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[Nobody Important]

This has always really bugged me. Why didn't Riordan just force the right of conscription on Loghain during the landsmeet?

[fdgarcia]

Good point. Maybe your Alistair felt just as dumbfounded and betrayed by your decision as you did by his?

[Herr Uhl]

Nobody Important wrote...

This has always really bugged me. Why didn't Riordan just force the right of conscription on Loghain during the landsmeet?

And why would Loghain agree to that? It is a piece of paper, not a decree from the maker.

[fdgarcia]

Nobody Important wrote...

This has always really bugged me. Why didn't Riordan just force the right of conscription on Loghain during the landsmeet?

I think that's always the GW last resort option.

I don't see how it would have changed anything, either, except by not offering the potential future(s) where Alistair sticks around to the end.

[blaidfiste]

As the senior Grey Warden, Riordan should have invoked the right of conscription on Alistair, Loghain or even Anora based on who was about to get imprisioned/executed.  There are only 3 Wardens availabe to stop the archdemon.    He then further compounds things by foolishly throwing himself at the archdemon,  Nice cutscene but dumb IMO.

[fdgarcia]

blaidfiste wrote...

As the senior Grey Warden, Riordan should have invoked the right of conscription on Alistair, Loghain or even Anora based on who was about to get imprisioned/executed.  There are only 3 Wardens availabe to stop the archdemon.    He then further compounds things by foolishly throwing himself at the archdemon,  Nice cutscene but dumb IMO.

I don't think you can invoke the right of conscription on someone who is already a Gray Warden.

I suppose he could have executed Alistair a la Ser Jory, but he couldn't force him to join the order twice.

[fantasypisces]

I agree that it was slightly bad writing ::sorry! hides in a corner:: because it doesn't reflect what would really happen. Based upon game options, I killed Loghain, without question, and smiled when his blood splattered on Anora. He sided with Howe and killed my family, I became a Grey Warden which was supposed to be my new family and help me get justice, only to have Loghain betray everyone. Then he sends an assassin after me, etc etc. I was happy to kill him. My character did not know that only a Gray Warden could kill an archdemon.



My belief, is that it only played out that way because it is a game. If it was more realistic it would have been more like this:



Riordin: I have another option, allow him to become a Grey Warden.

PC: Are you crazy, why would I do that? Do you realize everything this man has done? He deserves death!

Riordin: The Grey Wardens do not discriminate. We accept everyone, murderers, criminals, traiters, blood mages.

PC: Look Riordin, this man basically killed my family, he kill the Grey Wardens of Ferelden, he was a traitor to the crown! Why do we need him so bad? We have an army, we can defeat this Archdemon without him!

Riordin: PC and Alistair, come with me. I need to discuss something with you.

--- Yadi Ya, only Grey Wardens can kill an archdemon, that is why we exist, yadi ya ---

PC: I guess then that would improve our chances.

Alistair: What! Loghain become a Grey Warden? I wouldn't give him such an honorable position.

PC: (Persuade) Look man, he is one more body and increases our odds. Maybe he will die fighting our way to the dragon, maybe we will die and he is the only one left. If he is the only option to stop the blight, then I say we take it! Plus, if we survive, we can do what we want with him after, and still get our vengeance while fulfilling our duty.

Alistair: Fine! As long as I am the one to exact vengeance!

PC: I wouldn't have it any other way.



--- Group sets off ---

Morrigan: Hey lover, make babies with me.

PC: Oh ok.

---Archdemon dead ---

PC: Hey Loghain come here a moment.

Alistair: Surprise!

--- Loghain head lobbed off ---

Queue the parade.



That is more how it would have gone.

Instead, it is save Loghain and Alistair leaves simply to keep the choices hard, that is it. It was game writing, not full character writing.

[izmirtheastarach]

blaidfiste wrote...

As the senior Grey Warden, Riordan should have invoked the right of conscription on Alistair, Loghain or even Anora based on who was about to get imprisioned/executed.  There are only 3 Wardens availabe to stop the archdemon.    He then further compounds things by foolishly throwing himself at the archdemon,  Nice cutscene but dumb IMO.

Alistair is already a Grey Warden, Anora is not a warrior, and Riordan is obviously a big fan of the movie Reign of Fire.

[Adria Teksuni]

tmp7704 wrote...
The "love forever" declarations... these are often enough based on what we think the other person is like. I'm fairly sure his idea of person he's romancing didn't include her being inconsiderate enough to ever put him in a situation like that. So when she does it's a very rude awakening and he gets to look at her with new eyes.

Except for his repeated conversations regarding doing his duty, no matter what, as a Gray Warden, and how they're expanded on within the romance.  How even if it would kill him inside if he had to leave me because of his Gray Warden duties, he would still have to leave me, etc..  Abandoning Ferelden (and the world) to a Blight because his feelings are hurt?  Not buying it.  Break up with me, call me every name in the book, but don't do a complete 360 and have everything I've learned about you throughout our time together be revealed as BS.

What I think he's like is based purely on dialogues with him.  If there's more to him than that, what's the point of extended/unlocked conversations within the romance then?  If he's not who he is portrayed to be by the dialogues, then there is no point to them whatsoever.  This isn't a movie or a book where we get the opportunity to have large amounts of subtext, non-dialogued action, and subtle emoting.  It's a CRPG where the dialogue is exactly how you learn about someone, either from them or someone else.  No one else has said that Alistair is secretly bleedingly obsessive inside, I got no hint of that from him.  I got that he was still in deep grieving for Duncan, and how he wanted Loghain to pay.  He didn't jump up and down and foam at the mouth.  He didn't go on long ranting tirades.  If he had, his leaving might have made a bit more sense to me.  And I am definitely the obsessive type.  I saved everytime I talked to him and reloaded to do all of the dialogue options.  (I know, I know, how sad am I?)

I believe that there is some "I can't believe you, of all people, can make this kind of decision" dialogue from him regarding Loghain, so yes, his rude awakening is in there (if I'm remembering correctly, I haven't done this ending since the first playthrough).   Still, his duty as a Gray Warden, oft repeated as the single most important thing to him and left to him by Duncan, is just blown off?  Just not buying it.

Wow that's a long post.  Sorry!

Alistair is already a Grey Warden, Anora is not a warrior, and Riordan is obviously a big fan of the movie Reign of Fire.

Modifié par Adria Teksuni, 10 décembre 2009 - 09:43 .

[fdgarcia]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

blaidfiste wrote...

As the senior Grey Warden, Riordan should have invoked the right of conscription on Alistair, Loghain or even Anora based on who was about to get imprisioned/executed.  There are only 3 Wardens availabe to stop the archdemon.    He then further compounds things by foolishly throwing himself at the archdemon,  Nice cutscene but dumb IMO.

Alistair is already a Grey Warden, Anora is not a warrior, and Riordan is obviously a big fan of the movie Reign of Fire.

Riordan = Matthew McConaughey?  Who's Christian Bale?

[Adria Teksuni]

You are, silly.

[fdgarcia]

Adria Teksuni wrote...

You are, silly.

Awesome.

[izmirtheastarach]

Adria Teksuni wrote...

You are, silly.

It feels like we have talked this topic to death, and while it was a very stimulating discussion, I was feeling a bit silly.

[Adria Teksuni]

Heh, I can (and often do) talk endlessly, particularly when in a good debate. Thank you verra much for the argument, izmir!

[izmirtheastarach]

I like video games.

[tmp7704]

Adria Teksuni wrote...

What I think he's like is based purely on dialogues with him.  If there's more to him than that, what's the point of extended/unlocked conversations within the romance then?  If he's not who he is portrayed to be by the dialogues, then there is no point to them whatsoever.  This isn't a movie or a book where we get the opportunity to have large amounts of subtext, non-dialogued action, and subtle emoting.  It's a CRPG where the dialogue is exactly how you learn about someone, either from them or someone else.

Well, i don't really see it as much of issue but then maybe i think of it too much like of 'real' relationship rather than "it's game, things should work different here" meta-approach. The way i view it, like with the real people you learn some things about the characters from what they tell you. The more they tell you the more you learn but still, you are not going to learn everything about them just from that, and some things they tell you don't have to turn out to be true (not even because they lie but they may not know themselves perfectly well, either).

Alistair may honestly think being a Grey Warden is that one thing he'd never give up on and your character he's in love with is another such "thing" but then he gets to realize that Grey Wardens who would want to include Loghain in their ranks are not something he wants to support. I think it's fair enough, it's one more case of reality turning out to be very different from the concept he cherishes in his mind.

So back to the original question, the "point" of extended/unlocked conversations is to learn more about the person you're supposedly interested in. If you think that not being able to learn everything through that makes that "more" worthless and pointless... we just see it differently, i guess. But i'd just like to mention even with books and movies which provide all the extra characterization, emoting etc... you still don't learn everything about the characters. Only as much as the authors manage or bother to show you and it can be very little part of what the "whole" character is actually like. But does it mean the partial characterization you get worthless and not worth paying attention to? Again, i don't think so.

[Fishy]

darkshadow136 wrote...

Riordan could have been a real cool character. But the way they wrote him in he's a lame idiot. Alister got it wright when he asked him if he was crazy for even thinking of making Loghain a warden. For one he tortured Riordan lol. Out of the 6 times I've went through the game I only sparred Loghain once for the credit of it. Every other time it was off with his traitorous head.

Loghain is a good warrior don't get me wrong. But losing Alister to have Loghain is not a fair trade.

I completly agree.
The quest  actually take quite a bit of time..years actually (around 3 years until the final fight) .. Well that my estimation anyway .Because when you enter Denerim and talk to Gorim has a Dwarf Noble..He said something along the line - It's been 2 Years since you was exiled! Yet the only thing i did was redcliff.

So you been adventuring for years with Allistair .. And loghain tryed to kill you many time and failed .. he killed the entire order of warden(ferelden) .. betrayed his king .. Tryed to take  the throne ..Tryed to murder the Arl and thus weaken even more ferelden .. Corrupted Uldred  .. etc etc etc ..

I see no reason to let's him live.hen i cut his throat with my sword i have a big grin printed in my face.

[Adria Teksuni]

I do see what you're saying tmp7704 but yes, I think we'll have to agree to disagree. For me, it was so incredibly out of character that it broke disbelief. I'm not looking to know everything about a character in a video game, but at least enough to explain future actions in hindsight. If he'd had a flip out or two about Loghain somewhere along the way, I could definitely see a "I should have seen that coming" moment.

It was just so completely out of the blue, it didn't make any sense, and that is just awkward writing to me.

Edit:  I feel I should add that when I found out about being able to use Loghain to kill the Archdemon, I thought "At least this means Alistar gets to live."

Then I found out he was quite possibly a drunken loser, or that he had simply vanished from sight for all eternity.  Oy.  The drunken loser whinging about how he used to be a Warden makes me think it's not him, though. 

Modifié par Adria Teksuni, 10 décembre 2009 - 10:12 .

[Laurelinde]

fdgarcia wrote...

Adria Teksuni wrote...

You are, silly.

Awesome.

You're Christian Bale, eh?



....how YOU doin? <3



Edit: On-topic, it didn't feel weird to me on my playthrough, but then I had Alistair fight Loghain so I never got the conversation with Riordan.

Modifié par Laurelinde, 10 décembre 2009 - 10:13 .

[Adria Teksuni]

Actually, on second thought, as Alistair has a complete meltdown and storms off, he's Christian.

[Curlain]

Adria Teksuni wrote...

Actually, on second thought, as Alistair has a complete meltdown and storms off, he's Christian.

Only if he starts yelling at a member of the camera crew before he storms off

On the subject at hand, yeah, while I think he makes a better king, in this situation he did become kinda unreasonable and whinny (if the game at least let you possibly talk Alisair down it would be different, but as it is it can feel a bit jarring)

[AtreiyaN7]

Yeah, well I see it this way from the female romance w/Alistair perspective: you've been together all the way from Ostagar, and you've both suffered at the hands of Loghain all that time, being hunted like dogs and having the name of your order smeared (you know, Loghain framing you for the king's murder & saying the Wardens were incompetent, etc. etc.). In addition, you've pretty much been agreeing with Alistair that you want payback just like he does the whole time (at least I'm pretty sure I did when the subject came up ). Then at the Landsmeet, all of a sudden (out of the blue for him), the love of his life is saying, okay, let's let Loghain join up, it'll be great! I can see why Alistair might consider that a betrayal, given his respect/love for Duncan. Everyone has their breaking point, and just because someone loves you/you love them doesn't mean they can bend THAT far backwards just because you ask them to put their feelings aside (especially with that whole shocking and seemingly sudden betrayal on your part).

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 10 décembre 2009 - 10:23 .

[Skellimancer]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Yeah, well I see it this way from the female romance w/Alistair perspective: you've been together all the way from Ostagar, and you've both suffered at the hands of Loghain all that time, being hunted like dogs and having the name of your order smeared (you know, Loghain framing you for the king's murder & saying the Wardens were incompetent, etc. etc.). In addition, you've pretty much been agreeing with Alistair that you want payback just like he does the whole time (at least I'm pretty sure I did when the subject came up ). Then at the Landsmeet, all of a sudden (out of the blue for him), the love of his life is saying, okay, let's let Loghain join up, it'll be great! I can see why Alistair might consider that a betrayal, given his respect/love for Duncan. Everyone has their breaking point, and just because someone loves you/you love them doesn't mean they can bend THAT far backwards just because you ask them to put their feelings aside (especially with that whole shocking and seemingly sudden betrayal on your part).

This game turned my character to lesbianism.

The guys are all fruitcakes.

[Herr Uhl]

Skellimancer wrote...

This game turned my character to lesbianism.

The guys are all fruitcakes.

Alastair and Zev at least. Oghren and Sten are Beefcakes.

[Skellimancer]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Skellimancer wrote...

This game turned my character to lesbianism.

The guys are all fruitcakes.

Alastair and Zev at least. Oghren and Sten are Beefcakes.

If Sten was an option i would have my armor and a hot poker at the ready.