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[lillitheris]

hot_heart wrote...

Would you consider it cheesy if Miranda saw and spoke to a mother and daughter, among a crowd, waiting to board a shuttle to Sanctuary? I'm not really going to be emphasising it, I am just worried about parallels with 'that stuff' in ME3. And that's the last thing I want.

Would she speak with anyone? If so, why? To blend in, maybe? Would she assume that the interlocutor has whatever this info is?

With Miranda, it seems as though it might be the child who spoke to her.

Although…my sense is the opposite of Lilivati’s here. ‘Looking back on it’ would probably be very high on the ‘that thing’ scale. Just a passing encounter not necessarily so.

[hot_heart]

It's more of a general inquiry, spurred by curiosity. There was a larger element to the exchange but I scrubbed that when I realised it created too many complications and ran a bit too contrary to what happens in the game.

I'll include a very rough excerpt of that particular section and anyone can feel free to offer their input.

     The throng of people stretches back a good three hundred feet, slowly shrinking as the front end gradually filters out into neater queues that snake aboard the shuttles. A mixture of frustration and desperation fills the air, while chatter expresses worry just as much as hope. With lined brows, beads of sweat on their skin, and
their feet shuffling in agitation, clearly, the congregation had been waiting for quite some time.

     I find the friendliest-looking person at the fringe, a woman with a young girl of about six, at whom to direct my questions. She doesn't appear to acknowledge my presence, too occupied with standing on tiptoes to peer over the crowd for some sign of what is happening before slowly inching further forward.

     "Excuse me," I say, loudly enough to overcome the noise, "where are these shuttles headed?"

     The woman clutches her daughter's hand a little tighter and briefly diverts some of her
attention my way.
     "Sanctum, I think," she replies with a less formal-sounding dialect. That can't be right. "Maybe Sanctuary. Salvation or...or something. Can't remember exactly what they said. We'll just be glad to get off this rock. Won't we sweetie?" She smiles at the little girl, who until now has been staring at me, quite distractingly so. Seeing the pure innocent naivety of a child during wartime is unsettling. And I don't have the heart nor the general inclination to tell them that Sanctuary won't keep them safe. Besides, I had the facility pegged as a way to scam the rich, who felt as if they had more to lose and would willingly pay their way. When did that change?

     Not wanting to distract myself any further, I thank the woman and depart, the child's inquisitive eyes following me the entire way.

Minor note: I probably shouldn't make Miranda so back and forth on the prepositions thing...

Modifié par hot_heart, 13 août 2012 - 03:34 .

[lillitheris]

I’ve to say…today’s chapter felt super good emotionally. For me, I mean. I’m all pumped up and stuff.

Dunno if the chapter itself is any good, or conveys anything it’s meant to, but I don’t care

[lillitheris]

@hot_heart: OK.

Yes, I think you’re treading very close to that line. Mind, you did prep us for the association, so it’s hard to say how your average reader will feel…

But you are highlighting how this child is somehow special. Why? There’re literally billions of them around…just on the Citadel Miranda would have seen hundreds and hundreds of children just as clueless/innocent as this little girl. I think that’s the main problem.

I personally might shy away from doing it, but If you do want to highlight this particular girl, you need to set her further apart from the others. Why does she catch Miranda’s eye and imagination?

(Yes, it’s really unfortunate that the game made it really hard to go this route…but on the other hand, the innocence of children etc. is a little cliché in its own right—though I hasten to say it can be done well—so perhaps looking for an alternative touch point instead of the girl could be better.)

Modifié par lillitheris, 13 août 2012 - 07:04 .

[MrStoob]

Lilivati wrote...

MrStoob wrote...

Re: writing about characters you didn't connect with.

I have similar problems with some characters. Garrus, Wrex and Tali barely appear in the ME1 arc of my fic beyond comic relief and the odd bravado moment. I found that, if I can't write anything constructive to write about a character, I just don't bother lol. It's not their story I want to tell anyway.

Is that defeatist? ^^

Nah.  It's your story.  You can highlight what (and who) you want.

That said, it can be an opportunity as well.  I was dreading writing Ash, but it turned out to be a good challenge for me, and while I still don't like her, I understand her a lot better now, which isn't nothing.

Sry, this is from a few pages back.

I THOUGHT I was going to have the same problem with Ash, but she's turned out to be one of my mainstay characters, interacting heavily with Shep/Liara.  One of my faves to write for now, with her and Liara becoming firm friends.

[hot_heart]

Thanks for the input, lilli!

I think (as in, I just sort of get in-character and GO!) I was writing it from the perspective that Miranda hasn't really stopped to consider the 'ordinary people' in among all the chaos; she's been so focused on the task at hand and avoided getting distracted by that. Now she's 'confronted' by a child, staring right at her.

Which reminds that I may be contradicting some of her earlier thoughts at the refugee camp on the Citadel from many chapters ago. Though, even then I think I was emphasising her cynical take on the situation.

Definitely food for thought, and I may play down what I have currently. Maybe not describe it as 'unsettling' but something softer.

Thanks again.

Modifié par hot_heart, 13 août 2012 - 08:28 .

[Drussius]

lillitheris wrote...

@hot_heart: OK.

*snip*

But you are highlighting how this child is somehow special. Why? There’re literally billions of them around…just on the Citadel Miranda would have seen hundreds and hundreds of children just as clueless/innocent as this little girl. I think that’s the main problem.

*snip*

Sorry I don't have anything to add to the discussion on your passage, hot_heart, but your fic is on my list to be read in the future, so I skipped it to avoid possible spoilers.

However, I never even considered how the introduction of a child might be perceived by readers because of "that stuff" and I just included one in Chapter 10 of my story, though in a markedly different context. I'm going to be a little annoyed if that stupid starbrat has people pointing at the kid in my story and groaning... It's a bit-part character intended only to provide a realistic way to get a piece of information to one of the characters. 

[lillitheris]

hot_heart wrote...

I think (as in, I just sort of get in-character and GO!) I was writing it from the perspective that Miranda hasn't really stopped to consider the 'ordinary people' in among all the chaos; she's been so focused on the task at hand and avoided getting distracted by that. Now she's 'confronted' by a child, staring right at her.

Yeah, if you go this route, then bringing this aspect forward more sounds good.  Emphasizing all those others—and carefully trying to avoid establishing this child as any kind of a symbol thereof, or even a proxy for the emotion—is an appealing idea to me.


@Drussius: Yeah, it’s hard to say how I’d perceive it coming to it without the knowledge; still, I’d say this particular passage has strong similarities—especially since the additional explanation fades those parts into the background.

Modifié par lillitheris, 13 août 2012 - 09:47 .

[hot_heart]

Drussius wrote...
However, I never even considered how the introduction of a child might be perceived by readers because of "that stuff" and I just included one in Chapter 10 of my story, though in a markedly different context. I'm going to be a little annoyed if that stupid starbrat has people pointing at the kid in my story and groaning... It's a bit-part character intended only to provide a realistic way to get a piece of information to one of the characters. 

I think it's more the way they're introduced rather than the fact that they are. In my case, it might seem a bit sudden to have a character start noticing one particular child when they must have seen many before. Though, the angle I was coming from was that Miranda operates with her blinkers on, filtering out stuff like that if possible and only now does it become apparent, even for a brief moment.

It sounds like the one in yours has a 'function' beyond evoking emotion or offering perspective, so I can't see it being a problem. I just have a habit of trying to go 'deeper' with my writing, even if it is a little risky.

[Drussius]

Ah, I gotcha. Having skipped past your passage, I didn't have a frame of reference for the way the kid was used. I guess I could see it as being out of place given that Miranda has probably seen thousands of kids. In my case, it's the first time the particular character has ever spoken to a human child, and is just trying to get a little information.

I really need to catch up on my reading and get into some new stories. That way I can be a little more constructive here. Apologies for my vagaries.

[Spiritwolf1]

hot_heart wrote...

Drussius wrote...
However, I never even considered how the introduction of a child might be perceived by readers because of "that stuff" and I just included one in Chapter 10 of my story, though in a markedly different context. I'm going to be a little annoyed if that stupid starbrat has people pointing at the kid in my story and groaning... It's a bit-part character intended only to provide a realistic way to get a piece of information to one of the characters. 

I think it's more the way they're introduced rather than the fact that they are. In my case, it might seem a bit sudden to have a character start noticing one particular child when they must have seen many before. Though, the angle I was coming from was that Miranda operates with her blinkers on, filtering out stuff like that if possible and only now does it become apparent, even for a brief moment.

It sounds like the one in yours has a 'function' beyond evoking emotion or offering perspective, so I can't see it being a problem. I just have a habit of trying to go 'deeper' with my writing, even if it is a little risky.

 I see no reason why you can't introduce the child, if it's an important peice of information. It's no different from looking at a plaque and commenting on it, or a particular car, or a statue or anything. Some times people just noticed things that catch their interest for no particular reason. I know I have on many occasions. Or even yet, picking up on a accent and commenting on it. It might not mean much in the grand scheme of the story, but it does give insight on your character.

[Sweawm]

Finally decided what to do about my earlier problem (See page #159), about including a multiple ending, based on the fact that the story could swing both ways from the last chapter.
I mulled it over, decided it wasn't right, considering they'll probably open up the latest chapter or skip to Epilogue B instead of A perhaps.
I then considered extending the story to forty chapters, then having the alternate ending as an Epilogue. I decided that wasn't good either.

I've finally gotten up to the finale and realized that I just didn't just do well enough the entire story to make the conclusion well foreshadowed or even worth while. I've written up the entire ending, but I don't feel like its the ending the reader deserves or even expects. I've finally come down to the decision that I could only take one ending, so I chose. Now? I think I should scrap the original ending because it really doesn't make that much sense.

I actually had an ending planned in which the result would be optimistic, opportunity for a squeal and a great twist and closure on the a plot that's been hidden all throughout the fic, but in writing that, I forgot to write how I'm supposed to get there in this story. Now I feel like I've got a headache and writer's block.

Modifié par Sweawm, 14 août 2012 - 01:55 .

[Lilivati]

Sorry I'm just getting back to this now, long long day.

I honestly did not even think of Starkid when presented with the idea of Miranda encountering a child. I DID think of Miranda's own innate cynicism, how appalled she was by Sanctuary, and her fertility problems. I also (incorrectly, as it turns out) read it as "Miranda finds out about Sanctuary's existence from this mother and child" and thought that could be a powerful moment when she looks back after realizing what Sanctuary truly is- recalling how she just let them go, thinking they were idiots for wasting their money on this.

But I honestly don't see Starkid as a child either. As Starkid exists in the game, it's an AI entity that predates the reapers themselves and appears to Shepard as a child, rather than actually being childlike in any way. I truly believe this is simply how Shepard perceives this entity rather than a form of its own choosing, given how Starkid's voice is a mix of male and female Shepard's (and extrapolated is being heard with Shepard's mind rather than ears).

The analogy was heavy-handed (perhaps too much so), but I enjoyed the real kid who appears at the beginning of ME3 and the way Shepard was haunted by him throughout the game. Even if you've seen a thousand kids they remain a great symbol for fragility, hope, or in this case, loss. It would be a real shame if Starkid overshadowed that in every form thereafter. But I get that it's not everyone's cut of tea. For that matter, the mother herself could be symbolic- trying blindly to do what's best for her family, and failing so spectacularly through no fault of her own.

A person doesn't have to be special in an absolute sense to be special or noticeable to a protagonist at a particular point in time. When I'm walking down a street, I sure don't notice everybody, but I sure don't notice nobody, either.

As an aside, I REALLY like the idea of Miranda being confronted with something that takes her out of "mission mindset"- regardless of what it is.

[Sweawm]

Sat down, got over my despair and finished writing out the finale, publishing the 39th Chapter. I eventually came back around, and made it my decision to give only one ending in Chapter 40 with the Epilogue giving an alternative set of events if the final chapter went the other way.

From this, a good piece of advice is this: write out both your final chapter and your second final chapter before publishing either. That way, you can release the finale just a single (Or two) day after the reader being left waiting on the cliffhanger, instead of risking waiting some significant time for you to come around and type, edit and publish the chapter. I did this here because I'm unrealible at getting things done.

Modifié par Sweawm, 14 août 2012 - 06:54 .

[lillitheris]

@Lilivati: for me (and, I suspect, for many others) the problem isn’t the Catalyst, but the I SAID FEEL SAD DAMNIT railroading of emotion toward the human child in the beginning and throughout. (Edit: not that the Catalyst is helping, mind.)

It sounds like it worked OK for you, which is great. Also, CSR/PTSD doesn’t really ask what you’d like to be haunted by, but even still, it’s so contrived for me. Some say it should have been the VVictim, or the Li, or whatever, but in truth none of those would have satisfied everyone. The LI would have been safest…but personally I think it should have been handled by showing Shepard tossing and turning, eventually waking, then talking about “those dreams” to whomever—or just muttering it to themselves. This would leave the content either completely up to the player, or it could pivot so that Shepard can reply kid/Vv/LI and then that could be used for the twoother sequences. Or something. Anything, really.

It’s an unfortunate aspect of the ME3: The John Shepard Story motif they went with. Forgot it was a game, not a movie.

Apologies, typing on the pad.

Modifié par lillitheris, 14 août 2012 - 07:03 .

[Seracen]

@ Sweawm: Congrats mate! I'm glad you've managed to work through that issue. Well done on finishing your work.

@ both lil's: I honestly think this could have been an amazing tie back to the first game. Rather than having the starbrat, it could have been a person from Shepard's past, depending on what background you picked...

Colonists get Talitha, Spacers get Zabaleta, Earthers kinda get screwed in this idea, however...
War Hero's get Elanos Haliat (although most ppl would think it was Saren at this point), Survivor's get Toombs, and Ruthless get Major Kyle...

Hmm, perhaps this is a bad idea. Still, they could also have gone with a glowing orb, a la ME1, and taken the ever-suggested fade-into-Harbinger approach.

@ hot_heart: I don't think the girl is a bad idea. Honestly, as much as these characters have been through by the end of 3 games, I'd not be surprised by any number of personality quirks or inconsistencies. Having said that, perhaps have the child be somewhat headstrong, something which grabs Miranda's attention and maybe makes her think of her own past.

EDIT: wow BSN, really? you won't allow me to use a synonym for "headstrong" that involves a synonym for "rooster?" huh...

Modifié par Seracen, 14 août 2012 - 07:25 .

[hot_heart]

Thanks for the input, people! I did a bit of tweaking yesterday and I think, with the help, I've managed to emphasise the elements I was looking to originally. Funny thing is, I had never imagined including something like that in the chapter as I first envisioned it. It wasn't even supposed to be that long a chapter but now it's over 2k words and probably 2/3 done. Got into writing 'zen mode' last night, stayed up later than planned and overslept this morning. Hooray...

The idea with the child (and mother) was never supposed to be a hit-you-in-the-face 'oh, the innocent people whyyyy' moment that would haunt her, since Oriana already represents that to some extent, but more of a touching point in terms of when Miranda does discover what Sanctuary really is. There is some of the infertility angle buried in there but I'm not sure how much of a place it has in my story (or that I'd be any good writing anything like that, especially apropos of nothing).

Modifié par hot_heart, 14 août 2012 - 08:50 .

[hot_heart]

Oh, and I'd been meaning to ask. Has anyone written a post-Destroy-ending fic where Shepard keeps quiet about what happened with the Crucible? As in, hides the fact that there were other options that they could have taken beyond destroying the geth and EDI.

Possibly there's not much story content there, and it might not fit with who Shepard is; all the choices involved sacrifices, and Shepard would be open about what transpired and what had to be done. Plus, I think a lot of post-ending stories are meant for writing happy endings rather than giving poor old Shepard even more trauma. I just find it an interesting angle.

[lillitheris]

Seracen wrote...

@ both lil's: I honestly think this could have been an amazing tie back to the first game. Rather than having the starbrat, it could have been a person from Shepard's past, depending on what background you picked...

Colonists get Talitha, Spacers get Zabaleta, Earthers kinda get screwed in this idea, however...
War Hero's get Elanos Haliat (although most ppl would think it was Saren at this point), Survivor's get Toombs, and Ruthless get Major Kyle...

Hmm, perhaps this is a bad idea. Still, they could also have gone with a glowing orb, a la ME1, and taken the ever-suggested fade-into-Harbinger approach.

I don’t really like the implications of he Catalyst being able to pick such memories from Shepard’s head, whether kid or some more meaningful person.

I’d rather have it just be Avina. I think that would’ve been the most powerful—and simultaneously least controversial—option. Or perhaps a speaking Keeper.

[lillitheris]

hot_heart wrote...

Oh, and I'd been meaning to ask. Has anyone written a post-Destroy-ending fic where Shepard keeps quiet about what happened with the Crucible? As in, hides the fact that there were other options that they could have taken beyond destroying the geth and EDI.

Funny you should ask. I just included this passage in chapter 32…but I won’t tell more, yet :

:

"You'll see, Shepard," Miranda said curtly as Liara turned away and headed for a desk sitting in one corner of the room. "Now, focus…look at me. Hey! Focus," the woman repeated, softly turning Shepard by the jaw to face herself. "What's the last thing you remember?"

Shepard struggled for a moment, flicking away recollections that must have been dreams. "On the Presidium…I had…activated the weapon," she said carefully, "and was trying to get back to the lift, but there was an explosion. No, wait…first I think the weapon worked, there was a purple…force of some kind. And then an explosion."

:

Edit: although I should also point out that because of a certain action earlier in the story, at this time it’s unknown whether EDI and the geth really are altogether destroyed.

Modifié par lillitheris, 14 août 2012 - 09:05 .

[hot_heart]

Purple?

[lillitheris]

hot_heart wrote...

Purple?

Or pink if you’re an asari…

[Spiritwolf1]

MrStoob wrote...

Lilivati wrote...

MrStoob wrote...

Re: writing about characters you didn't connect with.

I have similar problems with some characters. Garrus, Wrex and Tali barely appear in the ME1 arc of my fic beyond comic relief and the odd bravado moment. I found that, if I can't write anything constructive to write about a character, I just don't bother lol. It's not their story I want to tell anyway.

Is that defeatist? ^^

Nah.  It's your story.  You can highlight what (and who) you want.

That said, it can be an opportunity as well.  I was dreading writing Ash, but it turned out to be a good challenge for me, and while I still don't like her, I understand her a lot better now, which isn't nothing.

Sry, this is from a few pages back.

I THOUGHT I was going to have the same problem with Ash, but she's turned out to be one of my mainstay characters, interacting heavily with Shep/Liara.  One of my faves to write for now, with her and Liara becoming firm friends.

Funny thing was I did the same thing. I was never going to have her in the story, cause I really didn't like her, but it was nice to let her and Liara finally come to some semblance of an understanding and it worked

[hot_heart]

lillitheris wrote...
Edit: although I should also point out that because of a certain action earlier in the story, at this time it’s unknown whether EDI and the geth really are altogether destroyed.

Oh, yeah, also some people opt to tweak the endings a little, avoiding that element. And I don't blame them.

lillitheris wrote...
Or pink if you’re an asari…

OK, now you've lost me.

Modifié par hot_heart, 14 août 2012 - 10:27 .

[Cmdr. Ken Shepard]

Hi all, Not sure this is the place for this, but figured if anything this is the place. I've done writing in the past but nothing "creative" like fanfic so to say I'm a noob at it is being nice. Have some stuff I've jotted down but nothing I ultimately feel deserves to be added as my own personal epilogue. Would anyone with experience be willing to aid in advice and some help?