9962 réponses à ce sujet

[lillitheris]

Education ≠ conformity. (James Joyce, by the by, studied English in college…)

[Seracen]

Personally, I feel that studying to write is like studying music. If you have natural talent, and figured it out yourself, you have just as valid a claim as any "professional." In my opinion, however, taking the classes WILL make you better.

Jim Butcher, one of my fave authors, wrote about how he feared the pablum that would be created if he followed such a "cookie cutter" method of writing, but he did so.

The first book he wrote in this fashion was what propelled his books to the best seller list.

So yeah, I think there's something to be said about taking classes in writing. It's not the end-all-be-all, but it can certainly train you to have a critical eye.

On the other hand, I'm just writing for fun, so I didn't really take more than a few small writing courses. I still like to use the worksheets to help flesh out stories, even if I'm no "professional."

On that note, I think many of the writers in this forum have at least enough writing chops to be published. For instance, I'd read all you peoples' stuff over Stephanie Meyer any day of the week, and be happy to do so.

What am I saying?  That's what I do already!!!  Why haven't several of you started making millions yet!?!?!  Get started darn it!!!! 

Modifié par Seracen, 15 août 2012 - 10:57 .

[Seracen]

 PS: lilitheris: thought I'd mention my amusement at your sig.  I see "FShep/Liara + everybody" followed by the "copulation" line, and my mind presents me a with a harem ending the likes of which I've not seen since Tenchi Muyo...so thanks for that! 

PPS: any of you start making millions, you better share with the group!!!  I love cheddar!!!

Modifié par Seracen, 15 août 2012 - 11:02 .

[fluffywalrus]

Honestly, Finnegan's Wake is probably the most annoying thing I've ever had to read. It's like the Jackson ****** of literature. Taking the characters that make up words and painting the page chaotically (lots of portmanteau), without rhyme or reason aside from reducing language and prose to its basest form, showing how malleable and frail it really is, but showing its potential at the same time I suppose. It's not a narrative, it's not a story, aside from a mockery of tradition and established rules in creative writing...like he turned language on its head and made it itself into poetry. I guess.

If anything, it taught me that rules and framework exist for a reason. Much like visual art, written art can be just as rebellious and meaningless and lacking of boundaries and rules. Finnegan's Wake is as much a shining example as a warning of what happens when you toss so many rules and building blocks, etc. to the side. Like I said, it's like a Jackson ******. There's nothing to take in aside from the argument made through the means of its creation.

So, uh, yeah. Conformity isn't always the best route, but a lot of standards are there as guides for a reason. Experimental methods can often open up the field of acceptable options and standards, but generally...if you want someone to read your work, you'll need some anchor to established standards, which isn't a bad thing. A little imagination and you can spice things up nicely. As Icyflare stated, maintaining a critical eye is pretty important. Falling into patterns of writing can lead to less creativity in your storytelling, and can bore readers who learn the formula of how you write. Makes you predictable, and likely results in poor, stale writing.

[Spiritwolf1]

All these learned people. I'm impressed, I'm one of those didn't like school people, did the college thing graduated got a job. English supposed to be my first language, but sometimes I wonder (As seen in my story). I read the Outsiders and 1984 in school. You guys are the best. I love reading your dicussions.

[Drussius]

I have to object to the idea that being taught to write is essential to good writing. I know that's not precisely what anyone has said here, and I may be biased since I didn't have the luxury of attending college, but I think I've managed to develop a modicum of skill all on my own, with nothing but imagination and a healthy taste for reading. Are there areas were I could improve? Absolutely! But did I have to attend writing classes to get where I am? Not a single one.

I think the key to being a good writer is imagination. While anyone I suppose could learn how to write, the do's and don'ts, proper formatting, spelling, grammar, etc., in school, without imagination, there's not much point to it. The most technically sound writer in the world wouldn't be able to hold my interest in a story if they didn't have the imagination to put together a plot with some imagination. And you just can't teach imagination. Some people have it, and others just don't.

[Lilivati]

I didn't study writing in school. I studied astronomy. On the one hand I was exposed to a world that is not accessible to the amateur as well as excellent training and sources of knowledge. I can honestly say I learned more about the subject than I would have been able to teach myself. Having the personal attention of an expert in the field is legitimately different from reading a book. On the other, I no longer do much of it because I hated grad school more than is really reasonable to hate anything.

I love to write. I feel like my writing could benefit from more experienced eyes than my own, and from being forced to write, and write publicly at that, outside my comfort zone. Taking classes would give me those things. On the other, I'm worried it would make me as jaded and closed as I now feel towards the world of academic science.

I certainly think it is possible to succeed without formal training. But I also feel it's wrong to be disdainful of said training, as if the establishment is so toxic that its students are rendered incapable of individual thought or fresh ideas, because this is so evidently not the case when you look at professional writers.

Here's the thing about the Stephanie Meyers of the world, too- you can argue that the writing has no artistic merit and you'd probably be right (I'd at least agree with you). But she has the formula for the kind of story she is writing down to a science, and she did it completely by intuition. Millions of people have read and yes, loved, her work. She found a story that resonated very well with her target audience. That ain't nothing. Formulas WORK.

[Obsidian Gryphon]

I suddenly have a dateline.   Now I'm trying to finish up before GW2 hits this month. I've a feeling I'm going to be swimming in that game for most of my time that I'd probably forget about the fanfic..  

[Drussius]

I should add before I get the response I feel somehow is coming... I don't think attending classes for writing is a bad thing. It certainly would help a writer along on the path toward mastering the craft. Expanding one's knowledge on a subject can only ever be a good thing. But I don't believe that school can teach the most important element (at least for fiction writers), which is the imagination. And I don't think schooling is a requirement for good writing. Writing, like music and a number of other fields, is one of those things that can be done and done well without formal training.

[fluffywalrus]

Drussius wrote...

I have to object to the idea that being taught to write is essential to good writing. I know that's not precisely what anyone has said here, and I may be biased since I didn't have the luxury of attending college, but I think I've managed to develop a modicum of skill all on my own, with nothing but imagination and a healthy taste for reading. Are there areas were I could improve? Absolutely! But did I have to attend writing classes to get where I am? Not a single one.

I think the key to being a good writer is imagination. While anyone I suppose could learn how to write, the do's and don'ts, proper formatting, spelling, grammar, etc., in school, without imagination, there's not much point to it. The most technically sound writer in the world wouldn't be able to hold my interest in a story if they didn't have the imagination to put together a plot with some imagination. And you just can't teach imagination. Some people have it, and others just don't.

I pretty much agree. Education in writing isn't necessary, but it can be very helpful in expanding a writer's abilities. However, like you said, the most technically sound writer might write works that are void of the creativity that keeps people interested in the story.

Kind of like how I can appreciate the technical talent of free jazz players, but still insist that it's not exactly listenable.

Creativity is what helps build interesting and accessible stories, and creativity is pretty much tied to one's imagination, really. Without that...it's easy to fall into easy cliches and archetypes for answers, and IMO that can only get a person so far. The basics of writing can be learned. It's creativity that takes the writing to a different level.

Modifié par fluffywalrus, 15 août 2012 - 11:55 .

[Spiritwolf1]

fluffywalrus wrote...

Drussius wrote...

I have to object to the idea that being taught to write is essential to good writing. I know that's not precisely what anyone has said here, and I may be biased since I didn't have the luxury of attending college, but I think I've managed to develop a modicum of skill all on my own, with nothing but imagination and a healthy taste for reading. Are there areas were I could improve? Absolutely! But did I have to attend writing classes to get where I am? Not a single one.

I think the key to being a good writer is imagination. While anyone I suppose could learn how to write, the do's and don'ts, proper formatting, spelling, grammar, etc., in school, without imagination, there's not much point to it. The most technically sound writer in the world wouldn't be able to hold my interest in a story if they didn't have the imagination to put together a plot with some imagination. And you just can't teach imagination. Some people have it, and others just don't.

I pretty much agree. Education in writing isn't necessary, but it can be very helpful in expanding a writer's abilities. However, like you said, the most technically sound writer might write works that are void of the creativity that keeps people interested in the story.

Kind of like how I can appreciate the technical talent of free jazz players, but still insist that it's not exactly listenable.

Creativity is what helps build interesting and accessible stories, and creativity is pretty much tied to one's imagination, really. Without that...it's easy to fall into easy cliches and archetypes for answers, and IMO that can only get a person so far. The basics of writing can be learned. It's creativity that takes the writing to a different level.

I agree with Dru completely. When I said I went to college, it certainly was not for any kind of writting. My job although needs imagination does not allow for it when it comes to writing reports. Just the facts. My gramar sucks because in Canada they decide not to teach it in High School unless you in advanced classes and I have never been advanced anything. I am a geek in company of those that probably once beat up geeks. I can't show anyone my story, not at work cause labels are huge.  I can't get advise cause no one I know has the time and I cant afford nor do I have time for writing classes. I am not technical in any stretch of the imagination, (those who read my story will notice the absence of any kind of technobabble) I usually don't understand most of it anyway.

What I would like to think I do have going for me is imagination. It's probably the biggest part of story telling. Fanfiction.net is probably the first time I have ever let anyone read my stuff and I am happy with the results. I am also not saying I have natural talent either cause I don't.

I personally think that one should just write, whatever they want and whatever they want. Write it out and have fun with it. It doesn't matter your level of edumication or age or sophistication. Just have fun, cause that is what makes it all important.

[Drussius]

Haha! Totally different subject, but I'm thrilled and need to tell someone.

I just found out that my magic has worked out and netted me enough financial breathing room to keep internet access (barring any further disasters), though not in it's current cable-modem form, and to let my daughters keep their cell phones! Can't wait to see their reaction to THAT little piece of news when they get home on friday...

[hot_heart]

Gah, failure. So close to getting this chapter done and published but it really needs that one final pass. Now it's 1am and I need sleeeeep.

Oh, well, 'fresh' eyes tomorrow evening should do it quick enough. Then I might actually get to play the Phoenix Vanguard I unlocked the other day, and start Iron Brigade...

[Icyflare]

lillitheris wrote...

Education ≠ conformity. (James Joyce, by the by, studied English in college…)

Sorry if I implied that. I certainly didn't mean it that way, and I 'll take more care with unintended implications in the future. I was just making a point about people conditioning you to respond only in one way and used classes as an example without offering any rebuttals to the story on my end. My bad.

What I had essentially meant to say was following "rules" without paying attention to how and why they apply does not lead you to improve as....well, anything. Especially if they come from sources that are generally assumed to be prestigous like universities/colleges. The value of knowing very well about what you know is more important than its source, which is a point related to fainmaca's post in which he said that in many of the writing job postings he came across, a post-secondary degree of some kind was required.

You certainly don't need a degree to write well. Having one doesn't guarantee that you will, but the implications of job postings requiring one (in English or Creative Writing, I assume) indicates to me the companies listing those postings view a degree as a sort of safety net for the quality of a writer applying. It might also be a lazy way of filtering the application pool, because there would be many more people vying for the job if that requirement wasn't in place.

The explanation on Finnegan's Wake was really for those who never read the book or have forgotten about it until I brought it up again I hadn't read it any of in my classes and thought there might be others who hadn't either.

Modifié par Icyflare, 16 août 2012 - 12:33 .

[Spiritwolf1]

Drussius wrote...

Haha! Totally different subject, but I'm thrilled and need to tell someone.

I just found out that my magic has worked out and netted me enough financial breathing room to keep internet access (barring any further disasters), though not in it's current cable-modem form, and to let my daughters keep their cell phones! Can't wait to see their reaction to THAT little piece of news when they get home on friday...

That means more story woot woot

[hot_heart]

Oh, I don't know about anyone else here but first-person, present tense, for all its benefits, really does seem to limit you in regards to vocabulary, as well as how you can portray things.

Maybe I'm just stupid...

[Obsidian Gryphon]

Drussius wrote...

Haha! Totally different subject, but I'm thrilled and need to tell someone.

I just found out that my magic has worked out and netted me enough financial breathing room to keep internet access (barring any further disasters), though not in it's current cable-modem form, and to let my daughters keep their cell phones! Can't wait to see their reaction to THAT little piece of news when they get home on friday...

Grats.   Now you can write with some peace of mind.

[Drussius]

^ Agreed. While first person presents some interesting storytelling opportunities, I don't think I'd ever have the will to actually use it because it forces you to omit certain types of statements and information.

Then again, when I started writing I used 3rd person omniscient perspective constantly, and somewhere along the line shifted to a 3rd person limited perspective. So maybe I actually am slowly moving toward the elusive 1st person format...

Edit: A response was ninjaed in before me!

Modifié par Drussius, 16 août 2012 - 12:21 .

[Icyflare]

Drussius wrote...
And I don't think schooling is a requirement for good writing. Writing, like music and a number of other fields, is one of those things that can be done and done well without formal training.

Which is why an English degree is generally considered one of the most useless degrees you could have for netting a job after graduation. It's right up there with Art History and Visual Arts.

These areas are skills that anyone can develop on their own, given enough time and dedication whereas degrees that require specific training from outside sources are, I think, more likely to land you a job, like engineering or medicine. I'm sure you can probably teach yourself medicine and surgery too, but I'd be very dubious to go to a doctor who's not certified by any association.

Also, congrats, Drussius! Now, you've got absolutely no excuse for not updating for the next 10 months

Modifié par Icyflare, 16 août 2012 - 12:22 .

[Drussius]

What? You mean I just negated my excuses for laziness? Uh... What I meant was... I bought myself a week! Yeah, that's it... A week...

[Icyflare]

hot_heart wrote...

Oh, I don't know about anyone else here but first-person, present tense, for all its benefits, really does seem to limit you in regards to vocabulary, as well as how you can portray things.

Maybe I'm just stupid...

I think it's just the structural limitations of using first person in itself. There are a couple of disadvantages inherent in the tense that does restrict what you can do:

1. The narrator can't know other people's thoughts.
2. Narrator can't know where others are or what they're doing when s/he is not there.
3. Narrator can often be mistaken about other people.
4. Often mistaken about him/herself
5. Difficult for him/her to get more than a partial grasp on an objective truth
6. Narrator may be concealing something.

On the other hand, there are also advantages to writing in first person too. They are:

1. The narrator can't know other people's thoughts.
2. Narrator can't know where others are or what they're doing when s/he is not there.
3. Narrator can often be mistaken about other people.
4. Often mistaken about him/herself
5. Difficult for him/her to get more than a partial grasp on an objective truth
6. Narrator may be concealing something.

It's great for really bringing immediacy of the situation into play as well as allowing your readers a perspective to instantly connect with. You can portray a lot of drama in the things that narrator is uncertain/does not know about. It can also be a pain if you're writing from a perspective you're not too familiar/comfortable with, like a rice farmer in 200 AD, China.

Modifié par Icyflare, 16 août 2012 - 12:32 .

[fluffywalrus]

Drussius wrote...

Haha! Totally different subject, but I'm thrilled and need to tell someone.

I just found out that my magic has worked out and netted me enough financial breathing room to keep internet access (barring any further disasters), though not in it's current cable-modem form, and to let my daughters keep their cell phones! Can't wait to see their reaction to THAT little piece of news when they get home on friday...

Hooray! Isn't it wonderful to be frugal? My friends make fun of me all the time about it, but it's a fantastic feeling to have a degree of economic freedom in times of economic uncertainty. Bravo, Drussius!

[Drussius]

LOL. Thanks. Not really happy about letting go of certain luxuries, but it's preferable to being without internet for the better part of a year. And now, if I buckle down and concentrate, I'll have chapter 12 of my story finished so I can publish Chapter 8 in the morning!

Incidentally, if a starship exploded in orbit around a planet, would it be visible in the dusk sky on the planet's surface? Waffling on this point. Not exactly critical to my story, but still...

[Drussius]

And a second incidentally... Does anyone ever feel bad when you publish a chapter in which not much happens? I mean, the scenes I have are important for other things they set up, but chapter 11 of my story really didn't have a lot going on. Just a few conversations, a little minor drama, and lots of information about a certain pair of prototypes... which still have no name.