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#7376
Seracen

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SO, I finally repurposed the chapter in my fic that I didn't like. It is so weird trying to turn certain scenes into completely different scenes. I was tempted to start over, but I still wanted the feel of the original version, just within different confines.

I even cut out half the chapter, and placed it nearly 20 chapters later in the story, reworking the reveal into something (hopefully) more dramatic. Of course, the crux of this all is that I still want the reader to understand the motives of the characters.

There's nothing I hate worse than being 30% into a series and STILL waiting for the plot to arrive. I'm not even bemoaning a lack of action, as there can be plenty.  I just need motivation for the characters to be acting how they are.

I am watching a show, Rahxephon. It's interesting, but I realized, halfway into the series, that I have no clue why the characters are acting in the manner that they are, why the world is the way it is, and why the war is happening in the first place.

Then I realized that I really wanted to avoid that in my own story, but I also want to avoid giving too much away too soon. So I solved this issue by having little plots within plots. For example, there's a definite goal that needs to be accomplished on each mission, but the overarching plot of EVERY mission AS A WHOLE has yet to be revealed.

I am hoping this approach works, and keeps the reader entertained. Does anyone else deal with stuff like this, and how do you approach/resolve this?

Modifié par Seracen, 09 juillet 2013 - 04:57 .


#7377
enayasoul

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Yeah, I pushed one chapter I had written out 5 or more chapters later because I wanted to establish the main characters relationship more before the big conflict with a past love. It did, however, create the 'when is shepard going to find out about so and so.' :-)

I had some chapters, recently, that come in earlier than I wanted to... the *evil guy* dying earlier than I wanted to but oh well, gotta deal with it... maybe I can turn that into a twist or something. Hah. I might get a few ughs from it. laughs. The readers really wanted him dead already.

I usually try to have the main chapter plot finished but also introducing another to move into the next chapter. Good or bad, not sure. They do, in many ways, connect with each other. May have to stop doing that so I can move time along with some stand alone chapters... or illustrate those passages of time with one month later or some such thing... /shrug.

My intended ending point is still three months out. Argh.

#7378
MrStoob

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enayasoul wrote...

My intended ending point is still three months out. Argh.


Hm.  Endings.  I don't envisage doing another book for my main AU, so how I end this one, well, ends it.  Hadn't really considered it that way until you posted that comment.  I mean, the end result of the conflicts and whatnot I know, but the state of Shepard and co.  not so much.  Hm.  Considering that might help guide me there I suppose.

Blue babies!  *ahem* :whistle:

#7379
YurigirlzCrush

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*ahem* copycat! someone has elcor girl envy! *grins*

I have discovered that my muse has adhd... *pout* I write at a glacial pace as is, with just over 4K words in a month, but just when I was getting into the swing of a ME fic, a walking dead marathon came along and shifted my creativity onto a whole new track. *sigh* does anyone else have this problem? it's hard to write a ME drama/romance when the only ideas my muse wants to whisper about are about surviving the zombie apocalypse!

#7380
Seracen

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@ Yuri: Hah, I know what you mean. Now that I am reaching the finish line of my story, each new chapter is getting harder and harder to write.

It's likely a combo of a few things: not wanting to leave the world, having to tie all the loose plots together, and making decisions that will affect how readers and characters view the actions I have written before.

Still, I'm chugging away, a chapter every few days. It helps that I at least know what's going to happen. Still, taking a break is also healthy for the writing, so hopefully you'll come back more refreshed and with new eyes!

#7381
MrStoob

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YurigirlzCrush wrote...

*ahem* copycat! someone has elcor girl envy! *grins*

I have discovered that my muse has adhd... *pout* I write at a glacial pace as is, with just over 4K words in a month, but just when I was getting into the swing of a ME fic, a walking dead marathon came along and shifted my creativity onto a whole new track. *sigh* does anyone else have this problem? it's hard to write a ME drama/romance when the only ideas my muse wants to whisper about are about surviving the zombie apocalypse!


Now there's a band name!  'Elcor Girl Envy'

I had a similar problem when I was playing excessive amounts of Skyrim.  So to get it out of my system, I wrote a short Skyrim fic.

#7382
Seracen

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Thank goodness I finally finished Skyrim. The bug hit me again right after the Ult Edition came out. Thankfully, I still had my old save, so all I really needed to do was finish the endgame and move on to the DLC content.

Of course, with all the fan content out there, I STILL have hours and hours left to play. Currently, the next few mission mods I intend to play will likely add 20+ hours to my docket in Skyrim.

In other news, another day, another chapter...YAY!

But why in God's name does my muse choose to inspire me at 3 AM?!?!?! Can't she hit me at a more decent hour? I swear, the time between midnight and the wee hours of morning seem to be my most productive...

PS: Elcor GIrl Envy does indeed sound like an awesome band name...now I need to think of more ME related product/organization names...

Modifié par Seracen, 10 juillet 2013 - 07:36 .


#7383
MrStoob

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Cerberus Sanitizer! For after those grimy visits to the alien infested Terminus Systems.

#7384
hot_heart

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"Omega. What a pisshole."

#7385
SwordofMercy1

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What is really sad is that I don't remember ever coming onto this thread... Why? -_-.
Anyway, I recently started publishing a project I had been working on for a while and thought I would post it here since a loooot of people on this site know of about the lore of ME and that's something I need, Basically I need fabulous people to help point out mistakes I made in my work.
Here's the link to the first chapter: http://www.fanfictio...ct-3-Redemption
Don't read the intro if you don't want to read my rant please. That's just me letting off steam.

#7386
Seracen

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hot_heart wrote...

"Omega. What a pisshole."


Haha, I kept remembering Zach Levi's breakdown on how aussies pronounce "o."  So hilarious, and awesome...



But hey, after visiting Omega, you'd need a wash with Cerberus Sanitizer!


SwordofMercy1 wrote...

What is really sad is that I don't remember ever coming onto this thread... Why? -_-.
Anyway, I recently started publishing a project I had been working on for a while and thought I would post it here since a loooot of people on this site know of about the lore of ME and that's something I need, Basically I need fabulous people to help point out mistakes I made in my work.
Here's the link to the first chapter: http://www.fanfictio...ct-3-Redemption
Don't read the intro if you don't want to read my rant please. That's just me letting off steam.


Congratz on starting the fic, and welcome to the thread!  I look forward to reading your work!  I shall try to give you a quick blurb on ff.net once I get time.

#7387
SwordofMercy1

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Seracen wrote...

hot_heart wrote...

"Omega. What a pisshole."


Haha, I kept remembering Zach Levi's breakdown on how aussies pronounce "o."  So hilarious, and awesome...



But hey, after visiting Omega, you'd need a wash with Cerberus Sanitizer!


SwordofMercy1 wrote...

What is really sad is that I don't remember ever coming onto this thread... Why? -_-.
Anyway, I recently started publishing a project I had been working on for a while and thought I would post it here since a loooot of people on this site know of about the lore of ME and that's something I need, Basically I need fabulous people to help point out mistakes I made in my work.
Here's the link to the first chapter: http://www.fanfictio...ct-3-Redemption
Don't read the intro if you don't want to read my rant please. That's just me letting off steam.


Congratz on starting the fic, and welcome to the thread!  I look forward to reading your work!  I shall try to give you a quick blurb on ff.net once I get time.


Thank you. Its nice to know that I'll get some feedback on my stuff.:happy:

#7388
Seracen

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 Apologies to SwordofMercy1, I was asked a question and ended up writing an essay, :pinched:!

I hope you can sift through it, and it is useful.  Still, I felt the urge to post it here as well, as I'd like to hear other opinions on the issue of OC's, and characterization in general...

ME3's roster is small. However, I think it ISN'T because of numbers, so much as richness of character. The reason nobody complained about ME1's roster was twofold: we are meeting the char's for the 1st time, and they have rich backstory and development.

Move to ME2: just like ME1, a few old favorites to keep us grounded, AND there's a plethora. So many, in fact, that we'll never use all of them, but they all have backstory to establish an emotional connection.

Now to ME3: we get LESS than we had before, even though a large stable of characters has been established. I would have accepted that most of ME2's crew was busy, except for two characters...

Vega and Javik. Let's face it, we just don't get any time to grow acclimatized to these people. Vega comes across as a boring caricature, and Javik comes across as an elitist jackass. Had we been given the time to enjoy getting to know them, it would not have been a problem. The [deleted] trial scene [for Shepard] would have alleviated that for Vega. We really needed a mission where Javik got to lay his ghosts to rest (even a "wipe out the remnant Collectors" mission), despite the large war. The specter of war killed character development.

The main offender here is that the hole left by those missing characters is filled by uninteresting new characters.

That segues into my next point, adding OC's. There's room for it, but I choose to do it in a memorable and logical way. I need to learn to love these characters, and they need to serve a purpose. Also, I want to avoid adding too many, and confuse the reader.

For example, I find it difficult to read Game of Thrones, b/c there's just too many characters in it, half of whom I don't care about. Seeing the show actually helped ground me in the lore, even though I'd read the books FIRST. My point here is: don't confuse the reader, make the characters distinct, but also give them personality and purpose.

In my own story, I actually nixed 3 or so OC's. Why? The ship was getting crowded (bear in mind I gave Shep and Garrus their own ships). It seemed wasteful to me to have so many people who did nothing.

I literally had ONE character who was around for ONE scene and served NO purpose outside of that scene. It was very difficult for me to cut her, b/c I liked her character. However, several things happened once I decided to remove her...

1) it got easier to keep track of the remaining characters
2) it gave everyone else something to do (namely the tasks that were slated for her)
3) b/c they had more to do, it made those characters more important

On the other hand, I fell in love with another OC that I had done NO legwork on, no premeditation on. He just grew from the exposition, and I couldn't bear to say goodbye. This also worked out well, b/c I still

1) had things for him to do (many new wrinkles I'd not considered before)
2) had new ways for him to interact with the familiar characters
3) raised new questions just by having him around

The character I cut will appear in a forthcoming story, b/c I have a good hook for her. The character that I newly created will not likely go past this current story, having served a grander purpose. At the end of the day, you have to do what interests you. Are you excited to write these characters? If you are, are they distinct and memorable? Do they serve a purpose, other than to be more bodies? You don't want them to be like Jenkins from ME1, a [empty] plot device and nothing else.

Incidentally, some of my crew don't even fight, serving a different purpose (Padok Wiks replaced Mordin as scientist, but never fights, staying on Normandy) . Even EDI is relegated to staying on the ship. She still has purpose, but the role of combat is filled by some of my OC's. Again, you have to do what speaks to you, but I always find characters with purpose and uniqueness to be the most compelling.

Sorry for the rant. To close, I'll leave you with my final crew list...

Shep's Squad: Liara, Jack, Ashley, Kirrahe, Grunt, Shiala, Javik, OC (plot related), OC (for fun, but has purpose), OC (plot twist*)
Shep's Crew: EDI, Joker, Chakwas, Donnely/Daniels, Traynor

Garrus' Squad: Tali, Falere, Kolyat, Miranda, Zaeed, Kasumi, Samara, OC (minor plot beats), OC (dramatic plot twist*)
Garrus' Crew: Padok Wiks, Cortez, [Dr.] Michel, [Engineer] Adams, Kelly

Some of the crew I never even address, I just know they are there in my head. Some of the OC's don't serve any other purpose than to prop up the other characters. For instance, Ashley and Garrus have a defining moment as affected by the OC's with the *.

Sorry again for the verbosity!

**************************************

TL;DR: do what you enjoy writing, and it will be fun for others to read!

I'd like to reiterate that I find necessity the mother of invention, there has to be a rhyme and reason for something's creation, be it character or plot.  It's fun to waffle about sometimes too, and that serves it's own purpose as well (it allows us a break and a breather).

However, it always comes back to your vision, your plans for the payoff.

Modifié par Seracen, 11 juillet 2013 - 06:26 .


#7389
MrStoob

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Good reasoning Seracen (keep wanting to type 'Saracen').

There's sooooo many characters in ME that it's hard to give everyone fair 'air time' so it's probably best not to try, so as to give the characters you do have something to say about the attention.

I've massively ignored so many of the crew, really because either:
a) the character holds little interest for me
B) my envisaged backgrounds and motivations for said character just don't really add anything to my tale.

I'm in the middle of developing a more fleshed out OC after treating one so badly in my previous book (baddie suicide - yawn lol). If played right, I reckon I could get her to 'main character in own right' status for my own work.

Warning: ponderous waffle ahead.

It was funny how this character came about, and I'm not entirely certain of my rationale at the time. I think I just wanted to give Ashley Williams a bit more depth than 'career marine with chip on shoulder'. So Sha'li the asari toddler briefly came into the Normandy's life via some convoluted 'side mission' and something is stirred in Ash, besotted by the young girl. They've bumped into each other over the years, I had her as one of the orphans that Conrad saved from Illium, that kind of thing, until eventually Ash becomes her guardian. Now Sha'li is almost matured to adulthood, it's become interesting to write a blank slate, beyond the mother/daughter dynamics, though Ash is now worrying that Sha'li may have picked a few bad habits from the crew. Hehe.

Oh, I remember why I wanted to waffle a bit about that now

Seracen said...
there has to be a rhyme and reason for something's creation, be it character or plot


I'm a bugger for not doing that lol. If I think something is interesting, I'll shove it in regardless. I think I was basically saying in that waffle up there that there wasn't really much of a rhyme or reason for Sha'li but in my haphazard improv writing style, sometimes random innocuous characters/situations you've thrown up in the past may be useful for the future, but not everyone likes such a lack of structure to their work. Part of the reason I basically had to create my one-shot side project, to keep the stranger or less pertinent stuff out of my 'main' works.

#7390
Drussius

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Seracen wrote...

I hope you can sift through it, and it is useful.  Still, I felt the urge to post it here as well, as I'd like to hear other opinions on the issue of OC's, and characterization in general...


From the context gathered from the previous posts, I'm afraid I'm of no help, as I've never put an OC into a fanfic based largely on the canon cast of characters. I guess, in that context, I would have to ask a few questions. First, is the OC at all necessary? Or could the things you want to accomplish with them be accomplished through the use of an established character (even if minor) instead? Second, Shepard and company are a tight-knit group, based on logical assumptions. They've been through hell and back together, and I doubt they would easily open up to many new people if they have someone on hand who could fill the role, which I'm guessing they do. It was really the only problem I had with the inclusion of Vega and Traynor in the new game. I didn't share many of most people's gripes with them, but I found myself wondering... What do I need Vega for? Shepard is a powerhouse soldier. Garrus is a great fighter. Ashley is a career soldier... What do I need Vega for? He brings nothing new to the squad. At all. Same for Traynor. I have EDI and the Shadow Broker. Why do I need her?

Now, with all of that said, I would probably put a whole slew of OCs into any story I wrote, but that's more because of my experience to date with writing than anything. I came into fanfiction bass-ackward, having been writing entirely original stories, settings and characters for going on twenty years. I believe I can say, based on comments from my story and feedback from years of running RPGs, that I am practiced with fleshing out characters. I am far more comfortable with original characters than I am with trying to work around established characters from other sources. But then I turned to fanfiction largely because I wanted a forum through which to gather feedback on the more technical aspects of my writing... not characterization... and fanfiction comes with a pre-assembled fanbase, which is a very convenient way of attracting readers. Of course, even then my first fanfic is almost all OCs, so maybe I hamstrung myself from the start in the gathering feedback department. Not that I am discounting the reviews I did get! I am eternally grateful for the people who read and commented on the story, and very happy that the response was mostly positive.

But the point I'm making with my random blathering here is that I started writing my fanfic to bring my writing to an audience for some feedback, when the majority of my writing has always been solely to get ideas out of my head and express my creativity, even if I never let anyone read most of it... And I do have a staggering number of short stories and unfinished stories on my hard drive that very few people have ever seen. I fully recognize that I need work on story pacing, editing myself, and other technical aspects I hoped to improve on. Pacing being foremost among them, because I am usually perfectly happy to write ten chapters detailing one single chain of events that takes place over the course of a day. Pacing is by far my biggest weakness.

Back on point, however, with OCs in established fandoms, as a reader, one thing I always find myself thinking early on, as with Vega and Traynor in ME3, is who is this person and why do they have to be there? If the entire cast is OCs and the story is set outside the realm of the fandom's canon events, that thought never occurs to me - which was why I set my story outside the events of the games with a largely unknown cast - but when reading about, for example, a fic about Shepard and company, it is one of the first questions into my head. As other people pointed out, OCs can be useful as plot devices, but it's nice if they can be more than that, and yet be a logical fit into the story.

Stepping out of the Mass Effect fandom, but as an example, I have to question when I read an X-Men fanfic: why do the X-Men need to bring along Jane Doe the invulnerable strong-girl OC, when they already have three or four people who fill this role on their team. Just the same way I have to question why Shepard is bringing Janira the asari biotic on board when he/she already has multiple biotics on the crew and Janira brings nothing new to the table except for being an OC the author created and wants to showcase. Don't get me wrong. Original creations are great. I fully support OC use when they accomplish something. And I would happily read a story based entirely around OCs if the characters and plot interested me enough. Just... as previously mentioned... they need to be more than an empty plot hook or a useless fifth wheel. Or at the other end of the spectrum, someone who is too awesome at everything (or even just too awesome at one thing) just so that they are relevant and useful to the team.

tl;dr: OCs are great given the right use. I doubt I could write a story without at least a few. But they can too easily be mutated into empty plot devices and/or their presence can be entirely unnecessary and illogical when inserted into a fanfic based mostly around established characters. So it's something that needs to be watched.

This is just one man's musings, so take it for what it is.

#7391
Seracen

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@MrStoob: I can totally understand adding characters you just like. I've written plenty of those. I generally end up working out some grand purpose for them.

Mind you, I don't think it's the only way to do it, it's just the way I prefer to do it, lest my writing get out of hand.

@Drussius: I also can appreciate re-appopriating existing characters vs OC's. In fact, I was as interested in turning previous NPC's into squaddies as I was finding something for the OC's to do.

I approach the OC's as I do the established characters, and found this serves me well in balancing them. In the past, that has not been my policy, and it affected my writing negatively.

Still, everyone has their own style, and it works for them differently. Thanks for the ideas guys!

#7392
Ignis Mors

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YurigirlzCrush wrote...

*ahem* copycat! someone has elcor girl envy! *grins*

I have discovered that my muse has adhd... *pout* I write at a glacial pace as is, with just over 4K words in a month, but just when I was getting into the swing of a ME fic, a walking dead marathon came along and shifted my creativity onto a whole new track. *sigh* does anyone else have this problem? it's hard to write a ME drama/romance when the only ideas my muse wants to whisper about are about surviving the zombie apocalypse!

Heh, I'm having similar trouble with my muse Yuri. The thing only helps me write about a ME Transformers Prime Beast Hunters crossover where Optimus ends up in the ME-verse just before the run to the Conduit at the end of ME3, and ends up fighting Harbinger to keep him distracted while Shep and co get to the Citadel, then uses the Matrix of Leadership to destroy the Catalyst and activate the Crucible which destroys the reapers but doesn't hurt the geth or Shepard. 
Sigh, sometimes I wish my muse was a  physical entity so I could slap it and tell it to focus on the other stuff. 

#7393
Seracen

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Ignis Mors wrote...

Heh, I'm having similar trouble with my muse Yuri. The thing only helps me write about a ME Transformers Prime Beast Hunters crossover where Optimus ends up in the ME-verse just before the run to the Conduit at the end of ME3, and ends up fighting Harbinger to keep him distracted while Shep and co get to the Citadel, then uses the Matrix of Leadership to destroy the Catalyst and activate the Crucible which destroys the reapers but doesn't hurt the geth or Shepard. 


@_@ Mother of God...it's beautiful...

Ignis Mors wrote...

Sigh, sometimes I wish my muse was a  physical entity so I could slap it and tell it to focus on the other stuff. 


Tell me about it, just spent my entire day swimming and then watching movies.  NOW it kicks in and says "let's write."  My muse is a fickle harlot sometimes...

Modifié par Seracen, 12 juillet 2013 - 06:16 .


#7394
MrStoob

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Seracen wrote...
 My muse is a fickle harlot sometimes...


Sander...?
:ph34r:

Modifié par MrStoob, 12 juillet 2013 - 08:30 .


#7395
Seracen

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MrStoob wrote...

Seracen wrote...
 My muse is a fickle harlot sometimes...


Sander...?
:ph34r:


Sander?  I'm afraid you've lost me my friend.

BWT, has anyone done collaborative works with other authors?  Any pointers for me, as that'll be my next project?

The only thing I can think of is setting deadlines.  With a collab, I also figure we have to have the whole story planned out, and then cherry pick the chapters we want.

:pinched:Of course, that "fickle harlot" has to stay with me to the end of THIS story first...:P

#7396
Ignis Mors

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Seracen wrote...

Ignis Mors wrote...

Heh, I'm having similar trouble with my muse Yuri. The thing only helps me write about a ME Transformers Prime Beast Hunters crossover where Optimus ends up in the ME-verse just before the run to the Conduit at the end of ME3, and ends up fighting Harbinger to keep him distracted while Shep and co get to the Citadel, then uses the Matrix of Leadership to destroy the Catalyst and activate the Crucible which destroys the reapers but doesn't hurt the geth or Shepard. 


@_@ Mother of God...it's beautiful...

Ignis Mors wrote...

Sigh, sometimes I wish my muse was a  physical entity so I could slap it and tell it to focus on the other stuff. 


Tell me about it, just spent my entire day swimming and then watching movies.  NOW it kicks in and says "let's write."  My muse is a fickle harlot sometimes...

Thanks, Seracen. I'm hoping to publish it this weekend if I can get it to a satisfactory quality.(It's not turning out as humorous as I was hoping, but the Catalyst scene is what I've got to write next, so that should help a ton.) :happy:

#7397
dpMeggers

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My two longest pieces are prequel fics...so OCs all over the place. And it seems to go ok. At least as far as I know. But on the other hand because it's prequels my OCs have very little interaction with canon characters. Honestly, I find that I'm far less worried about my OCs and the world than I am about getting the characterization of the canon characters right. But that's just me and my lazy writing habits.

#7398
Seracen

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Strangely enough, I don't generally have any more problems with canon characters, vs OC's.

What gets me is speech patterns. I mean, I think I can get a handle on most of the crew, but thus far, I've had problems creating the right tone for a few characters.

Matriarch Aethyta was the first difficulty, followed by Jack (I don't curse nearly enough), Padok Wiks (who is Mordin-Lite), and a Vorcha OC.

Luckily, I don't use Aethyta all that much, so I'm reasonably happy with her dialogue. The rest, however, still need a lot of tweaking.

#7399
MrStoob

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Capturing the character in dialogue is probably one of my favourite things (along with whiskers on kittens and brown paper parcels tied up with strings, of course).

I didn't use Jack much in the end, even though I originally had high ideas about Shep wanting to help a fellow troubled soul. It just never came up in the end. For her dialogue, yea, sweary, but always questioning, distrusting, self-absorbed, everything comes back to her in her mind, with a smattering of paranoia, except for moments of clarity when she reverts to the little girl who suffered much and she sees it all with those eyes for a moment. That's my take on Jack anyway.

Don't you ****ing analyse me, pencil neck!

Sorry, Jack... Don't hurt me!

#7400
MrStoob

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Seracen wrote...
Sander?  I'm afraid you've lost me my friend.


Sander Cohen, a psychotic artist from Bioshock.  He goes on a rant about his muse being a fickle ****.

And on your question, I've joined a BSN group doing the assault on Earth.  That's the only collab thing I've done.

I have wondered how a writer's collab might work.  I've done musical collaborations across the web and tried to draw comparisons.  With the musical ones I've done, a premise/theme is set, someone writes/records a bare bones backing track and other artists add what they feel expands the piece or whatever.  Then one of the group will get together the various parts to do the production to bring it together.

For writing, I dunno.  Perhaps strengths come into it more?  Like if one is better at dialogue than the other, or narrative, or whatever, then a scene could be agreed, and one will do a bare bones version.  For eg. the narrator strong writer writes a piece but the dialogue is only described, then the dialogue strong writer fills in with the actual dialogue, then everything tweaked by emotion-writer for feel.  Just pondering... it is Saturday and the weather is fine.
B)

Modifié par MrStoob, 13 juillet 2013 - 08:54 .