better than two good ones. After much chaos Ferelden needs absolute unity and Loghain's death serves as a strong and undenible message to all of Ferelden who is in charge.

Edited: due to misreading

nuculerman wrote...

Kerilus wrote...

Yes...I do find his capture quite...pathetic. It shows his ignorance of the situation besides the Blight and this ignorance once again reveals itself in the Landsmeet. Maybe "disregard" would be a better way to put it?

How was it ignorant?  Loghain was Maric's right hand man and a national hero.  Riordan probably would have sympathized with him if Loghain had simply retreated because he saw the final head count of darkspawn and realized they didn't stand a chance.  He knew it was a risk, which is why the Grey Wardens decided to just send one person.  If Loghain was a traitor, one Warden would die.  If Loghain was just a coward or tactician, the Grey Wardens could come in and help save the day.

As for the joining, it only makes sense.  Riordan wanted to maximize the chance the Archdemon was slain.  That's all he cares about.  He's a Grey Warden.  And currently, their chances of success were looking pretty crappy.  There were only three of them which means at least one of them had to survive the overwhelming odds of even getting to the archdemon alive and then survive the overwhelming odds of that encounter.  Loghain had proven himself a very skilled warrior and had been known to be a brilliant tactician.  He was useful.  End of story.  He was much more useful alive than dead.  

It would be an insult to Duncan's memory to fail at killing the archdemon just to exact the proper revenge on Loghain.  I mean honestly, Allistair is a whining little fool.  I wanted the dialogue option: "don't be a moron.  If you loved Duncan think of what he'd do in this situation."  Duncan would use skill where there was skill to be had.  I mean, if you need proof, play an elf or dwarf origin and treat him like crap because he's a human.  In the end he doesn't care one lick because you're skilled and he's in need of skilled help.  My city elf male hero worshipped Duncan because he gave him the chance to exact his revenge on Vaugn, then saved him from the fate any elf would reasonably expect from doing so.  So I rp him throughout the whole game with "what would Duncan do" constantly on his mind.  And I would wager Duncan would save Zevran, Duncan would accept Morrigan's help, and Duncan would have let Loghain go through with the joining.  

Modifié par Kerilus, 10 décembre 2009 - 08:17 .

[izmirtheastarach]

The thing I find most interesting about this is how many players seem to be unable to transition their characters from their origins into their new life as Grey Wardens. The decisions they make in the game seem to be all about revenge for the hurts they have suffered, rather then what a Grey Warden might actually do. A true Grey Warden wouldn't care about revenge, and so would spare Loghain simply because more Wardens are need for the final battle.



I suppose though, based on what I myself have said, my decision was based on what I felt was best for the kingdom. This is consistent with the human noble origin I most often play. It really is part of the genius of the game, I think.

[HarlequinDream]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

The thing I find most interesting about this is how many players seem to be unable to transition their characters from their origins into their new life as Grey Wardens. The decisions they make in the game seem to be all about revenge for the hurts they have suffered, rather then what a Grey Warden might actually do. A true Grey Warden wouldn't care about revenge, and so would spare Loghain simply because more Wardens are need for the final battle.

I suppose though, based on what I myself have said, my decision was based on what I felt was best for the kingdom. This is consistent with the human noble origin I most often play. It really is part of the genius of the game, I think.

I think part of the reason I never feel like my PC's origin and being a Gray Warden cause a disconnect to the past life is because you're a Gray Warden for a relatively short time. It's not like you drink the darkspawn blood and forget who you were. Add to that how you see the effects of what Loghain's done to your home/people/etc. when you haven't been away from that very long, and I think it's reasonable to assume that at least some PCs would, in fact, focus a great deal on who they used to be. Especially since very few of them have the choice of being a Gray Warden.

[Adria Teksuni]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

The thing I find most interesting about this is how many players seem to be unable to transition their characters from their origins into their new life as Grey Wardens. The decisions they make in the game seem to be all about revenge for the hurts they have suffered, rather then what a Grey Warden might actually do. A true Grey Warden wouldn't care about revenge, and so would spare Loghain simply because more Wardens are need for the final battle.

I suppose though, based on what I myself have said, my decision was based on what I felt was best for the kingdom. This is consistent with the human noble origin I most often play. It really is part of the genius of the game, I think.

*golf clap*  I like the cut of your jib, sir.

[izmirtheastarach]

The fact that people have such strong opinions on this is a testament to what Bioware has created here.

Modifié par izmirtheastarach, 10 décembre 2009 - 08:19 .

[nuculerman]

Kerilus wrote...

I know why Riordan wants to recruite Loghain, that's why I said he's ignorant of the situation BESIDES the Blight. Story-wise I might agree Loghain's talent as a general could be a great help to the war, but you should also realise that one bad general is better than two good ones. After much chaos Ferelden needs absolute unity and Loghain's death serves as a strong and undenible message to all of Ferelden who is in charge.

There IS ONLY THE BLIGHT.  That's it.  Nothing else matters.  The vast majority of your army is made up of people who couldn't care a flying f*** about unity.  The vast majority of the "King's men" were slain in Ostagar.  Redcliffe is loyal to Arl Eamon and you without question.  Loghain's "army" will most likely be more effective under his continued leadership.

Riordin isn't ignorant, he just knows what is important.  What's important is killing the archdemon.  Everything else is secondary.  The darkspawn have nearly unlimited numbers, but without an archdemon at their helm they aren't organized enough to take over Thedas.  Currently they're just a wandering swarm.  If they win this battle they are a heavily fortified enemy.  Orlais and the rest of the Grey Wardens don't stand much chance.  He says this.

He is a Grey Warden.  It is his duty and his calling to end the Blight by helping to kill the archdemon.  That's all that matters to him and its all that should matter.  His decisions should be answers to the question "how do I best increase my chances of killing the archdemon."  The obvious answer is sparing Loghain and giving them one more chance at it.    Anything less makes him a bad soldier.

[thegreateski]

Riordan is an idiot for not taking 3 mins to explain to me and Alistair the benefits of having Loghain alive.

[izmirtheastarach]

This is exactly what I was talking about. The game is about being a Grey Warden. Part of being one is leaving your old life behind, to go and fight the blight. That is supposed to be your on and only motivation.

[izmirtheastarach]

thegreateski wrote...

Riordan is an idiot for not taking 3 mins to explain to me and Alistair the benefits of having Loghain alive.

What is difficult to undestand here? He does explain it. There will be ONE MORE Grey Warden. It is as simple as that. More are needed. Let's make him one, instead of wasting his life in a pointless display for revenge.

Either you agree with him, or you don't. If you don't, then kill him. It seems a little silly to run around calling fictional characters idiots. He's not an idiot. You simply disagree with the decsision David Gaider and the rest of Bioware made in constructing their story. You want more exposition. Fine. That is your perogative.

Modifié par izmirtheastarach, 10 décembre 2009 - 08:29 .

[Mnemnosyne]

Funny, in my second playthrough I had gotten Alistair and Anora to agree to marry, and then went to the Landsmeet and spared Loghain.  When Alistair threw a fit about it and said he was leaving and quitting the Grey Wardens because of it, I just told Anora to rule alone, and then fully supported her decision to execute Alistair.  I like to think Duncan would have agreed with this decision.  After all, he killed Jory for trying to back out on the Wardens, and Alistair is doing it in a far, far worse moment.  I'm a little dissapointed that this doesn't come up at all when Alistair is throwing his fit.

As to the original topic, I don't think Riordan had anything like that in mind.  I think he had what many people have noted in mind: There are three Grey Wardens in Ferelden and should all three die before the Archdemon does, then no one can kill it until the reinforcements from Orlais arrive.  In other words, Ferelden is basically lost if all three of us die.  Increasing the number of Wardens by 33% of the current numbers means that much more chance of actually killing the Archdemon.

Alistair comes out of that terribly badly too.  Putting his sense of vengeance above everything else.  Everything.  He wants Loghain dead and if he doesn't get his way then he's willing to abandon his friends and the country and everyone to the Blight, letting everyone die in the event that you turned out to have really needed his help in order to win.

[HarlequinDream]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

This is exactly what I was talking about. The game is about being a Grey Warden. Part of being one is leaving your old life behind, to go and fight the blight. That is supposed to be your on and only motivation.

Ideally, yes. Your one and only motivation should be the to fight the Blight. But you are also human (or a dwarf or elf) and have emotions, have ties to your old life. You are brought into the Order and then promptly left on your own with only another junior member to help you along.  Who also has not entirely left behind his old life.

I have a hard time thinking of the kind of character that could just forget everything that they were. In time, yeah. If Duncan had been around to teach you, the other Gray Wardens had been there to provide a new connection, you could focus on only the Blight, but it would still take awhile for you to think of yourself as a Gray Warden only rather than, say "a city elf who was conscripted into the Gray Wardens."

[Skellimancer]

Koyasha wrote...

Funny, in my second playthrough I had gotten Alistair and Anora to agree to marry, and then went to the Landsmeet and spared Loghain.  When Alistair threw a fit about it and said he was leaving and quitting the Grey Wardens because of it, I just told Anora to rule alone, and then fully supported her decision to execute Alistair.  I like to think Duncan would have agreed with this decision.  After all, he killed Jory for trying to back out on the Wardens, and Alistair is doing it in a far, far worse moment.  I'm a little dissapointed that this doesn't come up at all when Alistair is throwing his fit.

As to the original topic, I don't think Riordan had anything like that in mind.  I think he had what many people have noted in mind: There are three Grey Wardens in Ferelden and should all three die before the Archdemon does, then no one can kill it until the reinforcements from Orlais arrive.  In other words, Ferelden is basically lost if all three of us die.  Increasing the number of Wardens by 33% of the current numbers means that much more chance of actually killing the Archdemon.

Alistair comes out of that terribly badly too.  Putting his sense of vengeance above everything else.  Everything.  He wants Loghain dead and if he doesn't get his way then he's willing to abandon his friends and the country and everyone to the Blight, letting everyone die in the event that you turned out to have really needed his help in order to win.

I like your style

[tmp7704]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

The thing I find most interesting about this is how many players seem to be unable to transition their characters from their origins into their new life as Grey Wardens. The decisions they make in the game seem to be all about revenge for the hurts they have suffered, rather then what a Grey Warden might actually do. A true Grey Warden wouldn't care about revenge, and so would spare Loghain simply because more Wardens are need for the final battle.

The "true Grey Warden" does whatever they find necessary to stop the Blight and remains vigilant when the Blight is over. That's about it. Nowhere it's said they are not allowed to maintain their own personal feelings and bias.

The necessity (or lack thereof) to have Loghain out of all people become Grey Warden has been discussed in quite a few threads. In the end it boils down to game not providing you with any other candidate. Without this particular limitation the "true Grey Warden" might as well be inclined to ignore Loghain entirely based on his track record and recruit other, more trustworthy person(s) instead. If it's all about having more of willing warm bodies to throw at the archdemon to improve your odds.

[izmirtheastarach]

Koyasha wrote...

Funny, in my second playthrough I
had gotten Alistair and Anora to agree to marry, and then went to the
Landsmeet and spared Loghain.  When Alistair threw a fit about it and
said he was leaving and quitting the Grey Wardens because of it, I just
told Anora to rule alone, and then fully supported her decision to
execute Alistair.  I like to think Duncan would have agreed with this
decision.  After all, he killed Jory for trying to back out on the
Wardens, and Alistair is doing it in a far, far worse moment.  I'm a
little dissapointed that this doesn't come up at all when Alistair is
throwing his fit.

As to the original topic, I don't think
Riordan had anything like that in mind.  I think he had what many
people have noted in mind: There are three Grey Wardens in Ferelden and
should all three die before the Archdemon does, then no one can
kill it until the reinforcements from Orlais arrive.  In other words,
Ferelden is basically lost if all three of us die.  Increasing the
number of Wardens by 33% of the current numbers means that much more
chance of actually killing the Archdemon.

Alistair comes out of
that terribly badly too.  Putting his sense of vengeance above
everything else.  Everything.  He wants Loghain dead and if he doesn't
get his way then he's willing to abandon his friends and the country
and everyone to the Blight, letting everyone die in the event that you
turned out to have really needed his help in order to win.

As Alistair's friend and companion, I felt sort of like a steward of the kingdom. Just as you have to toughen him up after his meeting with Goldanna, you have to toughen him up at the landsmeet as well. At least, that's how I felt. So I made him marry Anora anyways, and they usher in a golden age. Alistair has to leave the Grey Wardens to become king anyways.

Modifié par izmirtheastarach, 10 décembre 2009 - 08:33 .

[Ulicus]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

The thing I find most interesting about this is how many players seem to be unable to transition their characters from their origins into their new life as Grey Wardens. The decisions they make in the game seem to be all about revenge for the hurts they have suffered, rather then what a Grey Warden might actually do. A true Grey Warden wouldn't care about revenge, and so would spare Loghain simply because more Wardens are need for the final battle.

I suppose though, based on what I myself have said, my decision was based on what I felt was best for the kingdom. This is consistent with the human noble origin I most often play. It really is part of the genius of the game, I think.

Unable? Whether or not a character of mine spares Loghain is a choice I make for my character based on what I think the character would do, not what a perfect Grey Warden would do.

Assuming I get to make any choice at all. I quite like having Alistair and Loghain duel -- and then the subject of his joining the Wardens never even comes up. It makes it much easier.

[Kepha]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

The thing I find most interesting about this is how many players seem to be unable to transition their characters from their origins into their new life as Grey Wardens. The decisions they make in the game seem to be all about revenge for the hurts they have suffered, rather then what a Grey Warden might actually do. A true Grey Warden wouldn't care about revenge, and so would spare Loghain simply because more Wardens are need for the final battle.

I suppose though, based on what I myself have said, my decision was based on what I felt was best for the kingdom. This is consistent with the human noble origin I most often play. It really is part of the genius of the game, I think.

The game has sort of forced this situation by making most of the origins about a PC who essentially joins the Gray Wardens to escape their fate.  Even if Duncan had his eye on you and was going to ask you to join, the origin puts you in a situation where your past life is completely destroyed and you can't go back to it.

Plus you don't magically become "A True Grey Warden" just from drinking the blood, I expect that usually this is something you grow into as you spend time with the older Grey Wardens.  If you read The Calling you can definately see that Duncan didn't start out all that high minded either, experience turned him into the wise mentor figure in the game.

[nuculerman]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

This is exactly what I was talking about. The game is about being a Grey Warden. Part of being one is leaving your old life behind, to go and fight the blight. That is supposed to be your on and only motivation.

But there are a few origins that make it really hard to just leap into that role.  For example, as a Mage, you can help the First Enchanter catch Lily and Jowan in the act.  Forced writing ensures that you're still made a Grey Warden.  A few days later you talk to Allistair to find out that your life has just been shortened by 50 or more years.  It's hard not to feel a little bitter.  Your reward for helping the First Enchanter is getting kicked out of the Circle and made to give away fifty years of your life for a reason that you don't understand until the end of the game?  Why should I be thinking, what is best for the Grey Wardens?  To my knowledge I could have helped just as easily as a circle mage in the King's Army without having to give away my ability to have a family or live a long life.

[izmirtheastarach]

Ulicus wrote...

izmirtheastarach wrote...

The thing I find most interesting about this is how many players seem to be unable to transition their characters from their origins into their new life as Grey Wardens. The decisions they make in the game seem to be all about revenge for the hurts they have suffered, rather then what a Grey Warden might actually do. A true Grey Warden wouldn't care about revenge, and so would spare Loghain simply because more Wardens are need for the final battle.

I suppose though, based on what I myself have said, my decision was based on what I felt was best for the kingdom. This is consistent with the human noble origin I most often play. It really is part of the genius of the game, I think.

Unable? Whether or not a character of mine spares Loghain is a choice I make for my character based on what I think the character would do, not what a perfect Grey Warden would do.

Assuming I get to make any choice at all. I quite like having Alistair and Loghain duel -- and then the subject of his joining the Wardens never even comes up. It makes it much easier.

I didn't mean unable as in you are refusing to. I meant that they felt that the events in the origin were strong enough to merit a change in their decision making. If you and your character felt that you own issues were more important, that's fine too.