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[Fatiguesdualism]

nrobbiec wrote...

Has anyone ever tackled killing a character off in an original story, that is outside of the possible in-game deaths, like post-ME3?

Writing yourself into a corner & character death in the same day.  (I'm not paranoid but folks please take your shoes off whilst walking in my brain! !)  Anyway I had intended to kill off Vega (nothing personal big guy ) but got myself stuck into a situation where it became either impossible to kill him without taking out Shepard as well, or it would just be too blatant a 'death for the sake of a death' scenario .  So he's still breathing!   For now!  Would say death's are tricky to write well though (My draft Vega went through about three, none of them really worked.)

PS: (Slaps at back of own head)  Forgot I killed Jack off in my first piece (It's a variation on ME2's suicide mission), basically a Collector 'tags' her leaving her shot up then Miri comes over and... well it's supposed to be ambigious but I know my interpretation.  Also when I wrote Garrus's report I was going with Tali being killed 'off-screen'   But I don't know if I can keep being so evil!  (Seriously if my Shep met me in real life, he would tag me without hesitation - and he's supposed to be mostly Paragon!)

Modifié par Fatiguesdualism, 23 mars 2013 - 08:42 .

[Ignis Mors]

Fatiguesdualism wrote...

nrobbiec wrote...

Has anyone ever tackled killing a character off in an original story, that is outside of the possible in-game deaths, like post-ME3?

Writing yourself into a corner & character death in the same day.  (I'm not paranoid but folks please take your shoes off whilst walking in my brain! !)  Anyway I had intended to kill off Vega (nothing personal big guy ) but got myself stuck into a situation where it became either impossible to kill him without taking out Shepard as well, or it would just be too blatant a 'death for the sake of a death' scenario .  So he's still breathing!   For now!  Would say death's are tricky to write well though (My draft Vega went through about three, none of them really worked.)

PS: (Slaps at back of own head)  Forgot I killed Jack off in my first piece (It's a variation on ME2's suicide mission), basically a Collector 'tags' her leaving her shot up then Miri comes over and... well it's supposed to be ambigious but I know my interpretation.  Also when I wrote Garrus's report I was going with Tali being killed 'off-screen'   But I don't know if I can keep being so evil!  (Seriously if my Shep met me in real life, he would tag me without hesitation - and he's supposed to be mostly Paragon!)

I once had Shepard try to kill Liara off three times in two chapters. First, she tries to beat her to death, but was stopped by other people. Then she tries to throw her out the airlock, but Legion stopped her, then she just tried to kill Liara by sniping her. I went a little bit overboard then. 

[nrobbiec]

I'm considering killing off 2 ME2 squadmates at the end of the first Spectre Alenko arc. Poor Kaidan, despite everything going on in the stories I still think it would take a sudden Nyreen-esque death to push him into killing an old friend. The problem is though, the main reason is I just don't like them and don't know how to deal with them short of them just never coming up.

[dpMeggers]

nrobbiec wrote...

Has anyone ever tackled killing a character off in an original story, that is outside of the possible in-game deaths, like post-ME3?

Well I've already killed off 2 OCs. And I have plans to kill more of them...Does that count?

nrobbiec wrote...

I'm considering killing off 2 ME2 squadmates at the end of the first Spectre Alenko arc. Poor Kaidan, despite everything going on in the stories I still think it would take a sudden Nyreen-esque death to push him into killing an old friend. The problem is though, the main reason is I just don't like them and don't know how to deal with them short of them just never coming up.

I'm...not entirely certain that not liking them/not knowing what to do with them is a good enough reason to kill a character off - it might be a little to 'death for the sake of death'. I think you're safer having them not come up or having a very small role in the story.

[nrobbiec]

dpMeggers wrote...

nrobbiec wrote...

I'm considering killing off 2 ME2 squadmates at the end of the first Spectre Alenko arc. Poor Kaidan, despite everything going on in the stories I still think it would take a sudden Nyreen-esque death to push him into killing an old friend. The problem is though, the main reason is I just don't like them and don't know how to deal with them short of them just never coming up.

I'm...not entirely certain that not liking them/not knowing what to do with them is a good enough reason to kill a character off - it might be a little to 'death for the sake of death'. I think you're safer having them not come up or having a very small role in the story.

Neither am I. Yeah that's what it was feeling like, they were really being shoehorned into the plot too. I'll probably just leave them to their lives what with them looking after their babies and siblings.

I killed off several characters in the first chapter of "A TIme to..." but that was on the Citadel during the ending so it made sense. I feel bad but it was necessary.

[fluffywalrus]

My motto tends to be that if you can't say something nice about a character, don't say anything at all. This stretches into how I handle characters from the game. Anyone I generally find entirely uninteresting or out of my depth, I kind of keep them off to the side. I try not to kill anyone off without a reason, and I try to make deaths mean something, or else I try to avoid them.

[nrobbiec]

Yeah I get that, I ignored a few people in ME2 but didn't let any of them die during the suicide mission. The only person I will let die is Cortez because it just seems fitting in a conventional sci-fi way, that recurring character who gets killed in the finale.

[Seracen]

nrobbiec wrote...

Has anyone ever tackled killing a character off in an original story, that is outside of the possible in-game deaths, like post-ME3?

I fully intend to have a few characters die in my current story.  However, I am trying to avoid it being totally shock value. A lot of it is that I just can't beleive the heroes will be able to pull off a flawless victory.

ME3 wouldn't have feel real if such a victory were possible.  Then again, other aspects did potentially more lore breaking (I won't go into details, but I'm looking at you, ending and the redacted book!).

Also currently, I am not entirely sure who will survive until the end of the book.  There are a few that I'm more likely to see die, and a few who likely won't.  I almost want to be as surprised as I hope my readers will be!

[Seracen]

dpMeggers wrote...

Well I've already killed off 2 OCs. And I have plans to kill more of them...Does that count? 

fluffywalrus wrote...

My motto tends to be that if you can't say something nice about a character, don't say anything at all. This stretches into how I handle characters from the game. Anyone I generally find entirely uninteresting or out of my depth, I kind of keep them off to the side. I try not to kill anyone off without a reason, and I try to make deaths mean something, or else I try to avoid them.

Good points both.  I'd rather leave a char out of the story, instead of doing them disservice.  Thus, James and Jacob factor very little in my story.  They show up about as much as some of the side crew (Chakwas, Kelly, Cortez).  On the other hand, I've crafted more than a few OC's (good and evil) that I intend to kill off, but I also have crux points to justify and utilize those deaths.

Good examples of characters killed off poorly: Halo Reach (char's die unrealisitcally/for shock value, no time to appreciate the sacrifice) and the last Harry Potter book (char's die off screen, or get ONE BLOODY LINE).

So yeah, it's just like any other aspect of lore checking and such, there needs to be justification.

[Ignis Mors]

Seracen wrote...

dpMeggers wrote...

Well I've already killed off 2 OCs. And I have plans to kill more of them...Does that count? 

fluffywalrus wrote...

My motto tends to be that if you can't say something nice about a character, don't say anything at all. This stretches into how I handle characters from the game. Anyone I generally find entirely uninteresting or out of my depth, I kind of keep them off to the side. I try not to kill anyone off without a reason, and I try to make deaths mean something, or else I try to avoid them.

Good points both.  I'd rather leave a char out of the story, instead of doing them disservice.  Thus, James and Jacob factor very little in my story.  They show up about as much as some of the side crew (Chakwas, Kelly, Cortez).  On the other hand, I've crafted more than a few OC's (good and evil) that I intend to kill off, but I also have crux points to justify and utilize those deaths.

Good examples of characters killed off poorly: Halo Reach (char's die unrealisitcally/for shock value, no time to appreciate the sacrifice) and the last Harry Potter book (char's die off screen, or get ONE BLOODY LINE).

So yeah, it's just like any other aspect of lore checking and such, there needs to be justification.

I've had that hapen with a couple of characters, not including them because I couldn't write them well. (Gatatog Uvenk, Fai Dan[I think], and the backstory characters for Shepard. 

[Seracen]

Ignis Mors wrote...

I've had that hapen with a couple of characters, not including them because I couldn't write them well. (Gatatog Uvenk, Fai Dan[I think], and the backstory characters for Shepard. 

I hear that.  Honestly, sometimes I don't bother with the side chars, b/c I feel like there wasn't enough of a glimpse into their pyche, and I don't feel like doing a worksheet on a character I never created.

Oh...haha, I just forgot, I kill off Corporal Toombs in like...the 3rd chapter of my story!

Then again, as a side char who may not have survived in your game anyways, I I didn't feel like his death would shake the boat all that much.

Looking back on it...his death serves as the start of this whole adventure...or at least the clue that leads the heroes to unraveling the mystery behind the adventure...

Suppose he has more meaning than I gave him credit for...even dead !

[hot_heart]

Seracen wrote...
Good examples of characters killed off poorly: Halo Reach (char's die unrealisitcally/for shock value, no time to appreciate the sacrifice)

I thought they worked fairly well. Sometimes, you don't get the chance to mourn; it's an alien invasion.

Though, I can understand the frustration at one instance where things go by 'cutscene rules'.

In my writing news, I've decided to do an about-turn on this chapter. Miranda's on the Normandy, people wanted to see her on the Normandy so she's going to be on there...for at least a little while.

[Bebuse]

I had a few crew members die on the Collector Base, and there were a few reasons:

- Absolution. One of the crew was indirectly responsible for something terrible happening to Shepard, and so gave their own life to save her.

- I wasn't hugely fond of them. I feel quite bad for this, but I didn't want any of the "core" team to be sidelined in ME3, so gave them a glorious way out now rather than treat them badly later on. In hindsight I think I could have done them greater justice, but I'm set with it now. As a general hint to other authors if you are considering this... there is usually a better way, it is better to have a death meaningful than "just because". I won't be using this reason for character deaths any more - still learning as I go along!

- Plot/character development. A character's presence or lack thereof can make a huge difference to certain events which can be interesting to explore, and I've got a constantly ongoing development from another...

*Spoiler if you're reading but not up to date with my newest story*

I had Legion's platform be heavily damaged. Rather than die, Tali downloaded the programs into her suit and now have a somewhat tense symbiotic type relationship. I have to admit this was a spur-of-the-moment decision at the time, but I am thoroughly enjoying developing it.

*End spoiler*

So in general, from reading other stories and my own experience, I'd agree with Fluffy above. If you're going to do it, I think a death should mean something to the story and the characters in it.

The original question was about a death outside of "canon" ones though... I suppose the same rules apply. Ensure it has a purpose, and if possible make sure they go out in as bad-ass a way as possible!

[dpMeggers]

Bebuse wrote...

...

So in general, from reading other stories and my own experience, I'd agree with Fluffy above. If you're going to do it, I think a death should mean something to the story and the characters in it.

The original question was about a death outside of "canon" ones though... I suppose the same rules apply. Ensure it has a purpose, and if possible make sure they go out in as bad-ass a way as possible!

I don't know, I think, depending on the character and the story, going out in a really sort of 'cheap' way can be just as effective.

Civilians, as a general rule, aren't bad-asses. So if you have civilian characters it's ok to let them go in a less than cool way. I killed one off with a serial killer - not a particularly nice way to go, and she didn't get a chance to fight back. Not especially badass. Given the opportunity, I'd do it again. Maybe not a serial killer, maybe something more mundane like a car accident...but she'd still die. (I also had a reason for killing her off in a violent way - which will likely come up later).

With a 'cheap' death the characters left behind are still going to grieve. They'll likely be angry at the circumstances or the person they see as responsible for the death or whathave you. It might motivate them to do something about it, it might not.

And then there are circumstance deaths - I'm writing Akuze right now so death is sort of on my mind a little here. Basically, canon dictates that anyone on that trip who isn't Shepard or Toombs kicks the bucket. Due to that particular circumstance, I now have about 9 or 10 named characters (some of whom, admittedly, aren't particularly important) who are about to get eaten/mauled/acided to death in a short time frame. Will they fight back? Hell yes, they're marines. Will they lose horribly? Also yes. And I don't know how badass it is to go down as a chew toy for an oversized worm.

But again, it depends on the character and the story. If at any point during the game, one of the Squadmates (current or former) went down to a hovercar accident, I'd be well and truly pissed because they survived the Battle of the Citadel/Omega-4 run and then went down to an accident? What the hell? Not an impressive way to go (though the random chance would be realistic). If a Reaper took them out? Still probably be pissed - but they'd be a casualty of war and I'd want to take the Reapers down even harder.

Edit: Wow this was longer than I intended. Must be because I'm still half asleep.

Modifié par dpMeggers, 24 mars 2013 - 02:00 .

[Bebuse]

dpMeggers wrote...

I don't know, I think, depending on the character and the story, going out in a really sort of 'cheap' way can be just as effective.

...

With a 'cheap' death the characters left behind are still going to grieve. They'll likely be angry at the circumstances or the person they see as responsible for the death or whathave you. It might motivate them to do something about it, it might not.

Very true! The legacy of the dead is something that can linger throughout a story, and you are right that to that end even "cheap" deaths can have a purpose beyond the immediate grief. 

One of my favourite "canon" fics which recently finished had much of the Shepard's crew being gradually killed off throughout ME3 which I thought was particularly well done: some were deaths we could see in the game, some were not, but they all felt very real and gave a real sense of just how brutal and hard the war was. We are told there are millions dying but it is hard to imagine that: wondering if a friend is going to be killed or injured when the increasingly exhausted ground team is deployed really hammers home the horror of what is going on.

As a reader, it also added a lot of suspense to the story: knowing the author was not constraining himself to "canon" deaths made reading everything incredibly uncertain and almost scary.

[Seracen]

hot_heart wrote...

Seracen wrote...
Good examples of characters killed off poorly: Halo Reach (char's die unrealisitcally/for shock value, no time to appreciate the sacrifice)

I thought they worked fairly well. Sometimes, you don't get the chance to mourn; it's an alien invasion.

Though, I can understand the frustration at one instance where things go by 'cutscene rules'.

In my writing news, I've decided to do an about-turn on this chapter. Miranda's on the Normandy, people wanted to see her on the Normandy so she's going to be on there...for at least a little while.

Yeah, I was trying not to go into details, but the idea of a lone Jackal taking out a fully shielded and armored Spartan was bollocks.  I didn't particularly mind the way in which the rest died, but the whole game was...as Yahtzee says it "who can die in the most Noble way possible...thereby being the bigger ****!"

On the other point...nice to see 'Randa back on board.  Then again, with the whole lack of ME2 squaddies in ME3, I think all the fans want any excuse for such things to happen.

[Seracen]

Bebuse wrote...

I had a few crew members die on the Collector Base, and there were a few reasons:

- Absolution. One of the crew was indirectly responsible for something terrible happening to Shepard, and so gave their own life to save her.

It's sad, but the only person who came to mind for me was Joker, haha!  I dunno about anyone else, but I always found it odd that they didn't develop that particular wrinkle more (one line, I know, but seriously, that's it?!).

dpMeggers wrote...

I don't know, I think, depending on the character and the story, going out in a really sort of 'cheap' way can be just as effective.
....
With a 'cheap' death the characters left behind are still going to grieve. They'll likely be angry at the circumstances or the person they see as responsible for the death or whathave you. It might motivate them to do something about it, it might not.
....

Agreed, the death itself doesn't have to be grandiose.  However, the death itself has a purpose.  I fully accept that bad-ass deaths CAN be overly indulgent.  They are nice to write, but only if the situation fits.

However, if we liken character deaths to chess, I like to treat these developments as sacrificing a non-Pawn for an important gain.  Whether the manner is ignoble or heroic, it matters not, so long as something has been gained.

And by contrast, I totally allow myself indulgent chapters from time to time...I have to, it keeps things fun and fresh.  I just try not to trample over any good will I may already have developed by that time.

[Ignis Mors]

dpMeggers wrote...

Bebuse wrote...

...

So in general, from reading other stories and my own experience, I'd agree with Fluffy above. If you're going to do it, I think a death should mean something to the story and the characters in it.

The original question was about a death outside of "canon" ones though... I suppose the same rules apply. Ensure it has a purpose, and if possible make sure they go out in as bad-ass a way as possible!

I don't know, I think, depending on the character and the story, going out in a really sort of 'cheap' way can be just as effective.

Civilians, as a general rule, aren't bad-asses. So if you have civilian characters it's ok to let them go in a less than cool way. I killed one off with a serial killer - not a particularly nice way to go, and she didn't get a chance to fight back. Not especially badass. Given the opportunity, I'd do it again. Maybe not a serial killer, maybe something more mundane like a car accident...but she'd still die. (I also had a reason for killing her off in a violent way - which will likely come up later).

With a 'cheap' death the characters left behind are still going to grieve. They'll likely be angry at the circumstances or the person they see as responsible for the death or whathave you. It might motivate them to do something about it, it might not.

And then there are circumstance deaths - I'm writing Akuze right now so death is sort of on my mind a little here. Basically, canon dictates that anyone on that trip who isn't Shepard or Toombs kicks the bucket. Due to that particular circumstance, I now have about 9 or 10 named characters (some of whom, admittedly, aren't particularly important) who are about to get eaten/mauled/acided to death in a short time frame. Will they fight back? Hell yes, they're marines. Will they lose horribly? Also yes. And I don't know how badass it is to go down as a chew toy for an oversized worm.

But again, it depends on the character and the story. If at any point during the game, one of the Squadmates (current or former) went down to a hovercar accident, I'd be well and truly pissed because they survived the Battle of the Citadel/Omega-4 run and then went down to an accident? What the hell? Not an impressive way to go (though the random chance would be realistic). If a Reaper took them out? Still probably be pissed - but they'd be a casualty of war and I'd want to take the Reapers down even harder.

Edit: Wow this was longer than I intended. Must be because I'm still half asleep.

Lol. In my  latest chapter, I had Shep get grabbed by a thresher maw and dragged underground, (Though through sheer luck, she isn't dead.) to enable a reveal of a piece of the plot that is veeeery important. And, it will also allow me to expand on thresher maw stuff. Especially Kalros. 
So what do you guys think are the chances of someone surviving being grabbed by a thresher maw. I think I gave enough stuff to make it fairly believable('specially if you've read the entire thing), but I don't know. I had her get a dreadnaught-tough barrier at the last second, but I don't know if that's so believable.

[dpMeggers]

Ignis Mors wrote...

Lol. In my  latest chapter, I had Shep get grabbed by a thresher maw and dragged underground, (Though through sheer luck, she isn't dead.) to enable a reveal of a piece of the plot that is veeeery important. And, it will also allow me to expand on thresher maw stuff. Especially Kalros. 
So what do you guys think are the chances of someone surviving being grabbed by a thresher maw. I think I gave enough stuff to make it fairly believable('specially if you've read the entire thing), but I don't know. I had her get a dreadnaught-tough barrier at the last second, but I don't know if that's so believable.

Well, Toombs survives. A Sole Survivor Shepard will say that they saw Toombs get dragged under, and then it turns out he survived - so its definitely possible. Also the Graal Spike Thrower shotgun was designed to cause internal injuries if the bearer is swallowed - so presumably someone using it would plan to come back out again after.

As an aside: you gotta love the krogan.
Krogan 1:"Hey there's a giant thing out there that wants to eat us! Let's kill it!"
Krogan 2: "But what if it does eat us?"
Krogan 1: "SHOOT IT FROM THE INSIDE!!!"

[hot_heart]

dpMeggers wrote...
Also the Graal Spike Thrower shotgun was designed to cause internal injuries if the bearer is swallowed - so presumably someone using it would plan to come back out again after.

Claymores work too.

[Bebuse]

Seracen wrote...

Bebuse wrote...

I had a few crew members die on the Collector Base, and there were a few reasons:

- Absolution. One of the crew was indirectly responsible for something terrible happening to Shepard, and so gave their own life to save her.

It's sad, but the only person who came to mind for me was Joker, haha!  I dunno about anyone else, but I always found it odd that they didn't develop that particular wrinkle more (one line, I know, but seriously, that's it?!).

It was an original plot point of mine (spoiler alert if you haven't read it and plan to...) - Morinth seduced and sexually assualted Shepard before Samara could arrive, which Samara took as her own responsibility on several levels and in the end exhausted herself biotically to ensure Shepard survived the Collector Base. 

You're very right re Joker - considering he caused Shepard's death he gave very little in the way of an apology. I suppose that was a knock on of how Shep's death was presented in ME2/3 though... so little is made of it, I often wonder why the team bothered to have Shepard *die* at all when there are far easier ways to have Shepard fall into Cerberus' hands.

[dpMeggers]

Bebuse wrote...

Seracen wrote...

Bebuse wrote...

I had a few crew members die on the Collector Base, and there were a few reasons:

- Absolution. One of the crew was indirectly responsible for something terrible happening to Shepard, and so gave their own life to save her.

It's sad, but the only person who came to mind for me was Joker, haha!  I dunno about anyone else, but I always found it odd that they didn't develop that particular wrinkle more (one line, I know, but seriously, that's it?!).

...
You're very right re Joker - considering he caused Shepard's death he gave very little in the way of an apology. I suppose that was a knock on of how Shep's death was presented in ME2/3 though... so little is made of it, I often wonder why the team bothered to have Shepard *die* at all when there are far easier ways to have Shepard fall into Cerberus' hands.

Well, Shep does sort of come back from death/is undead, so maybe (s)he and Joker just decided to call a mulligan? I mean they refer to it when they first meet up again in 2 and then again after Thessia when Joker is all "I'm trying to take care of you because I got you killed" so there's obviously some acknowledgement/guilt there.

And speaking as someone who plays Sole Survivor as a background more frequently than any other - being brought back to life is just about the only way those Sheps could be convinced to work with Cerberus. Heck, even without Akuze, Cerberus gets up to some epically stupid/dangerous/evil stuff in ME1. Creepers, rachni, Kahoku - all very uncool.

[Bebuse]

dpMeggers wrote...

Well, Shep does sort of come back from death/is undead, so maybe (s)he and Joker just decided to call a mulligan? I mean they refer to it when they first meet up again in 2 and then again after Thessia when Joker is all "I'm trying to take care of you because I got you killed" so there's obviously some acknowledgement/guilt there.

And speaking as someone who plays Sole Survivor as a background more frequently than any other - being brought back to life is just about the only way those Sheps could be convinced to work with Cerberus. Heck, even without Akuze, Cerberus gets up to some epically stupid/dangerous/evil stuff in ME1. Creepers, rachni, Kahoku - all very uncool.

Much of that motivation has to be headcanon - which personally I love reading what others think (I headcanon a huge percentage of ME3) - but I was always left wondering why, of everything Bioware could have done with Shepard, they killed them (a very profound and absolute thing), and then did so little with it afterwards. Just seemed a bit strange to me 

The way I wrote my ME2 story didn't leave a huge amount of room for contemplation about working with Cerberus, but my own reasons boiled down to the fact that my Shepard is not an ideologist, not a *paragon*... and Cerberus were actively working to stop the Reapers when nobody else would. They might be distasteful, but they are the best allies she has.

[fluffywalrus]

That's the weird thing about the death scene in ME2. it was a great moment, really memorable, and set up a nice little credits slideshow thing, and gave the player a nice segue into the game.

But within a work of non-interactive fiction...gameplay immersion is less important obviously, and the legacy of such a strong moment is made more important. I agree that it didn't really go anywhere but let itself be used as a vehicle to
-Get Shep into Cerberus and away from the control of the Alliance/Council, allowing them to explore the terminus and the rest of the galaxy and meet new people.
-Show off visual effects of paragon/renegade through slightly unoptimized facial healing implants that show or reveal surgical scars due to magical mood shifts and behaviour.
-Undermine credibility of Reaper threat even moreso, with Shep's work out of the spotlight and Shep's work with a terrorist group, setting up a naive, unprepared council for a rude awakening in ME3.

There are some good bits of it, but nothing powerful. Nothing that needed a death.

Thus, even though i am a ways away from my ME2 arc, i've been slowly working on a more...cohesive way to begin that part of the timeline. if I can keep the death...I will. I think it can be worthwhile, if challenging. I can't help but fear I'll end up having to make changes that will ****** a lot of people off...

[MrStoob]

I've not really had a 'death scene' per se. Though for my post-ME3 sequel, I've been pretty ambiguous about who survived the Sol/London assault apart from one. Hmmm, (sudden inspiration), London/Sol flashback to clean up what happened? I've been in need of inspiration for some time.

On the topic of...

How's your motivation doing now that the circle is complete and there is no more Shep to be had? I feel mine waning...