A question of semantics. I was going through the Mass Effect Wiki pages, and in the Asari entry it said that during reproduction the Asari sends and receives electrical impulses through direct contact with the skin. But if my memory serves, in the first game when talking with Liara about it, she said that "physical contact may or may not be involved." Which one would writers here consider the "canon" choice between the two? While the first makes more sense biologically, since the process seems to involve a fusion of consciousnesses, I suppose it might not require direct physical contact.
Opinions?
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lillitheris
, mai 26 2012 06:28
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#677
Posté 11 juin 2012 - 08:17
fainmaca
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@Drussius:
I seem to recall Liara's words having more of an implication that the physical 'act' wasn't needed for them to reproduce. In other words, no humpy-humpy needed. I took that to mean that simply being close, a tender embrace or something, was enough.
Without physical contact, I can't really envision the science behind the process, and I feel that ebbs more towards space magic.
I once wrote this as my theory on how the Ardat-Yakshi work, and I reckon it works pretty well to establish a base for normal Asari meldings:
I seem to recall Liara's words having more of an implication that the physical 'act' wasn't needed for them to reproduce. In other words, no humpy-humpy needed. I took that to mean that simply being close, a tender embrace or something, was enough.
Without physical contact, I can't really envision the science behind the process, and I feel that ebbs more towards space magic.
I once wrote this as my theory on how the Ardat-Yakshi work, and I reckon it works pretty well to establish a base for normal Asari meldings:
It's a commonly held belief among the Asari that an individual's chances of surviving an encounter with an Ardat-Yakshi increase with physical or biotic ability. While an interesting and reasonable thesis, this is entirely incorrect. Given the fact that the survival rate of such encounters is absolutely nil, no effort has been made to study the affliction in action. This means that Asari understanding of the condition is lacking at best, but it is not completely absent.
One Asari scientist, Jeysrilla Holas, managed to gather a significant amount of data. An Ardat-Yakshi who had managed to avoid detection and imprisonment, Jeysrilla could not control her addiction, but she was strong-willed enough to study it with the hopes of finding a cure. She lured her victims into lairs that were actually disguised laboratories where she accumulated a vast collection of scans, tissue samples and visual recordings of every shameful encounter.
It was through these readings that she managed to deduce the true method by which an Ardat-Yakshi kills her prey, making a discovery that, had she not been forced to hide it from the wider Asari society, would have advanced the Asari Republics' understanding of the affliction by several centuries.
She discovered that, when she makes the connection between her own nervous system and that of her victim, the Ardat-Yakshi's DNA reverses the melding process. Where a normal Asari would obtain randomised genetic data from her partner to rewrite her own DNA to create a new life-form, the Ardat-Yakshi instead deposits her own set of randomised data, forcing it upon her partner's body. The victim's body then reacts to the corrupt data violently, attempting to eliminate it as it spreads through the entire body. This encourages an overload of the victim's nervous system, leading to a total irreversible shutdown of the brain, killing the victim. This, Jeysrilla realised, explained why every Ardat-Yakshi was incapable of spawning, unable to receive the necessary data from their partners to create a child, and also went a large way towards explaining the Ardat-Yakshi's ability to dominate their victims, their bodies already transmitting information at a distance via pheromones to confuse and subjugate potential partners.
Although Jeysrilla was eventually found and executed by Namirra Kelsin of the Order of the Justicars, her work was preserved, stored away in a secure vault deep beneath Serrice's largest military research complex. It remains there to this day, no Asari scientist willing to delve into the data that was obtained by such reprehensible means, and yet unwilling to dispose of it because of its potential value.
Had anyone been willing to peer into the research notes of the mass-murderer, though, they would soon have realised the fallacy of the idea that the size or strength of the victim affects their chances of survival. Once the melding has begun, the Ardat-Yakshi's corrupted DNA has already commenced uploading a biological computer virus that is capable of spreading through the victim almost instantaneously, able to complete its own coding if the upload is cut off, able to corrupt the most robust of physiologies. Once the connection has truly been established, the victim's death is only a matter of time.
#678
Posté 11 juin 2012 - 08:38
dpMeggers
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Drussius wrote...
A question of semantics. I was going through the Mass Effect Wiki pages, and in the Asari entry it said that during reproduction the Asari sends and receives electrical impulses through direct contact with the skin. But if my memory serves, in the first game when talking with Liara about it, she said that "physical contact may or may not be involved." Which one would writers here consider the "canon" choice between the two? While the first makes more sense biologically, since the process seems to involve a fusion of consciousnesses, I suppose it might not require direct physical contact.
Opinions?
Personal Opinions/Guessing follows:
Well, you don't have to be directly touching something to recieve an electrical impusle that contacts your skin (eg: static shock) so I would go with Liara in that they don't have to be touching. And when Shepard/Liara, Shepard/Shiala meld, which can be done without mating, they don't need to touch.
On the other hand, if an asari and her mate care about each other and are melding in order to have a child, and the asari's mate shows affection through touch, there would probably be touching involved. So if the mate is a human, turian (I'm guessing because Garrus knows how to hug) or a quarian (unlikely but possible) they will likely touch their partner because of convention in the partner's species?
#679
Posté 11 juin 2012 - 08:41
MrStoob
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dpMeggers wrote...
Drussius wrote...
A question of semantics. I was going through the Mass Effect Wiki pages, and in the Asari entry it said that during reproduction the Asari sends and receives electrical impulses through direct contact with the skin. But if my memory serves, in the first game when talking with Liara about it, she said that "physical contact may or may not be involved." Which one would writers here consider the "canon" choice between the two? While the first makes more sense biologically, since the process seems to involve a fusion of consciousnesses, I suppose it might not require direct physical contact.
Opinions?
Personal Opinions/Guessing follows:
Well, you don't have to be directly touching something to recieve an electrical impusle that contacts your skin (eg: static shock) so I would go with Liara in that they don't have to be touching. And when Shepard/Liara, Shepard/Shiala meld, which can be done without mating, they don't need to touch.
On the other hand, if an asari and her mate care about each other and are melding in order to have a child, and the asari's mate shows affection through touch, there would probably be touching involved. So if the mate is a human, turian (I'm guessing because Garrus knows how to hug) or a quarian (unlikely but possible) they will likely touch their partner because of convention in the partner's species?
And if the codex/dialogue is vague or conflicting, then it's your call I reckon.
#680
Posté 11 juin 2012 - 08:43
lillitheris
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First, separate three concepts:
1. Melding — this is just your garden variety mind link.
2. Joining — sexual version of the Meld.
3. Conception — presumably a specialized path in a Joining.
The first two do not require contact, but the third one could need it because (spacemagic) it’s used to actually work with the other’s DNA.
…
@fainmaca I kind of like your idea, but I have to say it really doesn’t work for me even on a pseudo-scientific level. If you were to change someone’s DNA on the fly, they probably would die, but most likely only when the RNA was used to create new cells — somewhat equivalent to genetic damage from radiation and so on.
Wasn’t the AY explained somewhere, or am I incorporating fanfic? Conceptually the easiest way to explain it — this is how I thought about doing it if I ever did need to explain — was that while the normal Meld only reaches the somatic nervous system, the AY lack the necessary control and take over the autonomous nervous system which governs the heart, respiration etc., and either because of inability to keep it going or due to the system not returning to the ‘owner’ when the Meld ends.
This is obviously handwavy and imprecise about the areas actually activated in the Meld, but I’m sure you see the basic principle.
1. Melding — this is just your garden variety mind link.
2. Joining — sexual version of the Meld.
3. Conception — presumably a specialized path in a Joining.
The first two do not require contact, but the third one could need it because (spacemagic) it’s used to actually work with the other’s DNA.
…
@fainmaca I kind of like your idea, but I have to say it really doesn’t work for me even on a pseudo-scientific level. If you were to change someone’s DNA on the fly, they probably would die, but most likely only when the RNA was used to create new cells — somewhat equivalent to genetic damage from radiation and so on.
Wasn’t the AY explained somewhere, or am I incorporating fanfic? Conceptually the easiest way to explain it — this is how I thought about doing it if I ever did need to explain — was that while the normal Meld only reaches the somatic nervous system, the AY lack the necessary control and take over the autonomous nervous system which governs the heart, respiration etc., and either because of inability to keep it going or due to the system not returning to the ‘owner’ when the Meld ends.
This is obviously handwavy and imprecise about the areas actually activated in the Meld, but I’m sure you see the basic principle.
Modifié par lillitheris, 11 juin 2012 - 08:44 .
#681
Posté 11 juin 2012 - 08:51
noxiuniversitas1
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Drussius wrote...
A question of semantics. I was going through the Mass Effect Wiki pages, and in the Asari entry it said that during reproduction the Asari sends and receives electrical impulses through direct contact with the skin. But if my memory serves, in the first game when talking with Liara about it, she said that "physical contact may or may not be involved." Which one would writers here consider the "canon" choice between the two? While the first makes more sense biologically, since the process seems to involve a fusion of consciousnesses, I suppose it might not require direct physical contact.
Opinions?
No idea about the intended asari lore, but in answer to your question on which makes sense biologically, then it would have to be the former. Nerve conduction relies on current generation +/- chemical secretion at junctions. So, unless a chemical was secreted which is capable of crossing the air to the partner's skin, and then able to overcome the barrier presented by said skin (no small feat), physical contact would be required.
#682
Posté 11 juin 2012 - 08:54
Drussius
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Thank you all for the rather quick responses and opinions. While I am still in the outline portion of beginning work on my fanfic and am refining my ideas, this topic came up as one I needed more information on, and my research gave me the two conflicting pieces of data. I tend to lean toward the first, as most of you seem to, that direct contact would be required for a joining meaningful enough to result in conception, and I see that most people so far have tended to agree. But the outside opinions are definitely helpful in allowing me to cement my decision. Much appreciated.
#683
Posté 11 juin 2012 - 08:54
noxiuniversitas1
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lillitheris wrote...
@fainmaca I kind of like your idea, but I have to say it really doesn’t work for me even on a pseudo-scientific level. If you were to change someone’s DNA on the fly, they probably would die, but most likely only when the RNA was used to create new cells — somewhat equivalent to genetic damage from radiation and so on.
Making changes to DNA on the fly is actually done quite often through viral vectors in research today. It's usually not fatal, so assuming localised targeting and extraction / integration techniques have improved in a couple of centuries (not unfathomable given how far we've come in 50 odd years of genetics), its entirely plausible from a scientific perspective. The RNA transcription / translation is irrelevant as long as the inserted sequence codes for something viable and does not disrupt a gene essentail to that cell. Given the amount of junk DNA lying around, not hard to do.
#684
Posté 11 juin 2012 - 09:01
lillitheris
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noxiuniversitas1 wrote...
lillitheris wrote...
@fainmaca I kind of like your idea, but I have to say it really doesn’t work for me even on a pseudo-scientific level. If you were to change someone’s DNA on the fly, they probably would die, but most likely only when the RNA was used to create new cells — somewhat equivalent to genetic damage from radiation and so on.
Making changes to DNA on the fly is actually done quite often through viral vectors in research today. It's usually not fatal, so assuming localised targeting and extraction / integration techniques have improved in a couple of centuries (not unfathomable given how far we've come in 50 odd years of genetics), its entirely plausible from a scientific perspective. The RNA transcription / translation is irrelevant as long as the inserted sequence codes for something viable and does not disrupt a gene essentail to that cell. Given the amount of junk DNA lying around, not hard to do.
Premise includes that the change is significantly detrimental
#685
Posté 11 juin 2012 - 09:05
noxiuniversitas1
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lillitheris wrote...
Premise includes that the change is significantly detrimental
My bad, had not read the mini-fic. Still, DNA damage does not require transcription for cell death. Apoptosis can be triggered by damage surveillance mechanisms during certain cell cycle phases (notably the S phase).
#686
Posté 11 juin 2012 - 09:09
fainmaca
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Well I'm not all that well clued up on exactly how genetics worked, but I pictured the actual change as triggering such a violent reaction from the body that the victim's defences literally kill themselves through overreaction. Nuking every rabbit hole in the country, so to speak. It wasn't the data itself that caused the reaction, just the fact that it didn't belong and it managed to spread through the body so quickly. I think maybe the best way to describe it is the change makes you fatally allergic to your own DNA.
I imagine any qualified geneticist would be sobbing into their palms by now. Space magic, yo!
I imagine any qualified geneticist would be sobbing into their palms by now. Space magic, yo!
#687
Posté 11 juin 2012 - 09:12
noxiuniversitas1
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fainmaca wrote...
I imagine any qualified geneticist would be sobbing into their palms by now. Space magic, yo!
sci-fi =
Anyway your description is not so far removed from reality that it's unbelievable. That's all I was trying to say. I've read it now and I like it, especially the context of how the data was obtained
#688
Posté 11 juin 2012 - 09:14
fainmaca
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Think of it like this: I once installed a powerful anti-virus program on an old computer of mine. The installation was halted halfway through by a power cut, so somehow it ended up with the security settings/blocks installed, but no interface to change them. For some reason, the software was stuck on the highest setting, and patrolled my PC with such militant scrutiny that the machine slowed to a crawl (45 minute startup). Then, it began seeing any program I started up as a threat, and promptly quarantined it (couldn't access the internet to check its own database of what was safe/what wasn't). It got so bad, my PC might as well have been dead. I think of the A-Y data insertion as the same thing.
#689
Posté 11 juin 2012 - 09:17
fainmaca
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noxiuniversitas1 wrote...
fainmaca wrote...
I imagine any qualified geneticist would be sobbing into their palms by now. Space magic, yo!
sci-fi =
Anyway your description is not so far removed from reality that it's unbelievable. That's all I was trying to say. I've read it now and I like it, especially the context of how the data was obtained
Thanks!
Maybe someday I or another writer who would like to add to the story continuity could expand on the A-Y studying her condition. That might actually be pretty cool. a story of a fugitive, struggling with her own urges while trying to find a cure, or at least understanding. Constant flight from a ceaseless pursuer, ending in a futile demise, with all of her discoveries coming to nothing in a warehouse somewhere.
Not exactly sunshine and bunnies, but if done right it'd be a hell of a ride.
#690
Posté 11 juin 2012 - 09:27
noxiuniversitas1
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I agree - and it would definitely be something I'd be interested in! Oh and if she caught herself in Shep's cross-hairs at one point... 
#691
Posté 11 juin 2012 - 09:30
lillitheris
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noxiuniversitas1 wrote...
lillitheris wrote...
Premise includes that the change is significantly detrimental
My bad, had not read the mini-fic. Still, DNA damage does not require transcription for cell death. Apoptosis can be triggered by damage surveillance mechanisms during certain cell cycle phases (notably the S phase).
Wouldn’t death by apoptosis (hypo/hyper) still be a slow(ish) process? Talking at least hours at best. (Edit: or worst.)
…
Edit2: I should be writing
Modifié par lillitheris, 11 juin 2012 - 09:32 .
#692
Posté 11 juin 2012 - 09:33
noxiuniversitas1
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lillitheris wrote...
Wouldn’t death by apoptosis (hypo/hyper) still be a slow(ish) process? Talking at least hours at best. (Edit: or worst.)
It's actually fairly quick, but the ultimate timecourse is dependent on which one of the multitude of signalling pathways is activated.
#693
Posté 11 juin 2012 - 09:36
fainmaca
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noxiuniversitas1 wrote...
I agree - and it would definitely be something I'd be interested in! Oh and if she caught herself in Shep's cross-hairs at one point...
I may post a request in my main thread for volunteers, then. I'm looking to get a bunch of writers involved in expanding around the main fic to create a much larger fanon here, with other writers supplying things to expand smaller characters I mention around the edges, show what other characetrs were doing behind the scenes while Shepard's on a mission (e.g. I'm considering getting a few people to write about different squaddies and what they did on Tuchanka during the Battle of the Draktarra Plains. Maybe even some Krogan OCs and how they contributed to the battle on their front.)
My goal is to create a huge alternate continuity here that people can participate in.
#694
Posté 11 juin 2012 - 09:38
noxiuniversitas1
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fainmaca wrote...
My goal is to create a huge alternate continuity here that people can participate in.
Very admirable - I hope you can get it off the ground!
On that note... I'm shattered, so g'night, folks
#695
Posté 11 juin 2012 - 09:58
almondroy
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dpMeggers wrote...
noxiuniversitas1 wrote...
dpMeggers wrote...
@Icyflare: I can't say that I've ever gotten to that point no. Usually I just walk away and take a break long before then.
Does anyone have tips for writing combat? Or do they know of a fic which has well written combat so I can get some inspiration?
Heya, any specific type of combat you have in mind?
Lol. All of them really.
At the moment, it has more of an urban warfare feel (Skyllian Blitz). But later I'm going to be writing from ME1 and that's more of an agressive firesquad in mutliple terrains.
Crazy idea...have you considered seeing if something like Paintball or Laser Tag is available in your area? It might be a useful learning tool, even if you just watch a game rather than playing.
#696
Posté 11 juin 2012 - 10:01
Drussius
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More questions...
The timeline of the events of ME3 is a bit vague and I can't find a detailed timeline anywhere. I'm trying to figure out how much time passed from the Reapers hitting Batarian space, to the assault on Earth, to Palavan, the Genophage Cure, the Quarian/Geth war, the Fall of Thessia, and so forth.
Does anyone know where a timeline exists? (I checked the ME Wiki pages already, and their timeline pretty much stops at the invasion of earth). If I'm to set a story parallel to the events of ME3, I need to either figure out the timeline, or I need to make it up. I have no problem with the latter provided I can figure out the rough travel times from place to place, but if there is an established timeline somewhere, I'd rather use it.
The timeline of the events of ME3 is a bit vague and I can't find a detailed timeline anywhere. I'm trying to figure out how much time passed from the Reapers hitting Batarian space, to the assault on Earth, to Palavan, the Genophage Cure, the Quarian/Geth war, the Fall of Thessia, and so forth.
Does anyone know where a timeline exists? (I checked the ME Wiki pages already, and their timeline pretty much stops at the invasion of earth). If I'm to set a story parallel to the events of ME3, I need to either figure out the timeline, or I need to make it up. I have no problem with the latter provided I can figure out the rough travel times from place to place, but if there is an established timeline somewhere, I'd rather use it.
#697
Posté 11 juin 2012 - 10:22
fainmaca
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Its all very nebulous, actually. I think this is mostly due to rules established about FTL travel times (even at 10x speed of light you're going to take some time to get across the Galaxy, and the Relays won't cover all of that distance in a single jump), and an attempt to keep it all 'fast paced and action-packed' by hinting that everything happens very quickly. These two ideas collide and cloud the issue.
If it were me, I'd say that everything from the fall of Earth to the firing of the Crucible takes a few weeks at least. Beyond that, you really need to dictate the timeline for yourself.
If it were me, I'd say that everything from the fall of Earth to the firing of the Crucible takes a few weeks at least. Beyond that, you really need to dictate the timeline for yourself.
#698
Posté 11 juin 2012 - 10:25
MrStoob
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lol I've spend hours on wiki trying to work this kind of stuff out. So how old would Shep be at X time? When did the Relay 314 Incident happen? How old would Liara be? When did Shep pass out of the N7 programme? etc etc
#699
Posté 11 juin 2012 - 10:29
fainmaca
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Bear in mind, this is essentially a war to end all wars. The two World Wars took four years each. Multiply that by every inhabited planet in the galaxy, and even with an overpowering force like the Reapers, it should by all rights take a very long time.
#700
Posté 11 juin 2012 - 10:33
Drussius
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MrStoob wrote...
lol I've spend hours on wiki trying to work this kind of stuff out. So how old would Shep be at X time? When did the Relay 314 Incident happen? How old would Liara be? When did Shep pass out of the N7 programme? etc etc
That's my issue as well. I mean if it takes hours at FTL speeds to get from one place to another in a solar system, and days to get from one system to another in a single cluster, I imagine the events of ME3, from leaving Earth to the return with the whole armada, would take a number of months. Plus, how long would it take to construct something as massive as the Crucible? I want to say 6 months for the whole thing, but something in me wants to say "No, not that long," while another part of my brain is going "Try a year!"
It's hard to say, really.
