179 réponses à ce sujet

[AtreiyaN7]

Skellimancer wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Skellimancer wrote...

This game turned my character to lesbianism.

The guys are all fruitcakes.

Alastair and Zev at least. Oghren and Sten are Beefcakes.

If Sten was an option i would have my armor and a hot poker at the ready.

LOL - I must admit that's funny.  I also like Sten...just not that way. <.<

[Itkovian]

I find that all characters behaved believably, especially in the landsmeet. Both Riordan and Alistair's actions made sense. This includes Riordan not telling us (he thought we knew, he said so himself later on).

And certainly, Alistair is right in wanting Loghain die. In the situaiton we are in, not knowing one of us has to die to kill the AD, his execution is quite just and appropriate (and a very good case could be made to have him executed even if you knew - can he be trusted, for example). Indeed, as a human noble, it is difficult to RP it otherwise.

As for Riordan, I loved the character. He gave us a splendid glimpse into the Grey Wardens, and he died heroically. Without him, we could never have defeated the AD so "easily". He took the Archdemon down, and if he hadn't, it could easily have retreated. He died, in fact, as a Grey Warden should.

Itkovian

[Adria Teksuni]

I can see why Alistair might consider that a betrayal, given his respect/love for Duncan. Everyone has their breaking point, and just because someone loves you/you love them doesn't mean they can bend THAT far backwards just because you ask them to put their feelings aside (especially with that whole shocking and seemingly sudden betrayal on your part).

That's part of the inconsistency to me. We had discussed many times that I would do what I thought was best for both Ferelden and to defeat the darkspawn no matter my feelings for him or the subject of the decision. He agreed with me and claimed he'd do the same. Riordan said that there were issues he couldn't discuss in front of the Landsmeet regarding Loghead, and I thought that trying to get Alistair to at least hear HIM out would be possible. Nope.

Definitely made me feel like it was all well and good to shag and have me make all the hard decisions until I made one he felt strongly about. Then it was screw you and screw what you think is best. Well, buddy, what I thought was best worked JUST FINE for you up to this point, now didn't it?

Jerkface.

Modifié par Adria Teksuni, 10 décembre 2009 - 10:40 .

[blaidfiste]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

blaidfiste wrote...

As the senior Grey Warden, Riordan should have invoked the right of conscription on Alistair, Loghain or even Anora based on who was about to get imprisioned/executed.  There are only 3 Wardens availabe to stop the archdemon.    He then further compounds things by foolishly throwing himself at the archdemon,  Nice cutscene but dumb IMO.

Alistair is already a Grey Warden, Anora is not a warrior, and Riordan is obviously a big fan of the movie Reign of Fire.

You're right but he could have definitely conscribed Loghain and had a few words with Al about his duties as a Warden.  That makes 4 Wardens available to kill the AD granted one of them wasn't serious.

[The Angry One]

David Gaider wrote...

I do so love it when players are willfully ignorant, and justify that by declaring that everyone else in the story is clearly stupid. It's an interesting phenomenon.

I notice you give no counter explanation for the behaviour of Mr. Jumps-To-Death..

[Mnemnosyne]

Adria Teksuni wrote...

I can see why Alistair might consider that a betrayal, given his respect/love for Duncan. Everyone has their breaking point, and just because someone loves you/you love them doesn't mean they can bend THAT far backwards just because you ask them to put their feelings aside (especially with that whole shocking and seemingly sudden betrayal on your part).

That's part of the inconsistency to me. We had discussed many times that I would do what I thought was best for both Ferelden and to defeat the darkspawn no matter my feelings for him or the subject of the decision. He agreed with me and claimed he'd do the same. Riordan said that there were issues he couldn't discuss in front of the Landsmeet regarding Loghead, and I thought that trying to get Alistair to at least hear HIM out would be possible. Nope.

Definitely made me feel like it was all well and good to shag and have me make all the hard decisions until I made one he felt strongly about. Then it was screw you and screw what you think is best. Well, buddy, what I thought was best worked JUST FINE for you up to this point, now didn't it?

Jerkface.

The part that bugs me the most to be honest is that if he respects Duncan so much, why would he go and do something Duncan would never, ever approve of - abandoning the fight and neglecting his responsibility to defeat the blight at all costs?

If he disagrees so strongly with your decision it's one thing, have a fight, break up because he feels you betrayed him by preventing his vengeance.  But to abandon the fight, his duty as a Grey Warden, and everything he claims to have stood up for, including all that goody-two-shoes nonsense he keeps pushing, just because he can't have his revenge? 

In what way does that honor Duncan's memory or respect him in the slightest?  That isn't what he would have wanted.

Although I can understand it being done in a moment of anger.  If you don't have him executed, (such as convincing him to become King anyway or whatever) it would at least be reasonable if he showed up at Redcliffe or before the final battle, sucked it up and reluctantly apologized for abandoning the fight, and - even though he demonstrates he's clearly still furious with Loghain and thinks it's unjust that he lives - asks to be part of the battle again and help defeat the Archdemon.  That would have been a resolution that would have made sense to me and I would have liked.

[ElorianV]

blaidfiste wrote...

He then further compounds things by foolishly throwing himself at the archdemon,  Nice cutscene but dumb IMO.

Riordan's sacrifice is pivotal in taking the archdemon down. He cripples it, leaves it stranded on the castle roof, and makes it possible for the rest of you to take it down. Hardly foolish and dumb, it's a heroic death.

I was very impressed with Riordan's character, especially given how little 'screentime' he had.

Modifié par ElorianV, 10 décembre 2009 - 11:52 .

[The Angry One]

ElorianV wrote...

blaidfiste wrote...

He then further compounds things by foolishly throwing himself at the archdemon,  Nice cutscene but dumb IMO.

Riordan's role is pivotal in taking the archdemon down. He cripples it, leaves it stranded on the castle roof, and makes it possible for the rest of you to take it down. Hardly foolish and dumb, it's a heroic death.

I was very impressed with Riordan's character, especially given how little 'screentime' he had.

Yeah cause a band of archers or ballistas could never eventually achieve the same effect.
Or have all Blights been ended by one Warden going Super Mario on the Archdemon?

[EddieRivers]

The part that bugs me the most to be honest is that if he respects Duncan so much, why would he go and do something Duncan would never, ever approve of - abandoning the fight and neglecting his responsibility to defeat the blight at all costs?

If he disagrees so strongly with your decision it's one thing, have a fight, break up because he feels you betrayed him by preventing his vengeance.  But to abandon the fight, his duty as a Grey Warden, and everything he claims to have stood up for, including all that goody-two-shoes nonsense he keeps pushing, just because he can't have his revenge? 

In what way does that honor Duncan's memory or respect him in the slightest?  That isn't what he would have wanted.

I believe the explanation is that by doing what you did, you not only ruined his opinion of you, but of the Grey Wardens as a whole, and thus by extension, Duncan. Alistair have regarded the Wardens as the pinnacle of what is good and Loghain as the worst kind of human scum possible. Loghain = Grey Warden gives Alistair a complete brain meltdown. It doesn't fit. He can't find it in him to see anything in Loghain worthy of the Wardens, and the only other option is something that will completely break his view of the world; that the Wardens are on par with Loghain. It's no wonder he throws a hissyfit. Especially if the person doing this to him is his lover.

Although I can understand it being done in a moment of anger.  If you don't have him executed, (such as convincing him to become King anyway or whatever) it would at least be reasonable if he showed up at Redcliffe or before the final battle, sucked it up and reluctantly apologized for abandoning the fight, and - even though he demonstrates he's clearly still furious with Loghain and thinks it's unjust that he lives - asks to be part of the battle again and help defeat the Archdemon.  That would have been a resolution that would have made sense to me and I would have liked.

That would have made sense to me too. I like to believe that Alistair would still find the world worth saving, even if it's suddenly not as pretty anymore. If you take the drunk in the epilogue to actually be him, though, I suppose it's very possible he just ran as far as he could in one direction and then sat down in a bar somewhere to get wasted, not actually stopping to think until the fight was already won. In any case, I suppose it would be as much his decision as yours that would break him.

[ElorianV]

The Angry One wrote...

Yeah cause a band of archers or ballistas could never eventually achieve the same effect.
Or have all Blights been ended by one Warden going Super Mario on the Archdemon?

My opinion is that no, archers wouldn't have downed the dragon. It'd just have retreated if under serious threat. Agree to disagree I guess, but seems to me that the writers intended Riordan's end to be a heroic one <shrug>

[The Angry One]

Call me a cynic but I see Riordan more as a plot point that outlives his usefulness.

He's needed to come in with knowledge about the Joining and whatnot in case you want Loghain, but then becomes a third wheel because the sacrifice/ritual dilemma becomes moot with him around, players would just sacrifice Riordan, who cares about the guy with the funny accent you've known for all of 5 minutes?

Hence, it's redshirt status for him. I suppose him crippling the archdemon by happenstance is a better way out than slipping on a banana peel and landing in an ogre's mouth (it could happen!) but it still seems the act of the proud recipient of a Darwin Award.

[Aedan_Cousland]

darkshadow136 wrote...

Riordan could have been a real cool character. But the way they wrote him in he's a lame idiot. Alister got it wright when he asked him if he was crazy for even thinking of making Loghain a warden. For one he tortured Riordan lol. Out of the 6 times I've went through the game I only sparred Loghain once for the credit of it. Every other time it was off with his traitorous head.

Loghain is a good warrior don't get me wrong. But losing Alister to have Loghain is not a fair trade.

I don't think it makes him stupid.

Riordan is just being very practical, in a win-at-all-costs sort of way. If Loghain is recruited and Alistair sticks around you now have four Wardens capable of dealing the death blow, instead of three. It improves the odds somewhat, even if only very slightly. The fact that he can set aside his own personal animosity towards Loghain (of which I'm sure he must have had some) in favor of more practical concerns speaks to his incredible discipline as a Grey Warden.

On my playthrough I chose not to take Riordan's advice however, because I decided my character was too consumed by his own desire for vengeance over his family being butchered, to ever give Loghain a chance at redemption. I also decided that I my character was too loyal to Alistair to not give him the retribution he desired.  As a Cousland my character would also be thinking about the future of Ferelden, and I didn't want the Hero of the River Dane to still be throwing his considerable weight around influencing affairs of state. So Loghain had to go, but I definitely understood where Riordan was coming from.

Modifié par Aedan_Cousland, 11 décembre 2009 - 12:11 .

[ElorianV]

Riordan's removal from the picture was inevitable from the moment of his 'revelation' about the slaying of the demon. I agree it was a horribly clunky plot device, but at least they allowed him some purpose/dignity in the manner of that death. I was expecting just to find him chewed up somewhere

[DarkSpiral]

The Angry One wrote...



Call me a cynic but I see Riordan more as a plot point that outlives his usefulness.

He's needed to come in with knowledge about the Joining and whatnot in case you want Loghain, but then becomes a third wheel because the sacrifice/ritual dilemma becomes moot with him around, players would just sacrifice Riordan, who cares about the guy with the funny accent you've known for all of 5 minutes?

Hence, it's redshirt status for him. I suppose him crippling the archdemon by happenstance is a better way out than slipping on a banana peel and landing in an ogre's mouth (it could happen!) but it still seems the act of the proud recipient of a Darwin Award.

I imagine you're both right, actually. Riordan's death scene made it clear why the dragon didn't just fly away; Riordan crippled it's wing, and now it can only do little "hops." Heroic death? Maybe, maybe not, but it definetly ontributed hugely to the defeat of theArchdemon.



And...yeah. He WAS a plot point that needed to be tied up. Is there any real doubt that, if given the option, we'd have slapped Riordan on the back, wished him the Maker's blessing (or good travels with Falo'Din, or that his ancestors would accept him, whatever) and let the senior member of the Grey Wardens do his duty? Archdemon would be dead, all the people I loved would be alive, I would still be there to love them, and Riordan wouldn't have to deal with the taint driving him insane. This situation would be full of win! And therefore cannot possibly be allowed to exist.



So. Yes. Both of you are right. The Angry One is coming it at it from a meta-gaming PoV, and

Elorian is coming from more of a immersion PoV.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Angry One wrote...

Maybe, it's a shame Riordan is undermined by the fact that he's an idiot.
I mean if that was his intention why not explain it to Alistair? Don't say he assumed he knew cause that just makes him look dumber; why would the two junior members of the order know the Warden's deepest darkest secret?

It's Alistair the idiot here. He should have known his role and shut his mouth in the presence of a Senior Grey Warden (who knows what he is talking about) and then ask for explanations later.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 11 décembre 2009 - 12:55 .

[Rheagan]

I have yet to allow Loghain to live on any playthrough, and I doubt I ever will.  Regardless of Alistair's feelings on the subject (which I find perfectly understandable, tbh), Loghain deliberately betrayed his king, his countrymen, and the Grey Wardens at Ostagar, by retreating from the field rather than leading his troops into the battle as he had committed to do.  He is a treacherous sob, and my PC has no reason to believe that he could be trusted not to do the same thing in the battle against the archdemon.  Even if she knew at this point in the storyline about the whole GW-must-die-to-make-archdemon-clearly-most-sincerely-dead thing, WHY would she trust him with such a crucial responsibility? This is the critical factor in her decision not to allow him to live and become a GW - his additional crimes after Ostagar are just added weight on that side of the scales.

[Wrathra]

Itkovian wrote...

I find that all characters behaved believably, especially in the landsmeet. Both Riordan and Alistair's actions made sense. This includes Riordan not telling us (he thought we knew, he said so himself later on).
And certainly, Alistair is right in wanting Loghain die. In the situaiton we are in, not knowing one of us has to die to kill the AD, his execution is quite just and appropriate (and a very good case could be made to have him executed even if you knew - can he be trusted, for example). Indeed, as a human noble, it is difficult to RP it otherwise.
As for Riordan, I loved the character. He gave us a splendid glimpse into the Grey Wardens, and he died heroically. Without him, we could never have defeated the AD so "easily". He took the Archdemon down, and if he hadn't, it could easily have retreated. He died, in fact, as a Grey Warden should.
Itkovian

Also, my issue with the whole human noble thing too is that you get to execute Howe, you can taunt him, the whole bit.  To give Alistair crap for wanting to do the same thing, to me, is hypocritcal.

I found Alistair's reactions to be spot on, whether I liked them or not. I didn't see them as out of character.  He likely felt betrayed by the PC, and I can;'t say I would act rationally in that situation.

I also think Riordan was trying to stack the deck in our favor, so to speak.  But he did have plenty of opportunity to discuss the archdemon in Arl Eamon's estate, but I also was under the impression that he didn't expect the archdemon to make an appearence.  Every one was surprised to see Riordan when he showed up at Redcliffe. He had left to do something else (for a reason that escapes me).

izmirtheastarach wrote...

Alistair is already a Grey Warden, Anora is not a warrior, and Riordan is obviously a big fan of the movie Reign of Fire.

You are so awesome.

[Mnemnosyne]

Riordan's death did feel...really, foolishly reckless.  From the first time I saw it I was like...what is he doing, trying to get killed before we defeat the Archdemon?  Yeah, he crippled it so it couldn't flee, and that was significant, but he could have died in a much less reckless and yet still quite significant way. 

Jumping on the back of a flying thing that is known to be extremely resilient to stabbing and poking and cutting, and then hoping you can kill it with the two or three stabs you're going to get before you fall to your doom seems like a plan of absolute desperation that you shouldn't be trying until there's no other option.

I'm not really sure what better scene could have presented itself off-hand, and maybe that's why they chose to go this route - they couldn't think of any better way for him to die meaningfully either and still accomplish the goal of crippling the dragon so it can't just fly away, while winding up with it stuck on top of Fort Drakon.

As for Alistair and Loghain, I think the main reason they didn't want to allow us to have both of them present at the final fight is because Loghain would feel, to most people, like as much of a 'gimme' to throw at the dragon as Riordan would have.  But then that's partly because we never really get to know Loghain much, and that's something I'm rather sad about.  There's a handful of conversations with him and that seems to be it.  I ran all over the world trying to find NPC's that would cause him to comment, but he never did.  I did see a couple inter-party banters with Leliana and Morrigan, but I only managed to get three of them to trigger total, two with Leliana and one with Morrigan, even though I actively tried triggering more.  Since we don't get to know Loghain at all, most people always see him as 'the villain' which makes it easy to throw him at the Archdemon.  I suspect that a great majority of the people who spare Loghain do not do the ritual with Morrigan and instead just let Loghain die.

[phordicus]

grey wardens only care about one thing: killing archdemons. they don't care about friendship. they don't care about national sovereignty. they don't care about cake. their only purpose is to end any particular blight by killing the archdemon. riordan knew there were at least two (mc + al/log) wardens to finish the job. in that circumstance, his life in exchange for critically disabling the archdemon wasn't just the smart or right thing to do, for him it was the only thing to do.

[Mnemnosyne]

Rheagan wrote...

I have yet to allow Loghain to live on any playthrough, and I doubt I ever will.  Regardless of Alistair's feelings on the subject (which I find perfectly understandable, tbh), Loghain deliberately betrayed his king, his countrymen, and the Grey Wardens at Ostagar, by retreating from the field rather than leading his troops into the battle as he had committed to do.  He is a treacherous sob, and my PC has no reason to believe that he could be trusted not to do the same thing in the battle against the archdemon.  Even if she knew at this point in the storyline about the whole GW-must-die-to-make-archdemon-clearly-most-sincerely-dead thing, WHY would she trust him with such a crucial responsibility? This is the critical factor in her decision not to allow him to live and become a GW - his additional crimes after Ostagar are just added weight on that side of the scales.

Because Loghain is the most driven and motivated to see the Blight ended and Ferelden saved.  Nothing matters more to him than saving Ferelden.  Nothing.  Once he has recognized that the Blight is the true threat, he will stop at nothing to defeat it, just as he stopped at nothing to defeat the Orlesian threat he believed was greater.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Wrathra wrote...
Also, my issue with the whole human noble thing too is that you get to execute Howe, you can taunt him, the whole bit.  To give Alistair crap for wanting to do the same thing, to me, is hypocritcal.

2 different situations.
Howe betrayed and killed all your family for nothing but personal greed. Loghain did everything he did for saving his country, despite being bad decisions.
Furthermore, Loghain admitted he was wrong at the end, was willing to accept whatever punishment and was willing to repent and redeem himself.. Howe insists on being a greedy **** even when dying. In addition, a senior Grey Warden proposed a plan for his redemption, we had no such option for Howe. The reason being that Loghain is a far more valuable and useful person than Howe. Also, Loghain is a symbol of Ferelden, to kill him in such a way is just unwise. Nobody likes Howe on the otherhand and no one mourns his death.

And most importantly, assuming that Riordan did want to spare Howe, my PC would certainly not act like an idiot child and say "I hate you, I wana go home waaah, I don't care if there is an archdemon to kill, leave me alone to cry waaah"

[Curlain]

phordicus wrote...

grey wardens only care about one thing: killing archdemons. they don't care about friendship. they don't care about national sovereignty. they don't care about cake. their only purpose is to end any particular blight by killing the archdemon. riordan knew there were at least two (mc + al/log) wardens to finish the job. in that circumstance, his life in exchange for critically disabling the archdemon wasn't just the smart or right thing to do, for him it was the only thing to do.

Only care about killing Archdemons? Check
Can't care about friendship?  Tough, but, Check
Don't care about national sovereignty? Oh well, might not even be playing a human noble so Check
No cake? Now that's just foolish talk

[David Gaider]

Well, since the discussion continues, I'll repeat what I said in the last thread that discussed this.

Riordan didn't know that you were unaware of the Final Solution. He doesn't know what Alistair was or wasn't told, and how would he have known that Alistair was deferring to a new recruit? Even if he did know, or suspect, he could not know that the showdown with the Archdemon would have come before the Grey Wardens from Orlais would arrive. Just because you know that in hindsight does not make him stupid for not realizing that it would come down to a do-or-die mission of a handful of Grey Wardens to save Denerim. At the Landsmeet, adding to the thin Grey Warden ranks was a good idea -- especially when it came to the possibility of a decent recruit like Loghain -- but at the time it was not yet imperative.

As for Alistair, if he does anything objectionable I'd say it would be the fact that he's unwilling to return to the Grey Warden ranks once the Denerim situation becomes apparent (should you have recruited Loghain, I mean). Dislike him for that, if you wish, but if the notion is that he should accept Loghain's recruitment "for the greater good" when it's against everything he believes in then I simply will never agree. He sees being a Grey Warden, and even killing the Archdemon, as an honor -- you disabuse him of that idea at your peril, especially if you are the woman he loves. I think, at that point, he would hope that you'd have his back for once, and not he yours.

If you think that the plot is clumsily executed, that's up to you. I won't argue, as there are a hundred reasons the ending played out why it did and not all of them had anything to do with the story, but if the idea is that events would have turned out differently if the plot had lined up in a different way -- well, yes. Isn't that obvious?

Perhaps you don't like how it went down, and that's cool. Lots of people have different preferences for the way they might have wanted the plot to go. That's nothing new, and I'm always willing to listen to reasoned feedback. Ignoring facts that you dislike or find inconvenient, however, isn't going to make your argument more convincing. Not to me.

[Wardka]

Yeah, I think that Alistair returning to fight in Denerim would've made it more easy to accept. He could've still cut every bond of friendship with , but I really think shirking his duty and turning his back on the fight against the Archdemon seems inconsistent with his character, especially since that was what his hero - Duncan - was all about.



The whole storming off doesn't seem off base - but Alistair seems like the sort who would, twenty minutes later go "What'd I just do? Aw, dammit..." and then return after he's calmed down to take part in the final battle.

[DeathWyrmNexus]

The Angry One wrote...

Maybe, it's a shame Riordan is undermined by the fact that he's an idiot.
I mean if that was his intention why not explain it to Alistair? Don't say he assumed he knew cause that just makes him look dumber; why would the two junior members of the order know the Warden's deepest darkest secret?

... Well he does say there are reasons for it. But being in the middle of the Landsmeet isn't exactly a place to discuss Warden secrets. I do feel that Riordan should have advised to have Loghain imprisoned so he could have a word with the Wardens. Shouldn't be that unreasonable if the proper guards are used. I am sure my companions wouldn't mind glaring at him while we have a Warden pow wow.