179 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

I for one am not saying that the whole Alistair thing was badly written, on the contrary, it's coherent with his character. And I simply dislike and disrespect his character and I do not wish the outcome (of him shirking from his duty, because that's his pathetic personality) to be different. For me to dislike a game character must be due to good writing in fact. A character I do not feel anything towards is probably either a badly written one, or simply written to be irrelevent.



But I do think Alistiar knew that the archdemon was coming very soon. He himself said that the Grey Wardens from Orlais and other regions may never make it in time. That's why he didn't want to leave Ferelden to alert them in the first place. So I don't think that can be used as an excuse for his childish, un-Grey Warden like, behaviour.



The only reason I left him alive is to show him that I don't even view him as a threat to my rule. He is nothing.

[DarkSpiral]

Wardka wrote...

Yeah, I think that Alistair returning to fight in Denerim would've made it more easy to accept. He could've still cut every bond of friendship with , but I really think shirking his duty and turning his back on the fight against the Archdemon seems inconsistent with his character, especially since that was what his hero - Duncan - was all about.

The whole storming off doesn't seem off base - but Alistair seems like the sort who would, twenty minutes later go "What'd I just do? Aw, dammit..." and then return after he's calmed down to take part in the final battle.

I agree.  In fact, there was a scene I got on teh last time I played through the Landmeet (Anora was going to marry me and be Queen, Alistair was A-OK with it, and I was going to spare Loghain's life...well...mostly because he OFFERED to YIELD.  It was only after that that Rioardin suggested the Joining.

Anyway, that wasn't the point I was trying to make.  I don't recall how exactly I got this dilogue (I really wish I could recall) but basically Anora tried to defend her father's life by saying he's a hero, etc, etc, and Listair comes back with the cold hard fact that every man and woman at Ostagar might disagree with her, if they were able to say so.

*sigh*  I'm not doing this diague credit.  It was moving, and it was quite true.  Anyone else have this dialogue happen?

An option where he comes back, to help deal with the situation in Denirum would be cool.  He could warn you to stay the hell away from him from now on, something along those lines.  It has possibilities.

Modifié par DarkSpiral, 11 décembre 2009 - 01:47 .

[I Valente I]

Riordan was one of my favorite characters in the game. Some of you are using some severly skewed logic to make him and the writers look bad. Arguing with you is pointless seeing as you'll undoubtedly pull some even more skewed answers to prove yourselves right. There are many ways the plot could have evolved, simply because it didn't evolve in the most efficient, casualty-less way doesn't mean it's dumb. Ficiton's goal is to make realistically believable situations. In real life, things never go as planned.

[fantasypisces]

My only complaint is, that outside of a game, there would have been more dialogue and Riordin might have gotten the hint you didn't know the "whole truth". Now, for being a game and focusing on hard choices i can understand.



And I do understand the Alistair choice, exactly for the reasons David mentioned. He considers being in the Grey Wardens, and killing the archdemon, to be an honor, something Loghain is not deservant of. I will admit that I loved Alistairs character, up until that (I haven't done it myself yet, so my two characters are ignorant to that character trait) but after reading it all it made me very disapointed in him.



Do I understand Alistair's reasoning? Of course, do I agree with it? No.

He does talk about doing anything to save the blight, but I don't think saving Loghain ever entered his mind, so when it does, his mind explodes and he loses it, which I can see. Of course I do think Riordin should have just conscripted Loghain, would have been easier, but meh, like I said, it was to have the player make a difficult choice.

[red8x]

What Gaider doesn't seem to understand is that we don't get the whole story that is in his head, we just get the story that we play.  While he is the omniscient view point we are hobbled by a third person view point.  As a player we experience the Dragon Age world in bits and pieces, our in-game choices narrowing the field of vision even more.  We are never inside the other characters' heads and can only pry so much information from them.  So, when some players think Riordan is stupid it's because they experienced him as stupid.  Interactions with him were very limited and rushed.  

Let me offer an example:  You are on a winter-wonderland walk when you notice a boy with his tongue stuck a pole.  More than likely, you would think to yourself 'what a stupid kid.'  Little do you know that this kid has the IQ of a genius and wrote a dissertation on quantum physics at the ripe age of 12!  That he's a genius really doesn't matter because all you get see is a kid with his tongue stuck on a pole. In other words, Riordan was just the guy who jumped on a flying dragon and Alistair was the guy who chose revenge over duty.  And the player doesn't know that Riordan didn't know that the player didn't know what a Grey Warden should know.  And there was no option to tell him otherwise.

(On another note - unless you are discussing the Holocaust, 'the Final Solution' is not a phrase that should be used.)

Modifié par red8x, 11 décembre 2009 - 02:28 .

[Mikka-chan]

I wanted there to be an option to do some persuading/intimidating on Alistair. Even if done so, he'd still run off at you, but if you'd gotten through, he'd then be up there in the last battle- not on your team, but like how Irving and the Legion of the Dead dwarf are running around. IE, he wouldn't be able to work with you and he would continue to feel horribly betrayed by you, but he would be still there fighting the archdemon, if only for Duncan's memory.

At the same time, though... maybe that would be the *right* thing to do. But he doesn't even know that a Gray Warden *has* to kill the archdemon, and honestly, when you've just been hurt and betrayed (and I think that while the Gray Warden may think Alistair betrayed him or her, Alistair probably feels the Gray Warden betrayed him), doing the right thing is not always on your mind. 'Work with your father's killer' is not something many people can do easily.

...I like to desperately imagine that if Loghain and the PC fall on their way up that tower and the archedemon remains up their howling, Alistair would head up there eventually and try to kill it (if likely fail, unless the others managed to do severe damage before dying, which is possible). But it's hard to say.

And yeah, I cringed at the use of Final Solution there.

[ComTrav]

I the feel staging of the game sort of undercuts some of the impact of the Landsmeet scene. The fact that you can stop, consider your response, and then pick whatever breaks it up artificially. It makes more sense if you think of it as emotions and tempers running high, people acting without really thinking or understanding everything; a heated moment when people do things they regret, or might not do if they had really thought about it. (Certainly, if you spare Loghain and keep Alistair alive, his later life as a nobody drunk conveys to me that he regretted his decision to leave the Wardens.)

But every time the conversation rolls round to the PC, things are paused and I get to consider which of 5-6 responses I want. There are lots of times in the game when this pause builds dramatic tension ("What on EARTH should I say/do to get out of this one?") but in this case it almost makes everything seem calmer and more calculated then it really is.

If this were a movie, the whole scene would take like two minutes, and everyone afterward might realize that they screwed up, but there's no going back.

Modifié par ComTrav, 11 décembre 2009 - 02:56 .

[Adria Teksuni]

David Gaider wrote...

Well, since the discussion continues, I'll repeat what I said in the last thread that discussed this.

Riordan didn't know that you were unaware of the Final Solution. He doesn't know what Alistair was or wasn't told, and how would he have known that Alistair was deferring to a new recruit? Even if he did know, or suspect, he could not know that the showdown with the Archdemon would have come before the Grey Wardens from Orlais would arrive. Just because you know that in hindsight does not make him stupid for not realizing that it would come down to a do-or-die mission of a handful of Grey Wardens to save Denerim. At the Landsmeet, adding to the thin Grey Warden ranks was a good idea -- especially when it came to the possibility of a decent recruit like Loghain -- but at the time it was not yet imperative.

As for Alistair, if he does anything objectionable I'd say it would be the fact that he's unwilling to return to the Grey Warden ranks once the Denerim situation becomes apparent (should you have recruited Loghain, I mean). Dislike him for that, if you wish, but if the notion is that he should accept Loghain's recruitment "for the greater good" when it's against everything he believes in then I simply will never agree. He sees being a Grey Warden, and even killing the Archdemon, as an honor -- you disabuse him of that idea at your peril, especially if you are the woman he loves. I think, at that point, he would hope that you'd have his back for once, and not he yours.

If you think that the plot is clumsily executed, that's up to you. I won't argue, as there are a hundred reasons the ending played out why it did and not all of them had anything to do with the story, but if the idea is that events would have turned out differently if the plot had lined up in a different way -- well, yes. Isn't that obvious?

Perhaps you don't like how it went down, and that's cool. Lots of people have different preferences for the way they might have wanted the plot to go. That's nothing new, and I'm always willing to listen to reasoned feedback. Ignoring facts that you dislike or find inconvenient, however, isn't going to make your argument more convincing. Not to me.

Thank you for this, David, it is truly appreciated.  The only real issue I have with the game is that one Alistair moment where he leaves.  I just didn't feel there was enough character background provided to support such a decision, and as such, it feels off.  I suppose I will have to chalk it up as I have been, an "I would have liked things done differently" moment, and move on.   

Okay, maybe not move on completely.  I'll probably still rant and rave and stamp my hooves about it.  And still call Alistair a jerkface when I refer to that particular ending, which I'll never, ever play again as a human noble female.  Hee!

Modifié par Adria Teksuni, 11 décembre 2009 - 03:10 .

[Randy1012]

I have no problem with Riordan going all Van Zan on the archdemon. He saw an opportunity to bring down the archdemon, and he took it, as should any other Grey Warden in such a situation. He only became a stain on the streets because the archdemon forced him to move from his original position.

[izmirtheastarach]

Yes, obviously since Denton Van Zan is a total badass and we have established that Riordan is a big fan of his, his attack on the archdemon was unavoidable.



On I serious note, that fact that the lead writer of the game continues to interact with people who are rehashing the same arguments over and over again is amazing to me. Kudos to Mr. Gaider.



And please people, have some sympathy for the fact that this is a medium with limitations, and sometimes decisions are made that we don't agree with. I really do feel that is necessary to nitpick quite a bit to find anything genuinely wrong with this game.

[SnakeStrike8]

What it comes down to, really, is turning Loghain's own psychology against him. So you'll do anything for your homeland, will you? You'll do anything to preserve the nation that you and Maric and Rowan built, will you? Then take the Joining. Put your money where your mouth is, and fight the Blight. And guess what? Loghain does it. He doesn't refuse to become a Grey Warden. You don't need to tie him to a chair and force Darkspawn blood down his throat. He voluntarily agrees to write off his life for Ferelden, and he does it by joining a faction that he had slandered and defamed earlier. And that, I think, makes him a far better man than Alistair will ever be. Being a Grey Warden is not an honor. It's a death sentence.

Loghain can swallow his pride and get on with the job of saving Ferelden. Alistair can't. Now you tell me who is more honorable from the two of them? Riordan got it, and that speaks volumes about him.

[kormesios]

Nobody Important wrote...

This has always really bugged
me. Why didn't Riordan just force the right of conscription on Loghain
during the landsmeet?

Because it would have been the worst thing he could have done.  The Landsmeet would have viewed it, quite reasonably, as proof that the Grey Wardens were yet again meddling in royal politics, revoked the right of conscription, and kicked the Wardens out of Ferelden.  Again.  In the middle of the Blight.  Loghain would have become unassailable.  (Well, until he was devoured by an archdemon.)

red8x wrote...
What Gaider doesn't seem to understand is that we don't get the whole story that is in his head, we just get the story that we play.  While he is the omniscient view point we are hobbled by a third person view point.  As a player we experience the Dragon Age world in bits and pieces, our in-game choices narrowing the field of vision even more.  We are never inside the other characters' heads and can only pry so much information from them.  So, when some players think Riordan is stupid it's because they experienced him as stupid.  Interactions with him were very limited and rushed. . . . Riordan was just the guy who jumped on a flying dragon and Alistair was
the guy who chose revenge over duty.  And the player doesn't know that
Riordan didn't know that the player didn't know what a Grey Warden
should know.  And there was no option to tell him otherwise.

?

I don't get this?  Isn't this how it *should* be?  Like real life interactions, you get the third-person interactions.  You don't have the whole story.  You go with limited information.  You don't want way more information that your character has, do you?

I could pick a couple incidents in the game I think are unclear when they should be obvious to the PC, but Riordan isn't one of them.  Like you said, interactions with Riordan were rushed, and your Grey Warden orientation cut short.  My first play through, I assumed I had all the relevant facts, found out after I'd executed Loghain that I didn't--and then, well, oops.

But if it was logical for my PC to assume he knew what was going on (and it was . . . I'd done quite well up to that point) how can I blame RIordan for assuming the same thing?

[kormesios]

SnakeStrike8 wrote...
Loghain can swallow his pride and get on with the job of saving Ferelden. Alistair can't. Now you tell me who is more honorable from the two of them? Riordan got it, and that speaks volumes about him.

The issue is judgment, not honor.

The first time Loghain tried to "get on with the job of saving Ferelden" in this game, he murdered the king, triggered a civil war, and sacrificed half the nation to the Blight.

And Alistair, for some funny reason, is unconvinced you should let him try save Ferelden for a second time..  Go figure.

[red8x]

kormesios wrote...

red8x wrote...
What Gaider doesn't seem to understand is that we don't get the whole story that is in his head, we just get the story that we play.  While he is the omniscient view point we are hobbled by a third person view point.  As a player we experience the Dragon Age world in bits and pieces, our in-game choices narrowing the field of vision even more.  We are never inside the other characters' heads and can only pry so much information from them.  So, when some players think Riordan is stupid it's because they experienced him as stupid.  Interactions with him were very limited and rushed. . . . Riordan was just the guy who jumped on a flying dragon and Alistair was
the guy who chose revenge over duty.  And the player doesn't know that
Riordan didn't know that the player didn't know what a Grey Warden
should know.  And there was no option to tell him otherwise.

?

I don't get this?  Isn't this how it *should* be?  Like real life interactions, you get the third-person interactions.  You don't have the whole story.  You go with limited information.  You don't want way more information that your character has, do you?

That is precisely my point.  It is because there is limited information that certain events, actions, reactions by the NPCs etc. might not make sense to the player because the player never gets the full backstory.  

I wasn't saying that I want every minute and intimate detail about every character in the game.  What I was trying to say is that I don't think it's fair to criticize the player for not knowing these details of what makes each NPC tick when there is no way of knowing them.  

In the end all we have left are suppositions and interpretations based on what we experienced.  I personally don't think anyone's interpretation of Riordan's motives is wrong because who am I to criticize what they experienced? 

Modifié par red8x, 11 décembre 2009 - 05:37 .

[tmp7704]

SnakeStrike8 wrote...

Loghain can swallow his pride and get on with the job of saving Ferelden.

To be fair it's not exactly like Loghain has any pride to swallow at that point. He's been beaten literally into corner and given a "choice" of either being executed on the spot or becoming a Grey Warden. Kind of like your own character in the prologue. This is as much "saving Ferelden" as it's saving his own life, hardly worth any brownie points.

[Rheagan]

Koyasha wrote...

[Because Loghain is the most driven and motivated to see the Blight ended and Ferelden saved.  Nothing matters more to him than saving Ferelden.  [b]Nothing.[/b]  Once he has recognized that the Blight is the true threat, he will stop at nothing to defeat it, just as he stopped at nothing to defeat the Orlesian threat he believed was greater.

I honestly can't find anything in the game to support this interpretation of Loghain's character.  Loghain seems to me to be a man who will stop at nothing to achieve what Loghain wants, and one of the things he apparently wants is the end of the Grey Wardens in Ferelden.  There is just no logical reason for my PC to trust him.

As for Loghain being "the most driven and motivated to see the Blight ended and Ferelden saved" . . . well, that's just a little bit insulting to the PC.  I didn't notice Loghain spending months (years?) slogging back and forth across Ferelden, battling darkspawn, demons, reavers, revenants, werewolves and worse while trying to gain enough allies to give Ferelden a fighting chance against the Blight.

[kormesios]

red8x wrote...

That is precisely my point.  It is because there is limited information that certain events, actions, reactions by the NPCs etc. might not make sense to the player because the player never gets the full backstory.  

I wasn't saying that I want every minute and intimate detail about every character in the game.  What I was trying to say is that I don't think it's fair to criticize the player for not knowing these details of what makes each NPC tick when there is no way of knowing it. 

This may end up going in circles, so I don't want to belabor the point.

That being said: I agree, there is limited information, players don't know the details, can't know it all, etc.

I do think, on a first playthrough, it's reasonable to assume that Riordan is well-informed.  Then you find out that, what with the crisis and his poisoning and torture, some important information was missing for both parties, because they just assumed the other guy had it.  This all seems perfectly reasonable in-game to me.

To make some other argument (like Riordan is an idiot) you'd need to make a whole lot of assumptions about what Riordan knew, should have known, when Wardens usually get told about the archdemon  thing, etc.  And, as you agree, the player *doesn't* know these things . . . so what's the justification for the Riordan-is-an-idiot argument?

Ignoring the jumping on the demon's back thing, which seemed a reasonable gamble to me.  Especially since he didn't know he wasn't the main character in the video game . . . .

[SeanMurphy2]

I think it is messy to fully explain every character's decisions within the game. An example is when you get to Lothering. Some players may think, "why can't we just go to Denerim and kill Loghain?". So the writers have Morrigan raise the question. And they answer why it is not a good idea.

It would be awkward to have a group conversation about Alistair afterwards.

Sten/Morrigan - "Typical, he is abandoning his duty at a crucial moment, What would Duncan do etc"
Wynne - "Remember he sees joining the Grey Wardens as an honour"
Leliana - "He feels betrayed by you. He will get over it in a few days. I am sure he will try to rejoin the fight"

I think it is hard to keep having those group conversations. I remember in KOTOR they had a group conversation after the big revelation. To explain why each NPC is still cool about remaining in the party.

Modifié par SeanMurphy2, 11 décembre 2009 - 06:07 .

[izmirtheastarach]

Rheagan wrote...

I honestly can't find anything in the game to support this interpretation of Loghain's character.  Loghain seems to me to be a man who will stop at nothing to achieve what Loghain wants, and one of the things he apparently wants is the end of the Grey Wardens in Ferelden.  There is just no logical reason for my PC to trust him.

The question though, is what does Loghain want? To defend Fereldan and to do so without the assistance of the damned Orlesians. To him, any alliance with them is a betrayel, as they raped his mother and drove him from his land. If you read a bit further into the back story, he even considers the Grey Wardens to be Orlesians, as they order has just recently returned to Fereldan. He is paranoid to the extreme about any involement from Orlais.

Everything he does is because of his hatred and fear of Orlais. If he commited his army at Ostagar and lost, the Orlesians could march on Denerim and no one would be there to stop them. Loghain wanted to beat back the darkspawn without exposing the nation to Orlesian aggression.

Loghain is, at heart, the ultimate nationalist patriot. When you talk to him after the landsmeet, you learn that he never wanted the throne, all he was trying to do was defend Fereldan. He felt he was the only man who could, just as he had been ever since joining up with Maric. After you defeat him, he admits that he was wrong, that you are in fact the man/woman who is needed to defeat the darkspawn.

Modifié par izmirtheastarach, 11 décembre 2009 - 06:17 .

[Rainen89]

I'm sorry, but anyone who's logical rationale is to jump onto a flying dragon (midair mind you.) and attempt to slay it while it's still airborne is not intelligent enough to plan that far ahead. Nor would he be for preserving his own life.

[The Capital Gaultier]

 Riordan is not very perceptive.  I don't think he's badly written, just not very perceptive.  His motives seem very straightforward, and he accepts his fate without question.  To me, he represents something that I do not want to be.  But, I do think his motives are pure.

[digby0802]

Riordan didnt need to be well written he ends up a splash of red nastiness on the ground. And he is probably in cahoots with Leilana to spy on ferelden.

[kormesios]

Rainen89 wrote...

I'm sorry, but anyone who's logical rationale is to jump onto a flying dragon (midair mind you.) and attempt to slay it while it's still airborne is not intelligent enough to plan that far ahead. Nor would he be for preserving his own life.

Why?  Not only did his "idiocy" almost succeed, even in failure he crippled the archdemon and allowed others to kill it.  This is an excellent gamble, that pays dividends even if you lose.

Obviously one of his goals *isn't* trying to preserve his own life, since he knows he's dead either way.

Again, the only reason the player knows it's a bad strategy is because we know we're the hero, and his tacitcs are thus guaranteed to fail while ours succeed. It'd be better for us if he did nothing until the demon was cornered by the magic of Genre Video Game Conventions, and then he could take the final blow instead of us.

Modifié par kormesios, 11 décembre 2009 - 06:31 .

[Randy1012]

Rainen89 wrote...

I'm sorry, but anyone who's logical rationale is to jump onto a flying dragon (midair mind you.) and attempt to slay it while it's still airborne is not intelligent enough to plan that far ahead. Nor would he be for preserving his own life.

"Oh, hey, there's that archdemon I have to kill. I may never get a better opportunity than now. But heck with it, I'll just head on downstairs and let the beast get away. Maybe I'll manage to survive battling thousands of darkspawn long enough to get this close again."

Riordan was a dead man walking anyway. He had nothing to lose. Throwing away a chance, any chance, to kill the archdemon would have been contrary to his entire purpose as a Grey Warden.

[izmirtheastarach]

Yes, Raine89 makes an eloquent well thought out argument that certainly hasn't been made a dozen times by people who have nothing else to say. Thanks for the contribution.

How dare Riordan try to do his job? What a ridiculous thing for him to do.

We all know the best way to kill a dragon is to ask it, very nicely, to please come and land nearby to we can kill it.
 That always works.

Modifié par izmirtheastarach, 11 décembre 2009 - 07:00 .