87 réponses à ce sujet

[Tosheroon]

purplesunset wrote...

Lobsang1979 wrote...

What is the big deal about an incentive being offered for the sale of a piece of merchandise? Bioware is a business. EA is a business. Businesses employ lots of marketing types to make them money. This does not ruin the game I already have, and enjoy, nor is it inherently evil.

Well-intentioned post but quite naive if you believe that a company's practices to make more $$money$$ would have no effect on the product itself.

Ever heard of company culture?

When Bioware was young, I guarantee you the company cutlture was vastly different than it is now. Can company culture have an effect on the product itself? You bet.

That is a political statement, but that's fair enough. I don't think it makes me naive, though, just because I happen to take a middle road on this issue.

I don't support individual developers or publishers when I buy a PC game, I make an informed choice based on my own purchasing criterea. I am happy with this purchase, but if Bioware self destructs by devolving into some parody of itself by offering poor games and poor DLC, I will not feel personally invested in such an event. Thus, I do not feel the need to lecture them on what their business practices should be. It is their responsibility to have the checks and balances in place.

I suppose, in essence, I am an exploitative consumer. I buy what I want with no regard for the long-term well being of the provider. Conversely, I expect to be treated the same way by said provider.

[aries1001]

I don't need to buy a T-shirt to get an amulet. (especially not if they're enough amulets in the game already). The game should be enough for me so far, I find. When Bioware was young, their games got published by Black Isle (Interplay). I still have the T-shirt that came with the Collector's Edition of Baldur's Gate 2. Publisher's I think have the final say in what content are in games....



The industry has changed during the last 10-12 years, making games is now big business. Hence the need to secure (more) income and revenue to the developing and publishing houses. 12 years ago or even 8-9 years ago, a game needed only to sell maybe 400,000 copies to be successfull. Today, a game needs to shift up to 2 million SKUs (stock keeping units) in the first 5-10 weeks to be considered succesfull or profitable.



As such, DLC helps Bioware (and EA) to earn money to make more of the games we like.

[purplesunset]

aeries, the OP actually agrees with you, I think. 

It's not about the amulet, nor is it about the t-shirt. They're not against a company making money, nor are they against DLC. The OP was just expressing concern at what they perceive as quick spiral down the road to consumer hell with regards to their business practices. (Heck the OP even referenced Dante's Inferno ).

It's a slippery slope argument, more than anything else. But I suppose it's not completely unfounded.

[Cryo84]

Nice, everything goes back to the toolset.

Too bad most people playing this game can't use it.

[Deltago Lavista]

Aesir Rising wrote...

Deltago Lavista wrote...

I am guessing you have the statsistics to back up how this sales module is anti-consumer, which is different than anti-you. .

Statistics don't define the meaning of the term 'anti-consumer'.  So, educate yourself about the concept, and if you have questions, come back.  But asking for statistics to back up the term illustrates a particular ignorance on the subject.  If you insist that statistics are necessary, I'm game - so let me know exactly what statistics you want or expect which measure the concept of anti-consumerism and I'll try to get some for you. 

http://en.wikipedia....nti-consumerism

See, now you are changing your stance. Consumer does not equal consumerism.

In the original post, you were complaining that newer games were not "consumer-friendly," now you are throwing out anti-consumerism and hoping I back down after reading a wiki entry. These are two completely different things. I want you to give me statsitics on how DLC is less consumer friendly.

Statistics like: Amount of DLC sold compared to games sold. How about having purchasers/players rate the game, then compare the ratings of DLC users to non DLC users. How about getting some qualitive responses on people who rate the game low, and see if they are rating it low due to insuffient content. You can also probe players who rated the game high by asking "what would you of liked to see in this game," and see how many actually respond with an amulet suited for Templars. 

How about knowing that companies like EA games and Bioware, and all them other companies have done studies like this in their previous game releases, and built this type of cross-marketing to not only increase their profit (this is a good thing more profit = more games), but to do in a way that doesn't hinder the majority of their loyal fan base. It's not anti-consumer. Anti-consumer would be charging you for a critical patch. It maybe Anti-you. I say, oh well welcome to the minority. Don't like it, then stop purchasing games. 

So the question still remains: How is purchasing things you want to use, less friendly then buying the entire package at an increased cost and only using some of the content? please explain, in detail. Thanks.

[delra123]

This business model is chaotic and crappy aimed at extorting money for low-quality additions that don't blend into the game at all. I too hope it fails and EA dies with it.

[purplesunset]

Something's been bugging me, and I can't resist the urge to clarify.

The way in which the OP used the word "anti-consumer", really means "against consumer" or "having contempt for consumers"

The concept "anti-consumerism", however,  is a philosophy which is against the concept that buying more stuff increases happiness.

So while EA might be "anti-consumer" according to how the OP defined it, EA is NOT a proponent of "anti-consumerism." That would be shooting themselves in the foot.

Modifié par purplesunset, 10 décembre 2009 - 11:16 .

[aries1001]

Yes, I understand the OP's point. However, I don't think you need to have all the DLC, the mug and the T-shirts to enjoy the 80 hour game. Some people will buy it. That's OK. Some people won't. That's ok, too.



As I understand (at least in the US), you get a small item (maybe a candy bar or a wash cloth) if you buy a bigger item, like a mattress or a tv. (for a tv you could get a screen cloth for free...) People living in the US and maybe in Canadian are used to this, Europeans aren't as much. To me, the buy a game and get a free promo item for another game or buy a t-shirt and get a free item for a game just shows that games now are seen as items similar to chairs, beds or cars.



We can regret how the industry has changed during the last 8-10 years; realistically we must admit that this how the industry (for making games) will develop during the next 8-10 years, I find.

[Kourd]

They where already selling the t-shirt on the online store before the game even came out. I haven't checked to see if the price of the shirt is different, but if it's not.. haven't they simply added to the value of the purchase of the shirt?



It's like because it's being advertised on the DA website there's suddenly some obligation that we have to buy it. As long as any DLC is adding to the game, and not hindering the core game you purchased I think you're just demanding that the glass is half-empty in many cases.

[Dex1701]

Putting in a code and mysteriously getting a free item in the game is...silly anyway. Do not want. Do not feel the need to have every little piece of promo content, either.



<---- not caring

[Aesir Rising]

Deltago Lavista wrote...

<snip>

So the question still remains: How is purchasing things you want to use, less friendly then buying the entire package at an increased cost and only using some of the content? please explain, in detail. Thanks.

I acknowledge the distinction between anti-consumer and anti-consumerism.  Thank you.  For clarity, I'll write "anti-customer" from now on.  You'll agree that my stance hasn't changed though. If not, let me know where you misunderstand.

To your critical question, the simplest answer I can give you is that I cannot buy what I want.  My choice in content is limited several ways - starting with pre-order or not, right up to vendor selection.  And t-shirt availability.  Though, it's clear now that the ad copy for that is wrong and the content is not exclusive.  How many will catch that mistake?

Here's a stat for you:  I need a calculator because the numbers are too large, but while I'm working it out, try to answer this:

How much does it cost to obtain all the DLC? 

So, re: cost savings and how the DLC marketing model saves you money - is that cost savings based on giving up some content?  If so, then yes of course, if you're getting less you should be paying less.  Right?  Though I also note the game and it's Day 1 DLC wasn't any cheaper than the next game on the virtual shelves.  A bit more expensive than most actually.  You need stats for this?

Anyway, I'm still working out the cost if I wanted to obtain all of the DLC.  It's going to take me a while because this whole thing is a very customer-unfriendly and overly-complicated mess.  In fact, I'm not even certain it is possible anymore to get all the DLC. I think some of it is tied to pre-orders from specific vendors.

[Tereval]

I would like a Grey Warden t-shirt myself but Biowares store has none in stock every time I check. I'm Canadian which apparently means I can't purchase the merchandise anywhere up here, funny given Biowares origin.

[Dex1701]

Aesir Rising wrote...
Anyway, I'm still working out the cost if I wanted to obtain all of the DLC.  It's going to take me a while because this whole thing is a very customer-unfriendly and overly-complicated mess.  In fact, I'm not even certain it is possible anymore to get all the DLC. I think some of it is tied to pre-orders from specific vendors.

What's wrong with not getting all the DLC?

[cheeseslayersmu]

Aesir Rising wrote...

Seemed like the industry was more consumer-friendly when it was:

• release
• patch
• expansion

Now, we have:

• pre-purchase
• watch the release date slip 7 months on your platform you pre-ordered for due to issues on some platform you don't care about.
• pre-purchase in-game content limited to certain retailers, removing choice of retailer based on preference/quality of service and price instead to whether or not the retailer offered enough graft.
• release
• patch
• nickel content
• dime content
• buy THIS game and get nickel content for THAT game
• buy something that has nothing to do with the game from some company that has nothing to do with the game to get this other bit of content.

I'm sure I've missed a bullet in my illustration for a cross-marketing version of Dante's Inferno, but where is the part where I get to have all the DLC?

I hope this sales model fails.

"My parents bought Dragon Age DLC, but all I got was this stupid t-shirt."

Yes, imbalanced weapons without a unique skin that you get immediately at the start of the game are a MUST HAVE to have fun with this game.

[clipped_wolf]

Bioware has the right to try to make money. If you buy the t-shirt for the DLC you're an idiot. Buy a t-shirt if you want a t-shirt. You can get more powerful items right now from mods at no additional cost.

Modifié par clipped_wolf, 11 décembre 2009 - 03:21 .

[Aesir Rising]

clipped wolf/ cheeselayer: Nothing I wrote should have indicated to you that it was a question about payment or quality of the content. My gripes have to do with what I listed in the top post. It's worth a read, especially if you're replying to the topic.

Dex1701 wrote...
What's wrong with not getting all the DLC?

I'm not going to hold your hand.  If you're really asking and aren't just trying to be argumentative, then you can learn a lot by asking yourself the inverse... What's wrong with getting all the DLC?

But you seem to think that there is something wrong with obtaining all the DLC.  I don't
get it.  It's like "Hey, I don't want more content, and what's more -  no one else can
have it."  Whereas I'm just saying, "Hey, make it easier or at least practical to let me get all the content."

Modifié par Aesir Rising, 11 décembre 2009 - 04:01 .

[ransompendragon]

I find these threads interesting and it is a worthwhile topic for discussion by gamers. In a previous version this is what I had to say
http://social.biowar...244071/6#247547


My hobby is PC gaming so I spend my little free time with that (and surfing the net obviously) and my money on games and hardware. But I don't have cable TV. I have the obligatory flat panel with surround sound equipment and a set of rabbit ears on top. I use the cheapest Netflix plan and see all the movies or TV I could want. I don't have a cell phone plan because every year I payed more for fewer features and features I was never going to use. I use a tracphone and make calls the once or twice a year I have to go out of town on business or to visit the folks. I don't play MMO's (MUD's were soooo addictive--but the price point was great).
The cost-benefit-value analysis is really a personal choice. When the choice becomes imbalanced for me I will quit paying--and it isn't about the money in my case--the perceived value decreases pretty rapidly. I have a boatload of games I haven't played and then there are used games, old games (good old games!) and of course the whole world of Linux and open source games. And nethack.
Will I buy the DLC? Probably. But I am holding off. With Oblivion I managed to wait until Knights of the Nine came out and got it all at once.

To expand a little
**As someone mentioned, it is a slippery slope and I point out some of my personal choices because I do think there is a dangerous movement towards NOT thinking and making choices about what we pay for. Cell phone is the best example for me because years ago I had an ATT plan with internet at a reasonable price for 2 phones and every year I got less features and had to pay more for it. Same with the cable tv model, get less, pay more. Nobody else I know has made the choice to not have cell phones and cable tv. Its hard to know if they even thought about it. That is the worrisome part.
Of course, if I don't quit reading these forums I will never finish my first playthrough!
cheers,
ransom

(bottled water anyone? its enchanted!)
 

[Kaosgirl]

Aesir Rising wrote...

clipped wolf/ cheeselayer: Nothing I wrote should have indicated to you that it was a question about payment or quality of the content. My gripes have to do with what I listed in the top post. It's worth a read, especially if you're replying to the topic.

Dex1701 wrote...
What's wrong with not getting all the DLC?

I'm not going to hold your hand.  If you're really asking and aren't just trying to be argumentative, then you can learn a lot by asking yourself the inverse... What's wrong with getting all the DLC?

But you seem to think that there is something wrong with obtaining all the DLC.  I don't
get it.  It's like "Hey, I don't want more content, and what's more -  no one else can
have it."  Whereas I'm just saying, "Hey, make it easier or at least practical to let me get all the content."

Goody rings hardly qualify as content.  


Honestly, this is like listening to those guys who walk into my store, buy a 6 pack of the cheapest beer I've got and then whine about not getting the free glass I'm supposed to give to people who buy the high-end scotch...

If we were talking about extra gameplay, like bonus quests or mini-expansions or something, then I could see your point.  But over a cheap piece of gear... meh. 

Modifié par Kaosgirl, 11 décembre 2009 - 04:16 .

[RetrOldSchool]

I can't see any problem with throwing in an extra promotional item with a t-shirt (that they were already selling).



If it was a new NPC, a new dungeon or anything else substantial I could understand a negative attitude towards it, but really, this is basically the same thing as the CE edition having a couple of extra DLC items comparing to the regular edition.



If Bioware starts doing this with real DLC episodes, then people can start the Evil Corporation Rant, but until then, this is getting oooooold.

[Soretooth]

This is just a marketing sceme to rake in more money from the younger "M" rated age group, IMO. I don't see anything wrong with it. If I want the T-shirt, then I'll buy it. If not, then I won't. The little DLC goodie is just a little enticement? Enticement! (Sorry...) I don't understand the bellyaching related to this post.

[Dex1701]

Aesir Rising wrote...

Dex1701 wrote...
What's wrong with not getting all the DLC?

I'm not going to hold your hand.  If you're really asking and aren't just trying to be argumentative, then you can learn a lot by asking yourself the inverse... What's wrong with getting all the DLC?

But you seem to think that there is something wrong with obtaining all the DLC.  I don't
get it.  It's like "Hey, I don't want more content, and what's more -  no one else can
have it."  Whereas I'm just saying, "Hey, make it easier or at least practical to let me get all the content."

No hand-holding necessary.  There's nothing wrong with getting all the DLC.  However, DA:O is a highly moddable game, and EA seems to be using little DLC items to cross-promote the game.  It's pretty likely that they're going to be offering a lot more promotional item DLC in the future.  PC modders are constantly adding things as well.  It's not a matter of "I don't want more content," as suggested in the strawman argument you presented, but rather, "why should I care if EA has a few 'happy meal trinkets' that they're giving away as cross-promotions through other outlets?  It's not vital game content that you're being deprived of.  It's the free keychain/pen/bottle opener/penlight/coffee mug  you get for signing up for a mailing list at a trade show. 

It's like saying, "I didn't attend the trade show, but I do buy your products, so I'm entitled to the free sun visor with your company's logo on it too."

If you really want items that magically appear in your inventory in the game why not just load up the toolset and go nuts?  If you really want Mayor McCheese's Mystic Ring of Lovin' It, though, you're just going to have to buy two Big Macs at a participating location.

Modifié par Dex1701, 11 décembre 2009 - 09:11 .

[heretica]

 I've been crying all over the place cause i can't get my dragon age t-shirt. 

How ungrateful of you. (just joking)

Anyways, I think the t-shirt+amulet thing is only available in NA. 

[Malal Belakor]

the shirts are ALL out of stock

;___;

i wanna a black shirt with the red dragon O_____O

[clipped_wolf]

Aesir, you seem to feel that all this DLC is part of a dishonest business model. I disagree. I don't like it--I found retailer exclusive items especially annoying--but I accept that Bioware will try to make money where they can.
You need to accept the fact that you will NEVER have all of the official DLC. It's already too late unless you pre-ordered multiple copies of the game from various retailers. Relax. Chill. Decide which, if any, of the DLC is worthy of even more of you money.

Modifié par clipped_wolf, 13 décembre 2009 - 11:33 .