179 réponses à ce sujet

[Adria Teksuni]

For the "the only consideration should be the Blight so the more Wardens the better" argument, wouldn't it be better to take a moment, give Alistair all the facts and try to get him to stay? You're still left with three Wardens if you don't. Take that moment, explain to Alistair, and have four.

[izmirtheastarach]

Kepha wrote...

izmirtheastarach wrote...

The thing I find most interesting about this is how many players seem to be unable to transition their characters from their origins into their new life as Grey Wardens. The decisions they make in the game seem to be all about revenge for the hurts they have suffered, rather then what a Grey Warden might actually do. A true Grey Warden wouldn't care about revenge, and so would spare Loghain simply because more Wardens are need for the final battle.

I suppose though, based on what I myself have said, my decision was based on what I felt was best for the kingdom. This is consistent with the human noble origin I most often play. It really is part of the genius of the game, I think.

The game has sort of forced this situation by making most of the origins about a PC who essentially joins the Gray Wardens to escape their fate.  Even if Duncan had his eye on you and was going to ask you to join, the origin puts you in a situation where your past life is completely destroyed and you can't go back to it.

Plus you don't magically become "A True Grey Warden" just from drinking the blood, I expect that usually this is something you grow into as you spend time with the older Grey Wardens.  If you read The Calling you can definately see that Duncan didn't start out all that high minded either, experience turned him into the wise mentor figure in the game.

I also felt my decisions were influenced by Stolen Throne. I felt like Alistair would make a great king, just like Maric had. Neither wanted to be king. The characters are very similar. Also, in that book you learn that Loghain is just like a Grey Warden. Willing to do whatever is neccessary to defend the kingdom. He just has his focus in the wrong place during the events of the game.

[Skellimancer]

Adria Teksuni wrote...

For the "the only consideration should be the Blight so the more Wardens the better" argument, wouldn't it be better to take a moment, give Alistair all the facts and try to get him to stay? You're still left with three Wardens if you don't. Take that moment, explain to Alistair, and have four.

You can't reason with Alistair though. No bloody options. I agree with the "<CHARNAME> Disapproves -200 ! get lost Alistair!" post.

He deserted so execute him. Duncan would have done the same as already said.

[izmirtheastarach]

Adria Teksuni wrote...

For the "the only consideration should be the Blight so the more Wardens the better" argument, wouldn't it be better to take a moment, give Alistair all the facts and try to get him to stay? You're still left with three Wardens if you don't. Take that moment, explain to Alistair, and have four.

That's why I felt the closest I could come is to convince him to go off and be king. He is stubborn enough to refuse to fight side by side with Loghain, and I sort of found that understandable.

[fdgarcia]

Adria Teksuni wrote...

For the "the only consideration should be the Blight so the more Wardens the better" argument, wouldn't it be better to take a moment, give Alistair all the facts and try to get him to stay? You're still left with three Wardens if you don't. Take that moment, explain to Alistair, and have four.

Alistair doesn't exactly give anyone the chance for an explanation.

It shouldn't matter, anyhow.  How quickly can one really abandon their life's work?  You don't join the Wardens to have fun.  The Blight, or the threat of one, is pretty much it.

I don't think Alistair's decision was a rational one.  It wouldn't have mattered how the proposal was framed, or whether or not the ultimate motives were explained.

[izmirtheastarach]

Skellimancer wrote...

Adria Teksuni wrote...

For the "the only consideration should be the Blight so the more Wardens the better" argument, wouldn't it be better to take a moment, give Alistair all the facts and try to get him to stay? You're still left with three Wardens if you don't. Take that moment, explain to Alistair, and have four.

You can't reason with Alistair though. No bloody options. I agree with the " Disapproves -200 ! get lost Alistair!" post.

He deserted so execute him. Duncan would have done the same as already said.

Sounds like more of an argument against the options given to you. At a certain point, Bioware had to decide what options to give you. It would be nice if all options were on the table, but we aren't there with games yet. So we are left to assume that what we are given is all that is available.

So I guess my character is less of the perfect Grey Warden my arguments claim, since he felt it was more important for Alistair to live to be king then it was to protect the Wardens.

[Adria Teksuni]

I actually get quite a long dialogue with him attempting to reason him into staying. I believe telling him that the intent is to sacrifice Loghain to the Archdemon would convince him to stay.
Also, his total unreasonable flipping out is the part I have an issue with and think it should have been handled differently. I understand why we had to have Alistair or Loghain for dev reasons, but as I've said, I thought it could have been handled better.

So I guess my character is less of the perfect Grey Warden my arguments claim, since he felt it was more important for Alistair to live to be king then it was to protect the Wardens.

Not necessarily.  Your Warden could very easily have believed that Alistair as king and a stable royal family line was more important to Ferelden than the chance that Loghain would truly honor being a Warden and serve as one rather than going screaming bonkers.

Edit - Almost forgot.  This thread is a wonderful debate!

Modifié par Adria Teksuni, 10 décembre 2009 - 08:50 .

[Kerilus]

And so Riordan is a good soldier and GW till the end, yet no more.
The Darkspawn blood in Loghain's throat does not change who he is and what he stood for just moments before he yieldis to the PC. And a former hero and liberator of Ferelden who was everything against the effort to defeat the Blight is the last person I want to share command with me with the Archdemon on our doorstep. That would only undermine my authority as the leader of the Ferelden army, which includes the whole Bannon.

Then again, I cannot deny your points on the part of helping to kill the Archdemon itself. And apparently at that point, at least to my PC, Grey warden or not I had to consider more than that...story-wise.

nuculerman wrote...

Kerilus wrote...

I know why Riordan wants to recruite Loghain, that's why I said he's ignorant of the situation BESIDES the Blight. Story-wise I might agree Loghain's talent as a general could be a great help to the war, but you should also realise that one bad general is better than two good ones. After much chaos Ferelden needs absolute unity and Loghain's death serves as a strong and undenible message to all of Ferelden who is in charge.

There IS ONLY THE BLIGHT.  That's it.  Nothing else matters.  The vast majority of your army is made up of people who couldn't care a flying f*** about unity.  The vast majority of the "King's men" were slain in Ostagar.  Redcliffe is loyal to Arl Eamon and you without question.  Loghain's "army" will most likely be more effective under his continued leadership.

Riordin isn't ignorant, he just knows what is important.  What's important is killing the archdemon.  Everything else is secondary.  The darkspawn have nearly unlimited numbers, but without an archdemon at their helm they aren't organized enough to take over Thedas.  Currently they're just a wandering swarm.  If they win this battle they are a heavily fortified enemy.  Orlais and the rest of the Grey Wardens don't stand much chance.  He says this.

He is a Grey Warden.  It is his duty and his calling to end the Blight by helping to kill the archdemon.  That's all that matters to him and its all that should matter.  His decisions should be answers to the question "how do I best increase my chances of killing the archdemon."  The obvious answer is sparing Loghain and giving them one more chance at it.    Anything less makes him a bad soldier.

[Mnemnosyne]

nuculerman wrote...

But there are a few origins that make it really hard to just leap into that role.  For example, as a Mage, you can help the First Enchanter catch Lily and Jowan in the act.  Forced writing ensures that you're still made a Grey Warden.  A few days later you talk to Allistair to find out that your life has just been shortened by 50 or more years.  It's hard not to feel a little bitter.  Your reward for helping the First Enchanter is getting kicked out of the Circle and made to give away fifty years of your life for a reason that you don't understand until the end of the game?  Why should I be thinking, what is best for the Grey Wardens?  To my knowledge I could have helped just as easily as a circle mage in the King's Army without having to give away my ability to have a family or live a long life.

Well, as a mage that shortened lifespan isn't really a major concern.  Just chat up Avernus and learn a couple tricks from him, live two or three hundred years even as a Grey Warden.  Heh.

Yes, you're forced into joining the Wardens even when you should be in good standing with the Circle - Greagoir acts pretty unreasonably demanding to investigate you further, although to be honest I doubt that he would wind up doing anything to you even if the choice to remain was present (well, if you were working under Irving's orders, anyway).  But the thing is that joining the Wardens appears to be seen as an honor all around, so most characters should theoretically be interested anyway.  You get to leave the Circle and travel wherever you wish, whenever you wish, and still practice magic.  You get to practice any damn magic you please, since Wardens don't forbid blood magic or anything else that can give them an edge.  You get respect, honor, glory, you get to be out from under the Chantry's thumb, and you're not hunted or outlawed as an apostate, and you remain welcome in the Circle if you want to come back to study or visit or whatever.  What mage would not want to be a Warden?

[fdgarcia]

Adria Teksuni wrote...

I actually get quite a long dialogue with him attempting to reason him into staying. I believe telling him that the intent is to sacrifice Loghain to the Archdemon would convince him to stay.
Also, his total unreasonable flipping out is the part I have an issue with and think it should have been handled differently. I understand why we had to have Alistair or Loghain for dev reasons, but as I've said, I thought it could have been handled better.

So I guess my character is less of the perfect Grey Warden my arguments claim, since he felt it was more important for Alistair to live to be king then it was to protect the Wardens.

Not necessarily.  Your Warden could very easily have believed that Alistair as king and a stable royal family line was more important to Ferelden than the chance that Loghain would truly honor being a Warden and serve as one rather than going screaming bonkers.

I don't think the intent is to sacrifice Loghain to the Archdemon.  He may have that chance, but it's not the original intent.  That would make for an interesting [Persuade] option, though.

I understand the desire for it.  It makes sense, it would allow for another alternative (best of both worlds scenario).  But, it cheapens the moment.  This was the hardest decision I made in the game.  I knew, as soon as my character considered sparing Loghain, that Alistair was in danger of being lost to me forever, and I hadn't read any spoilers or played through this part before.  I knew it, but I still couldn't bring myself to execute the man when he could work to reverse some of the damage he's done.

I thought Alistair would understand.  Big mistake.

[fdgarcia]

On the other hand, it was difficult for me to sit through my epilogue, to hear the part about the statue honoring Loghain and how in time his memory was tied more to his heroism than he deep betrayals. I knew that justice hadn't been done, and the thought of Alistair wasting away somewhere far, far away was a bit much to bear.

[izmirtheastarach]

Adria Teksuni wrote...

Not necessarily.  Your Warden
could very easily have believed that Alistair as king and a stable
royal family line was more important to Ferelden than the chance that
Loghain would truly honor being a Warden and serve as one rather than
going screaming bonkers.

Can and did. As I've mentioned, partly because of my connection to the character of Maric, gleaned from my enjoyment of The Stolen Throne. The line of Calenhad must be preserved.

Modifié par izmirtheastarach, 10 décembre 2009 - 08:55 .

[Adria Teksuni]

I don't think it would cheapen the moment at all, just the opposite. Alistair's hissy completely jerked me out of game immersion and into "WTH?" mode. It was just not consistent with the dialogues I'd had with him up to that point. Felt like the whole romance had been a complete waste of time as Alistair then portrayed himself as a complete and total loser butthead. The rest of the game at that point was quite tainted.



It felt completely arbitrary and out of character and definitely made me think "What was the bloody point of all that glorious romance, then?" Left a bad taste in my mouth for the rest of that gameplay.

[izmirtheastarach]

fdgarcia wrote...

On the other hand, it was difficult for me to sit through my epilogue, to hear the part about the statue honoring Loghain and how in time his memory was tied more to his heroism than he deep betrayals. I knew that justice hadn't been done, and the thought of Alistair wasting away somewhere far, far away was a bit much to bear.

That's why I made Alistair king. And being a Grey Warden isn't about justice, it's about ending the blight. Which was done. The only other option I suppose is to sacrifice yourself to end it, which I guess is just as valid.

[fdgarcia]

Adria Teksuni wrote...

I don't think it would cheapen the moment at all, just the opposite. Alistair's hissy completely jerked me out of game immersion and into "WTH?" mode. It was just not consistent with the dialogues I'd had with him up to that point. Felt like the whole romance had been a complete waste of time as Alistair then portrayed himself as a complete and total loser butthead. The rest of the game at that point was quite tainted.

It felt completely arbitrary and out of character and definitely made me think "What was the bloody point of all that glorious romance, then?" Left a bad taste in my mouth for the rest of that gameplay.

I understood it.  A bit out of character, but not incomprehensible.  Alistair is, in many ways, a very private person.  He hides a lot of pain with humor.  I guess, in this particular chain of events, Alistair's feelings about Duncan were stronger, and less founded in reason, than anyone could have expected.  Possibly even more than he could have expected.

I can't entirely relate because I hadn't romanced him, but I can see how that would have enhanced the WTF reaction.

He had a point, I think.  Not a very good one, but it was clearly important to him.

[fdgarcia]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

fdgarcia wrote...

On the other hand, it was difficult for me to sit through my epilogue, to hear the part about the statue honoring Loghain and how in time his memory was tied more to his heroism than he deep betrayals. I knew that justice hadn't been done, and the thought of Alistair wasting away somewhere far, far away was a bit much to bear.

That's why I made Alistair king. And being a Grey Warden isn't about justice, it's about ending the blight. Which was done. The only other option I suppose is to sacrifice yourself to end it, which I guess is just as valid.

Exactly.  Justice is secondary, which is why I couldn't put him on the throne.  First, he hadn't expressed much interest in it.  He actively seemed to try to distance himself from Eamon's plan.  Second, he displayed pretty seriously rash behavior.  Would a man that puts revenge ahead of the Blight be a worthy king?

It was a hard decision to make, and that's exactly why I think this part of the game worked very well.

[izmirtheastarach]

Yes, Alistair is a flawed character throughout the game, and I didn't feel this was entirely out of character either. Duncan was very important to him, and your initial conversations with him are based on that.

[Skellimancer]

fdgarcia wrote...


He had a point, I think.  Not a very good one, but it was clearly important to him.

Very bad point.

Alistair: "I can't kill Loghain so i ain't playing anymore! hope you all get devoured by the blight!"

<charname>:

[ChemicalGreen]

Koyasha wrote...

Well, as a mage that shortened lifespan isn't really a major concern.  Just chat up Avernus and learn a couple tricks from him, live two or three hundred years even as a Grey Warden.  Heh.

Yes, you're forced into joining the Wardens even when you should be in good standing with the Circle - Greagoir acts pretty unreasonably demanding to investigate you further, although to be honest I doubt that he would wind up doing anything to you even if the choice to remain was present (well, if you were working under Irving's orders, anyway).  But the thing is that joining the Wardens appears to be seen as an honor all around, so most characters should theoretically be interested anyway.  You get to leave the Circle and travel wherever you wish, whenever you wish, and still practice magic.  You get to practice any damn magic you please, since Wardens don't forbid blood magic or anything else that can give them an edge.  You get respect, honor, glory, you get to be out from under the Chantry's thumb, and you're not hunted or outlawed as an apostate, and you remain welcome in the Circle if you want to come back to study or visit or whatever.  What mage would not want to be a Warden?

There are plenty of RP options where a mage might want to remain with the Tower. Would make pretty uneventful game though.   Agree though that if you do choose the option of working for Irving, the reasons why you have to leave are pretty forced.

[izmirtheastarach]

fdgarcia wrote...

Exactly.  Justice is secondary, which is why I couldn't put him on the throne.  First, he hadn't expressed much interest in it.  He actively seemed to try to distance himself from Eamon's plan.  Second, he displayed pretty seriously rash behavior.  Would a man that puts revenge ahead of the Blight be a worthy king?

It was a hard decision to make, and that's exactly why I think this part of the game worked very well.

Definately a hard decision. I knew he would be a great king because I felt he was his father's son. And he is standing on principle, to an extent. He won't serve with the man he felt betrayed him. I, on the other hand, was willing to if it got the job done. So I felt he was better off as king, and I was better of being the real Grey Warden.

Modifié par izmirtheastarach, 10 décembre 2009 - 09:09 .

[Adria Teksuni]

He had a point, I think. Not a very good one, but it was clearly important to him.

He most definitely had a point, and his strenuous objections I completely understood. It was the "Well, I'm taking my toys and going home" snit that made my jaw drop.



Bioware had done their usual incredible job of writing romance dialogue and I had so thoroughly enjoyed it. There was quite a bit of the "I love you and I'll never leave you [excepting of course mandatory GW stuff]" material in there.



So it goes abruptly from "We'll be together forever, go to the Deep Roads together, gloriously kill darkspawn together, rebuild the Ferelden Gray Wardens forever" to "YOU'RE LETTING HIM LIVE? Well, sorry babe, I'm so out of here."

[izmirtheastarach]

It's interesting to here how a female PC exploring all the romance options colours the rest of the storyline for you. That's something that the male PC does not have to consider.

[Adria Teksuni]

Exactly. I played next with a character that ended it with him and chose Zev, and the impact of his hissy was much less. Of course, I was expecting it, too, but still my character's reaction was pretty much "What a loser" and let Anora kill him. The tender, endearing we'll be together forever dialogue is just damaged by his snit.

[tmp7704]

Adria Teksuni wrote...

He most definitely had a point, and his strenuous objections I completely understood. It was the "Well, I'm taking my toys and going home" snit that made my jaw drop.

I think it just says exactly how important that one issue was to him.

The "love forever" declarations... these are often enough based on what we think the other person is like. I'm fairly sure his idea of person he's romancing didn't include her being inconsiderate enough to ever put him in a situation like that. So when she does it's a very rude awakening and he gets to look at her with new eyes.

[izmirtheastarach]

He assumes that you feel the same way he does, and is shocked to discover that's not the case.