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[fainmaca]

MrStoob wrote...

As there's a couple of Miri fans in our group and we're on the subject so... do the Miri fans have any particular thoughts on Henry? I've pushed his involvement with Cerberus up and made him far worse (I think) than the game portrays as far as his (now four...) daughters are concerned. Twisted would not come close ha!

Not particularly a Miridian, but I hope you don't mind me contributing my thoughts to the matter.
1) Cerberus:
I tend to view Henry as a substantial part of Cerberus' financial backing, wealthy and influential in all the right places that TIM would be interested in. TBH, before ME3 I thought that would be all there was to it. I expected him to turn up in ME3 in some fashion, with Cerberus using a now captive Miranda and information on Oriana's whereabouts to reobtain his support (remember he pulled funding after they took Miranda in). One thing I would say is that his backing couldn't have been all that vital to Cerberus, otherwise they wouldn't have chosen a single girl over his continued support, so Miranda must be worth more than his contribution to Cerberus was. That's why I can't see any sense in the idea that he's the 'third head' of the organisation, or even really in BW writing him to be in charge of a sizeable Cerberus operation.

2) His offspring:
I'd say he's not particularly twisted, just unfeeling towards Miranda and any of her siblings. They're his creations, but he doesn't have the value for them that a parent has. To him, they're more like financial investments. He's waiting for one to pay off just as he anticipates, but is not too upset by those that don't pay out as he wishes. When writing him, I'd say heneeds to be shown as more concerned about the technology and information that makes them and enhances them than their actual welfare. I wouldn't portray him as evil, but rather would endeavour to make it clear he has no empathy for those he harms, such as Miri.

[fainmaca]

Dispassionate! I think that's the word I'm looking for.

[hot_heart]

Yeah, I'm pretty much with fainmaca.

Though, to be honest, I don't think BioWare put much thought into it besides the basics. That's why a lot is vague and, therefore, open to tweaking how you see fit. If you wanted to make him more heavily involved with Cerberus, I suppose that could work.

I guess it's a matter of what form you want the antagonism to take. I always saw it as a more psychological one over anything quite overt, so I was very disappointed to see him in ME3 and find the resolution being 'thrown out of a window'.

[enayasoul]

Some very good points brought up by Fainmaca. Very much agree with.

In my fic, Mr. Lawson uses peoples to his advantage because, in his mind, everyone has a price. They can be bought. He will exploit any situation for his advantage. For his long-term goal. He doesn't see his creations as "daughters" or "son" for example in my fic. They are merely his 'investments' and will do whatever he wants with them to achieve 'his' goals. They will obey his rules and do whatever he says when and where he tells them to do something. So yeah, he's emotionally abusive to his 'subjects' and pretends to care by lavishing them with gifts. He wants perfection and will make them work hard at achieving it. And perhaps never acknowledges when they do achieve some level of excellence. He's pychologically damaging them... and ultimately why he fails to control them. Miranda rebells having had enough.

Does this make him evil? Does it make the reader really hate him and sympathize more with what Miranda had to endure? I hope so... Thoughts?

[AustereLemur799]

Unfortunately I can't weigh-in on Miranda as much as I'd like to but I, for one, think this is a really interesting discussion - I love the way we analyse further beyond what the games gave us.

I understand that you guys say that Henry Lawson sees his creations as investments rather than affectionate attachments - I can certainly imagine him poring over the perfect genetic concoctions in a lab somewhere, which might be kind of creepy .

Miranda and Oriana's tragic origins and reasons for being aside; I'm actually interested in the kind of person Henry is to be able to do the things he did. I just don't buy into wealth and a legacy and all that. When watching variations of the final cutscene at Sanctuary; I truly believe that a part of him does care about his children. I think he thinks that he's too far beyond redemption and that there's no way back. I know that everyone wants to hate him and, granted, he is a monster; but I think that he's also a tragic character. I think that there's something really insular about making his own children which are his and his alone and not sharing them with another parent. Either he's a total control freak or he has some really bad insecurities. 

Then again I think that TIM is a tragic character too. ME3 really messed things up for me - in ME2 he actually cared about a real purpose.

Another thing that I may have missed: I thought that in ME2, TIM had nothing to do with Miranda's father. Was he lying to her and receiving Henry's backing the whole time? Or did he establish relations with Henry due to desperate times in ME3? I'm also kind of annoyed that Miranda's loyalty mission in ME2 amounted to nothing because Henry found Oriana anyway. Was that also TIM's fault?

I guess TIM and Henry are a match made in heaven, but I also know that nothing's ever that black and white - there are always shades of grey.

[hot_heart]

AustereLemur799 wrote...
When watching variations of the final cutscene at Sanctuary; I truly believe that a part of him does care about his children. I think he thinks that he's too far beyond redemption and that there's no way back. I know that everyone wants to hate him and, granted, he is a monster; but I think that he's also a tragic character. I think that there's something really insular about making his own children which are his and his alone and not sharing them with another parent. Either he's a total control freak or he has some really bad insecurities. 

That's actually an interesting take. I'm not entirely sure it holds up to scrutiny (not saying it doesn't though!) but it would've been an interesting route to take. I'm all for deeper, multi-faceted characters.

I suppose it would be that he doesn't know how to show love to his daughters and is overprotective perhaps because of how they were created or just insensitivity. I think it would involve Miranda misinterpreting or lying too much for it to be truly plausible, however.

For instance, there's:
"He didn't want a daughter; he wanted a dynasty."
"My father invested a great deal in his dynasty. It wasn't a matter of just leaving. I knew he would continue to pursue his...investments."
"If you knew my father, you would understand. I wasn't the first one he made. I was only the first he kept. I was brought up with no friends, pushed to meet impossible demands. I wasn't a daughter to him. I was...I don't know what I was."

If anyone happens to be interested in Miranda dialogue, someone made a web version of all the conversation wheels from ME2 here. I've found it useful for finding the character's 'voice'.

Modifié par hot_heart, 07 février 2013 - 11:03 .

[AustereLemur799]

The thing for me is that Miranda's words in ME2 are too relatable to anyone. I mean, I could say that my parents wanted a dynasty and pushed me to get good grades and this, that and the other; that they don't stop to ask me how my day was or how I am; they only care about what revenue (wealth, heirs or otherwise) I can generate for them. The fact is that that is the truth for a lot people today; children can be tools and weapons more than gifts or treasures. I have friends who were pushed relentlessly to meet the demands of their parents, at the sacrifice of their personal happiness. I was more fortunate in that circumstance, but I am gay and I do have pressure to produce blood relatives for my family even though I want to have a surrogate or adopt.

Sorry if this is getting off-topic; some of it just hits way close to home. It's clear that Miranda's angle out of all the arcs in the ME 'verse has some serious family issues. But I think you could say that about Garrus (his father), Liara (both parents), Tali (her father). And just look at Grunt - he was made in a test-tube too but he seems well-grounded (considering that he's a krogan). Perhaps humans are just more emotional when it comes to these things?

Don't get me wrong; I'm not trying to belittle Miranda and Oriana's plight - I'm just trying to generate ideas.

So even though Miranda says that she was the first one her father kept specifically to serve his purpose; it seems as though Oriana was the first one Henry wanted to have some kind of familial relationship with.

Just trying to bounce stuff back and forth - I'm not normally from Miranda's fanbase but I genuinely find this topic interesting.

Modifié par AustereLemur799, 07 février 2013 - 10:59 .

[hot_heart]

Oh, I agree, it's helpful/interesting to bounce the stuff back and forth. No offence meant by disagreement, obviously.

I think with Grunt it's as you say, the krogan's culture is different and Grunt was 'provided' with plenty of history and such so that he still felt whole. Though, I think he would be in a bad situation if he hadn't completed his Rite, and assuming no one but Wrex/Wreav would accept him as a krogan or give him that chance beforehand. It's understandable why ME3 wouldn't expand on this, however.

Also, I do find it hard to see that Henry wanted a familial relationship with Oriana. Perhaps because my own perception, given what Miranda says is that, he would keep creating daughters until he got what he wanted. He kept Miranda, but during her teenage years, he opted to create Oriana as a replacement. I also don't believe he would take her as a hostage if it were a truly tragic character.

Why he never tried to create another after that is up for speculation...

[MrStoob]

 I'm going to spoiler my own FF here for reference, so if you're reading and haven't got to the Miri bit, look away now!

Post-ending (won't say which... hehe) Shepard finds a station floating between systems and investigates and finds 'Miranda' and 'Oriana' aboard, but it isn't them.  Initially Shep thinks he had 'spares' made, but it becomes more insidious than that.  Quote from FF:

Verity has re-thought the previous accusations she made towards Henry Lawson, that it is not so much 'spares' he needed but he still wanted to be 'daddy' to his daughters. So he created strong daughters to fight the outside world, to be his legacy, him thinking that he needs daughters who don't need him for them to be successful. Then he also wanted soft daughters to be the loving girls that those damaged women could never be. He even named them the same, possibly in his mind even seeing them as the same. He wanted to have his cake and eat it.

Henry was aware his daughters in the outside world would no doubt hate him but it was not their purpose to be those loving daughters. If he needed that affection and love, he need only go to his 'spares', for them to shout 'daddy!' when he entered and rush to him with enthusiastic stories of their lives, innocent and pure. Verity isn't sure if she should feel anger or pity, but the former is more prevalent. Control. The man had to have control, this was already known of him, but this is a whole new twisted kettle of fish.

Modifié par MrStoob, 07 février 2013 - 11:37 .

[Ignis Mors]

hot_heart wrote...

Oh, I agree, it's helpful/interesting to bounce the stuff back and forth. No offence meant by disagreement, obviously.

I think with Grunt it's as you say, the krogan's culture is different and Grunt was 'provided' with plenty of history and such so that he still felt whole. Though, I think he would be in a bad situation if he hadn't completed his Rite, and assuming no one but Wrex/Wreav would accept him as a krogan or give him that chance beforehand. It's understandable why ME3 wouldn't expand on this, however.

Also, I do find it hard to see that Henry wanted a familial relationship with Oriana. Perhaps because my own perception, given what Miranda says is that, he would keep creating daughters until he got what he wanted. He kept Miranda, but during her teenage years, he opted to create Oriana as a replacement. I also don't believe he would take her as a hostage if it were a truly tragic character.

Why he never tried to create another after that is up for speculation...

It could have been that the people he had create his daughters quit working for him, or that he was curious about how Oriana would turn out raised in a different environment. Or, it was so insanely expensive to create another that spending years looking for Oriana would be cheaper.

[AustereLemur799]

hot_heart wrote...

Oh, I agree, it's helpful/interesting to bounce the stuff back and forth. No offence meant by disagreement, obviously.

I think with Grunt it's as you say, the krogan's culture is different and Grunt was 'provided' with plenty of history and such so that he still felt whole. Though, I think he would be in a bad situation if he hadn't completed his Rite, and assuming no one but Wrex/Wreav would accept him as a krogan or give him that chance beforehand. It's understandable why ME3 wouldn't expand on this, however.

Also, I do find it hard to see that Henry wanted a familial relationship with Oriana. Perhaps because my own perception, given what Miranda says is that, he would keep creating daughters until he got what he wanted. He kept Miranda, but during her teenage years, he opted to create Oriana as a replacement. I also don't believe he would take her as a hostage if it were a truly tragic character.

Why he never tried to create another after that is up for speculation...

Thanks for getting back to me - disagreements and alternate opions are good since they spark healthy debate and discussion.

I respect your opinions and I agree with what you're saying. One thing I love about Mass Effect  is that we get to explore alien cultures which differ from human culture - and even then we sort of have to round up Earth's various cultures. I find it all very interesting.

One thing I have to disagree with is your definition of a tragic character (I could totally be getting this wrong since English isn't my first language, and I whole-heartedly apologise if this happens to be the case) but I studied classical Civilsation at school and tragic characters are, by definition, often grey shades rather than black and white.

I think that Henry took Oriana hostage as an act of desperation - I think that before (and even during); he had her best interests to heart (however twisted they may have been). I think that he saw Miranda as a loose cannon who was trying to take Oriana (his only possesion - familial or as some other kind of asset [I can't think of the right word, sorry]) away from him. A tragic character means to me that the character in question is driven by many things like emotion, logic, reason - lack of the above. Basically shades of grey. Bottom line is that when I saw the cutscene at the end of the Sanctuary mission; I didn't see Henry taking Oriana hostage because he was evil; I saw it as survival - even as a means to preserve her because he knew that Miranda would hurt her to get to him.

Perhaps this is just my own desire to view would-be criminals/abusers as victims too. Sorry if that's wrong to say on here. I think that, as writers, we have almost an obligation to explore these issues for the rest of society. If this makes anyone uncomfortable, I really do apologise.

It could be that Henry didn't create another because he had learned that it was wrong. Perhaps he wanted to do right with what he had. Everything in ME3 was rushed for me - but I would definitely have loved to see more in-depth character stuff here. In all my playthroughs, I felt that I was a close friend of Miranda. I never romanced her because I was a femshep (and I even hoped for it!). But even when Miranda mentioned the control-chip thing; I just felt sorry for her. Miranda has a lot of burdens on her character; she's conscious of messing up because she thinks she should be perfect and infallible by default thanks to her creation and genetic makeup. Let me tell you that no amount of genetics makes up for real life and real life situations. People are more than one-dimensional. I truly believe that Henry Lawson is more than a one-dimensional evil character - there's far more to him than that and ME3 gave us such a small shap-shot.

But I obviously don't want to argue about this. I will go away. I just enjoyed exploring this topic to all its depths and I'll be sure to read your fic because this is interesting to me.

[hot_heart]

AustereLemur799 wrote...
One thing I have to disagree with is your definition of a tragic character (I could totally be getting this wrong since English isn't my first language, and I whole-heartedly apologise if this happens to be the case) but I studied classical Civilsation at school and tragic characters are, by definition, often grey shades rather than black and white.

I think that Henry took Oriana hostage as an act of desperation - I think that before (and even during); he had her best interests to heart (however twisted they may have been). I think that he saw Miranda as a loose cannon who was trying to take Oriana (his only possesion - familial or as some other kind of asset [I can't think of the right word, sorry]) away from him.

Actually, you're probably right there. I meant to edit that sentence to be more coherent, but it's late. Forgive me.

I was looking at it from all perspectives (i.e. Miranda didn't survive in ME3, Oriana tries to warn people about Sanctuary, Henry still takes her hostage) and would consider a tragic ending having him surrender and either being killed or accepting that he'll never have that familial connection.

AustereLemur799 wrote...
Perhaps this is just my own desire to view would-be criminals/abusers as victims too. Sorry if that's wrong to say on here. I think that, as writers, we have almost an obligation to explore these issues for the rest of society. If this makes anyone uncomfortable, I really do apologise.

Oh, I agree. From a writing perspective it is worthwhile to create three-dimensional characters and leave a little more up to the audience to discuss and explore. Make people think about things in a different way, see things from a different perspective.

With Henry Lawson I wanted there to be more, and I think yours is an intriguing concept, but I'd have a hard time reconciling too sympathetic a characterisation with what the game provides, unfortunately.

p.s. I don't consider this an argument (he says, arguing the point). It is a thoughtful discussion.

[hot_heart]

MrStoob wrote...
I'm going to spoiler my own FF here for reference, so if you're reading and haven't got to the Miri bit, look away now!

Very interesting! Sounds ripe with potential as well. I think you could make it work.

[MrStoob]

hot_heart wrote...

MrStoob wrote...
I'm going to spoiler my own FF here for reference, so if you're reading and haven't got to the Miri bit, look away now!

Very interesting! Sounds ripe with potential as well. I think you could make it work.

It's done and out there.  not-Miranda and not-Oriana are as smart as their counter-parts but less worldly wise until their encounter with Shep.  They weren't even made aware of any of the events of the Citadel, Reapers, war, etc, or their father's true drive beyond Henry's occasional meeting with some slimy unnaturally blue eyed bloke aboard their station...  Henry lied to the 'not' sisters that the genetically enhanced are shunned in the real world so he keeps them away from the big bad world for their own protection.

Oh, and I've had fun with not-Miranda's character.  She's more frivolous and 'fun'.

Modifié par MrStoob, 08 février 2013 - 12:33 .

[Drussius]

Just a bump, for the sake of keeping us on page one. Couldn't really contribute much to the whole Miranda discussion. She was just one of those characters that, for whatever reason, I just couldn't get into. I didn't hate her or anything. She was just... there.

Edit: Just thought of something constructive to ask...

For anyone who plays ME3 Multiplayer, you're probably aware of Hazard: Ghost. I was just wondering... am I alone in thinking that the idea of rainfall (or hail or any severe weather like that) might actually drain shield strength? I mean, a kinetic shield blocks anything traveling above a certain speed, right? Rainfall comes down pretty fast. So I imagine it would be a constant drain on a shield generator to deflect dozens of little droplets per second. Am I alone in finding this logical? I mean... a light sprinkling of rain would probably be negligable. But a torrential downpour?

Modifié par Drussius, 09 février 2013 - 10:33 .

[Obsidian Gryphon]

Drussius wrote...

Just a bump, for the sake of keeping us on page one. Couldn't really contribute much to the whole Miranda discussion. She was just one of those characters that, for whatever reason, I just couldn't get into. I didn't hate her or anything. She was just... there.

Edit: Just thought of something constructive to ask...

For anyone who plays ME3 Multiplayer, you're probably aware of Hazard: Ghost. I was just wondering... am I alone in thinking that the idea of rainfall (or hail or any severe weather like that) might actually drain shield strength? I mean, a kinetic shield blocks anything traveling above a certain speed, right? Rainfall comes down pretty fast. So I imagine it would be a constant drain on a shield generator to deflect dozens of little droplets per second. Am I alone in finding this logical? I mean... a light sprinkling of rain would probably be negligable. But a torrential downpour?

I think you're not too far off the mark. Given that the rain in that map seemed more acidic, the impact on the shields has to be twice than normal. I always find my shields going down very fast, give or take 5 seconds. Turians have pretty good shields but they can go down pretty fast in that environment.

[Spiritwolf1]

Yeah that rain kills your sheilds, I hate that map for that purpose, there are some nice cover spots though, but the rain drains them quickly.

Also: have you ever noticed the different heart beats for the different races when you're close to dying?

Modifié par Spiritwolf1, 09 février 2013 - 03:40 .

[MrStoob]

Spiritwolf1 wrote...

Yeah that rain kills your sheilds, I hate that map for that purpose, there are some nice cover spots though, but the rain drains them quickly.

Also: have you ever noticed the different heart beats for the different races when you're close to dying?

I've only really consistently gone human or asari so can't really say I've noticed the different heatbeats.  I've got bugger all characters unlocked anyway, just a few.   Yes, yes, I'm a noob, but I only started multi-player in ernest in the last few months.  I'm just happy I got my Eagle upgraded again from the Op Nightfall pack though anything beyond silver is a grind for me and my slow synapses as I mainly lay on the floor due to having only a few survival packs and medi gels.

[MrStoob]

Anyhoo, on topic.

Asari physical maturity. I'm going for some time in the 40's age range. Is there anything more specific I should consider? I don't think there's anything canon, but I'm happy to be corrected.

[MrStoob]

AustereLemur799 wrote...
One thing I have to disagree with is your definition of a tragic character (I could totally be getting this wrong since English isn't my first language, and I whole-heartedly apologise if this happens to be the case) but I studied classical Civilsation at school and tragic characters are, by definition, often grey shades rather than black and white. 

Usually, the term 'tragedy' (in the Shakespearian sense anyway) would mean that the dark conclusion is inevitable, that the protagonist brings it upon themselves.  So Hamlet is a tragic character.  He provaricates over his father's murder, dwells in his own misery, and by the end, has let things become so out of hand, his death in violence is inevitable.  Similar but different with Othello, it's his own jealousy fuelled by Iago that causes his downfall.

2 cents, in the pan 

[nrobbiec]

I'm planning on overhauling my fics, make one longer one instead and change some things I didn't like. Been struggling with details though, there's so much I want to cover but I don't know how to structure it properly. Feels like I'm throwing stuff in just because it needs addressing. I kind of went into it under-confident since my headcanon is very similar to a couple of others so I cut some things short so it didn't look like I was just copying another.

My perfectionist side is too stubborn to leave something I feel is half-arsed.

[Obsidian Gryphon]

Anyone having problems with FFN? I received notifications on stories but I can't find the pages. Instead, a message appeared saying it takes 15 minutes for a new story to load. Thing is, time stamp put the stories as posted yesterday.

Modifié par Obsidian Gryphon, 10 février 2013 - 02:16 .

[fluffywalrus]

Obsidian Gryphon wrote...

Anyone having problems with FFN? I received notifications on stories but I can't find the pages. Instead, a message appeared saying it takes 15 minutes for a new story to load. Thing is, time stamp put the stories as posted yesterday.

Yeah, I've had a few notifications pop up today, and all have led to errors. They haven't actually uploaded. methinks FFnet is having issues.

nrobbiec wrote...

I'm planning on overhauling my fics,
make one longer one instead and change some things I didn't like. Been
struggling with details though, there's so much I want to cover but I
don't know how to structure it properly. Feels like I'm throwing stuff
in just because it needs addressing. I kind of went into it
under-confident since my headcanon is very similar to a couple of others
so I cut some things short so it didn't look like I was just copying
another.

My perfectionist side is too stubborn to leave something I feel is half-arsed.

Honestly, don't worry about similarities. if it's making you feel uneasy including that stuff, just leave a credit at the bottom like "Credit to  ____ and ____. Great minds think alike", where the blanks could house authors (with their stories in brackets) perhaps? I've read so many mass effect fics, that something is bound to have leaked into mine without me really being aware. it's just how it is. I credit those who had the same idea, or who I got influence from, and that lets me write what I want. So honestly, don't feel you have to cut things out if they're similar to other people's. There are no new ideas in fiction.

As for the rest, not sure I can help. Just know your characters incredibly well, is all I can say. If you can't have an hour long conversation with one of your characters in your mind, you don't know them well enough. I find that when you do, the characters kind of write themselves, and that frees me up to put plan out general events for them to wander into.

[MrStoob]

fluffywalrus wrote...
If you can't have an hour long conversation with one of your characters in your mind, you don't know them well enough. I find that when you do, the characters kind of write themselves, and that frees me up to put plan out general events for them to wander into.

Good to see you about Fluffster.

I'd not considered my characters in that particular way, i.e. holding a consistent conversation for a length of time.  A good exercise.

But yes, the characters do indeed 'write themselves' if well developed.  I find a lot of my chapters (I write on the fly anyway) write themselves and usually end up in places I didn't think of due to the reactions/motivations of the characters guiding my fingers, as t'were.  "plan out general events"?  What is this alien concept?  hehe.

[gisle]

MrStoob wrote...

Anyhoo, on topic.

Asari physical maturity. I'm going for some time in the 40's age range. Is there anything more specific I should consider? I don't think there's anything canon, but I'm happy to be corrected.

Their cultural maturtiy - if that's the right term - is 60 years old[1]. Physical maturity isn't easy to tell. What makes them long-lived isn't the opposite of what the salarians have, which one can interpret as having the physical maturity around 20. It is at least before 42, since Ardat-Yakshi manifests at maturity and Falere's in the monastery at that age[2]. The length of Justicar training before the Oath of Solitude is also not anywhere in canon, and neither is how long Falere has been at the place, or if she was a late diagnosis.

1. Illium, asari near weapons kiosk talking to a salarian.
2. SB Dossiers / Samara

Modifié par Gisle-Aune, 10 février 2013 - 02:01 .