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[Seracen]

Lilivati wrote...

Sorry for the random interjection but I need to vent a little, and you're the only group of people I know who would understand...

I am two weeks overdue for an update to my story and every time I look at this chapter I feel like it's the worst thing I've ever written, up to and including the ten-sentence "story" I wrote in the second grade that was really just a rip off of "Little House on the Prairie". >_< And it's kind of an important chapter to get right too, as it resolves a long-running subplot I inserted into the story that is critical to how my Shepard got into her present emotional outlook.

I have no idea how to fix it. Even the things I meant to lighten an otherwise extremely serious chapter are turning into huge seriousface ordeals. And I'm worried it's waaaaay too over-the-top.

And meanwhile the update clock is ticking, and that little voice in my head reminding me I never finish anything is starting to cackle a bit. It doesn't matter that I was on vacation last week and my boss announced she was quitting and giving me all her responsibilities in addition to my own last month, both of which have taken a toll on my ability to put decent words on the page, it keeps telling me if I were more disciplined/organized I'd be able to keep up.

The story's just a huge mess right now lol.

I agree with enayasoul.  Just let the writing flow at its own pace, that's a lot of other stuff you've had to deal with.

I should have started posting more well before now, yet I decided that the quality of writing deemed that I delay until I am comfy with it.

Something that I've done lately is to write outlines, then flesh out scenes within it, in addition to the daydream process I usually have.

I'll even create a placeholder [fight scene here] on occassion, just so I can get through the other bits of the story.  I will say that I got my prime beta reader to do a treament of a scene, just so I could get a fresh perpective on it.  Usually, when I write a sequence, it's very difficult for me to change the architecture of it.  Rarely do I rewrite a scene to be different than it was before, it's usually grammar and flow corrections.

If you need a critical eye, PM me, and I'll be happy to offer an opinion.  I am at the point now where I feel safe starting to read other works again.

Best of luck!

[MrStoob]

Lilivati wrote...

Sorry for the random interjection but I need to vent a little, and you're the only group of people I know who would understand...

I am two weeks overdue for an update to my story and every time I look at this chapter I feel like it's the worst thing I've ever written, up to and including the ten-sentence "story" I wrote in the second grade that was really just a rip off of "Little House on the Prairie". >_< And it's kind of an important chapter to get right too, as it resolves a long-running subplot I inserted into the story that is critical to how my Shepard got into her present emotional outlook.

I have no idea how to fix it. Even the things I meant to lighten an otherwise extremely serious chapter are turning into huge seriousface ordeals. And I'm worried it's waaaaay too over-the-top.

And meanwhile the update clock is ticking, and that little voice in my head reminding me I never finish anything is starting to cackle a bit. It doesn't matter that I was on vacation last week and my boss announced she was quitting and giving me all her responsibilities in addition to my own last month, both of which have taken a toll on my ability to put decent words on the page, it keeps telling me if I were more disciplined/organized I'd be able to keep up.

The story's just a huge mess right now lol.

If it's not posted up yet, then no damage done, I'd say.  As someone who has posted chapters pointlessly in the past and damaged a story through it, I'd advise avoiding posting just because you feel you should if you're not happy with it.  I see it as a best case scenario to stick to a self imposed deadline, but from the crap you've had to deal with besides, I think you should cut yourself some slack and stop for a breath when the opportunity presents itself (I say it that way as you seem to have some RL stuff on your plate there).  Then look at what you've written again and decide if it just needs a tweak or something more drastic or whatever you think it needs.

2 cents 

[MrStoob]

It occurred to me today how much ME feels like 'The Ballad of Halo Jones'. I don't know if you all know it but it's a strip from the comic 2000AD about the heroine of the piece, Halo Jones' journey through the galaxy to escape the oppressive class system of Earth. I ****ing loved Halo Jones when they ran it in 2000AD and I'd highly recommend it to anyone who is into comics who hasn't come across it yet. The story is nothing like ME, but like I said, it just feels very familiar.

Oh, and one of the characters, so I don't know why I haven't really thought of if before, is called 'Glyph', but her story is beautifully sad.

Edit:

Modifié par MrStoob, 17 juillet 2013 - 10:24 .

[Lilivati]

Thanks for the encouragement.

I know you're all right about not letting self-imposed deadlines eat away at me, The story's become much, much longer in terms of word count than I initially anticipated. I'm enjoying writing it (except for periods like this ) but it's starting to feel like it'll never be finished.

I did some tweaking last night. Still not happy with it, still not sure the tone is good. Part of my problem is that while my Shepard has her own doubts and failings, she's a very strong person, and this chapter is putting her in a place of uncustomary vulnerability. Human beings are all occasionally vulnerable, but it's riding a line between that and not having it come off totally out of character. And there's an OC (an old former friend and colleague) in the chapter who is a complete ****, but I think I'm overdoing the work of pointing it out and it comes off feeling flat.

I'm a stickler for outlining- it's the only way I can keep my ideas straight over this kind of length. In this case maybe I'm just going to have to rewrite various passages a half-dozen times until they start sounding right in my head.

[AustereLemur799]

Lilivati wrote...

Thanks for the encouragement.

I know you're all right about not letting self-imposed deadlines eat away at me, The story's become much, much longer in terms of word count than I initially anticipated. I'm enjoying writing it (except for periods like this ) but it's starting to feel like it'll never be finished.

I did some tweaking last night. Still not happy with it, still not sure the tone is good. Part of my problem is that while my Shepard has her own doubts and failings, she's a very strong person, and this chapter is putting her in a place of uncustomary vulnerability. Human beings are all occasionally vulnerable, but it's riding a line between that and not having it come off totally out of character. And there's an OC (an old former friend and colleague) in the chapter who is a complete ****, but I think I'm overdoing the work of pointing it out and it comes off feeling flat.

I'm a stickler for outlining- it's the only way I can keep my ideas straight over this kind of length. In this case maybe I'm just going to have to rewrite various passages a half-dozen times until they start sounding right in my head.

I'll tell you what everyone else tells me (I tend not to take notice but it might work for you!); don't worry so much.  Helpful, I know!  

Take a step back and re-assess the situation. Do you know that I was sitting on something that took me six months to realise was two chapters instead of one?

It helps to have a second opinion/fresh perspective; it took a friend telling me that maybe the reason I couldn't seem to make my chapter come together was because I was a missing a scene. That was all I needed to realise that, actually, my chapter was actually two separate ones!

I also worry about deadlines. Not publishing for over six months really got me down, and I ended up just venting on here in the worst ways possible. Even though finally breaking through the barrier was a relief, it was also scary!

I'm already behind my next scheduled 'deadline' (I always set myself the impossible!  - maybe you do too. It's called perfectionism ). My excuse this time is that there's a summer heatwave and therefore too hot for my poor old laptop to withstand! (really I'm just a lazy waster, but shhh! ).

Is anyone ever completely satisfied with their work? Who was it that said 'writing is rewriting'?

I fully understand how frustrating it can be sitting on something that you just want to put out there so badly. But it really is worth waiting and spending the extra day. Thinking time is always good. Sleep on it - think about it in the shower or while at the gym (whatever works for you).

In any case; I'm sure the finished product will be worth it! Always remember that we, as writers, are our own toughest critics!

I'll likely never finish my story either; I often question what possessed me to start in the first place when I'm terrible at making commitments and seeing them through.

At the end of the day; your readers are secondary. If you lose sight of your own personal enjoyment, then I think that's a sign that things have taken a wrong turn. Just keep enjoying yourself and your writing, and you'll go far indeed!

P.S. Sorry for long post and any mispellings

Modifié par AustereLemur799, 17 juillet 2013 - 11:09 .

[MrStoob]

AustereLemur799 wrote...
P.S. Sorry for long post and any mispellings

Yay!

sorry...

[AustereLemur799]

MrStoob wrote...

AustereLemur799 wrote...
P.S. Sorry for long post and any mispellings

Yay!

sorry...

Was it that bad?

Sorry.

[Lilivati]

AustereLemur799 wrote...

I also worry about deadlines. Not publishing for over six months really got me down, and I ended up just venting on here in the worst ways possible. Even though finally breaking through the barrier was a relief, it was also scary!

I know exactly what you mean.  Whenever I've been unable to write for awhile, for whatever reason, it's exhilirating and scary to pick it back up.  (I do have GenCon coming up in several weeks... the writing seminars there are always a shot in the arm for both motivation and confidence.  So maybe I just need to bear with "summer syndrome" until then.)

I fully understand how frustrating it can be sitting on something that you just want to put out there so badly. But it really is worth waiting and spending the extra day. Thinking time is always good. Sleep on it - think about it in the shower or while at the gym (whatever works for you).

40-minute commute each way is my standard thinking time.  Problem is I've been so tired and overwhelmed from work I've not really been thinking about the story in the car.  Come to think of it, that may be a big part of the issue... hmm.

In any case; I'm sure the finished product will be worth it! Always remember that we, as writers, are our own toughest critics!

I'll likely never finish my story either; I often question what possessed me to start in the first place when I'm terrible at making commitments and seeing them through.

At the end of the day; your readers are secondary. If you lose sight of your own personal enjoyment, then I think that's a sign that things have taken a wrong turn. Just keep enjoying yourself and your writing, and you'll go far indeed!

I'm over 250k words in.  Originally I was planning to do the whole trilogy plus a post-ending, but honest to god, I am going to need a looooong break from the ME universe when I'm done with Beginnings.    Like I said, I am enjoying it, but when it's finished I'm ready to let my head live somewhere else for a bit.  I have a two-decade graveyhard of largely unfinished projects of various kinds, and so I am determined to finish this one just to prove to myself that I can.  

Sometimes I worry people will react badly to something I put into the story, but I try to always ask myself if it's true to my vision for the story, and if yes I keep it anyway.  (Though so far the only thing I've been "called" on was literally one line of dialogue inoffensively indicating Kaidan is bisexual and that was more confusion than outrage.)

Thanks for your post.  And by the way I am so happy that you managed to break your six-month block- I remember you posting about it and was keeping my fingers crossed you'd find a way through.

[AustereLemur799]

Lilivati wrote...

I'm over 250k words in.  Originally I was planning to do the whole trilogy plus a post-ending, but honest to god, I am going to need a looooong break from the ME universe when I'm done with Beginnings.    Like I said, I am enjoying it, but when it's finished I'm ready to let my head live somewhere else for a bit.  I have a two-decade graveyhard of largely unfinished projects of various kinds, and so I am determined to finish this one just to prove to myself that I can.  

Sometimes I worry people will react badly to something I put into the story, but I try to always ask myself if it's true to my vision for the story, and if yes I keep it anyway.  (Though so far the only thing I've been "called" on was literally one line of dialogue inoffensively indicating Kaidan is bisexual and that was more confusion than outrage.)

Thanks for your post.  And by the way I am so happy that you managed to break your six-month block- I remember you posting about it and was keeping my fingers crossed you'd find a way through.

Thank you for your kind words and your well-wishes! (they definitely worked!)

I also set out with the intention of writing a trilogy, and I also started writing companion pieces (that are, as yet, unpublished and probably always will be!).

I completely understand your desire to prove yourself, even though you have absolutely nothing to prove to anyone else because we already know your talent (like I said; we're our own worst enemies!)

While I can't compare to two decades-worth; I can relate to having unfinished projects from years ago. I started writing as a young teenager as an outlet, but I always wrote for myself and never with the intention of publishing (thank God! ). But my ME fic is different; but I even started that just for my own pleasure before it became something more. At the time, I was completely obsessed with the ME franchise; I lived and breathed it and wanted so much more from it!

In recent months, however; my obsession has definitely waned. It's partly to do with how ME3 turned out (but I certainly don't blame everything on the devs!); but mostly to do with how my own spirit and dedication has just taken a dip.

My own personal problem is that whenever I start something; I may start strong but I always peter out. I always fail at everything because I lack the dedication to see it through - that and I have a kind of fear (if I start off well, then I'd like to preserve that good state rather than tarnish it, if that makes any sense! ).

I can understand wanting - needing - to get away (especially if you've been so deep into it). Change is good (even though I don't cope well with it).

I really want you to see this through to the end - and not just for me or anyone else. This is for you - remember that it's always for you.  You can do it, but you don't need to prove anything to anyone else!

I know this post is already getting long (sorry! ); just don't get me started on the whole personal-touch-to-a-story thing! One of the big reasons I've been holding back is because I've started writing my own interpretation rather than honouring Bioware's story and I'm worried about what others will think of it.

While I'm being hypocritical here; I think that you should roll with your own story and be proud of it!

I'm worried that my own stuff is crap, but that doesn't mean that yours is!

The way I see it; we've already had Bioware's version. Fanfic exists to delve further and entertain/exercise the imagination. In this case: more - not less - is good!

Keep at it!

P.S. Again, I'm so very sorry for my long stupid ramblings!

Modifié par AustereLemur799, 18 juillet 2013 - 12:33 .

[MrStoob]

AustereLemur799 wrote...

MrStoob wrote...

AustereLemur799 wrote...
P.S. Sorry for long post and any mispellings

Yay!

sorry...

Was it that bad?

Sorry.

I was trying to be humorous about your comment on 'misspellings'. 

[Seracen]

MrStoob wrote...

It occurred to me today how much ME feels like 'The Ballad of Halo Jones'. I don't know if you all know it but it's a strip from the comic 2000AD about the heroine of the piece, Halo Jones' journey through the galaxy to escape the oppressive class system of Earth. I ****ing loved Halo Jones when they ran it in 2000AD and I'd highly recommend it to anyone who is into comics who hasn't come across it yet. The story is nothing like ME, but like I said, it just feels very familiar.

Oh, and one of the characters, so I don't know why I haven't really thought of if before, is called 'Glyph', but her story is beautifully sad.

Edit:

Ah, that glorious 80's and 90's aesthetic and sensibilty...it made for such awesome comics and movies.  I remember this, but I don't think I ever got to reading it.

80's Storm is still the most BA, IMO.

@Lemur: gratz on working through the block!

@Lillvati: there's nothing wrong with taking a break, even in the middle of the story, if you have to.  As I always say, if I don't enjoy writing it, others certainly won't enjoy reading it.  I use this as justification for a great many things, from choices in writing to decisions about how I'll go about posting, etc.  I found it's served me well.

Again, you have to do what makes you happy first, otherwise you'll always be editing to the point of mutilation.  I hope you find an approach that works for you!

Modifié par Seracen, 18 juillet 2013 - 08:30 .

[MrStoob]

Seracen wrote...

MrStoob wrote...

It occurred to me today how much ME feels like 'The Ballad of Halo Jones'. I don't know if you all know it but it's a strip from the comic 2000AD about the heroine of the piece, Halo Jones' journey through the galaxy to escape the oppressive class system of Earth. I ****ing loved Halo Jones when they ran it in 2000AD and I'd highly recommend it to anyone who is into comics who hasn't come across it yet. The story is nothing like ME, but like I said, it just feels very familiar.

Oh, and one of the characters, so I don't know why I haven't really thought of if before, is called 'Glyph', but her story is beautifully sad.

Edit:

Ah, that glorious 80's and 90's aesthetic and sensibilty...it made for such awesome comics and movies.  I remember this, but I don't think I ever got to reading it.

80's Storm is still the most BA, IMO.

2000AD was doing 'cyberpunk' before it was even a term ^^

[Seracen]

Ah cyberpunk. It's a lost mechanic for stories, sadly. Mass Effect had hints of it, esp that Blade Runner-ish soundtrack.

One of my friends told me about this game called Nikopol, which is based off the Heavy Metal comics (and a movie called Immortal, not the Henry Cavill one) that came from the minds of the creators of Fifth Element.

A few years old, these works, so I'm surprised I missed them.

Still, I recall the old PC games of Blade Runner, Hell, Burn Cycle, and others. Hopefully, CD Project's new "Cyberpunk" game will bring the genre back.

Honestly, I'm surprised it isn't done more often, as it's high concept and low budget. EG: that Guy Pierce movie, Lockout (?), was basically Die Hard in space. Now, the action was fun, and it LOOKED really expensive, but I imagine it was done on a small enough budget that it easily turned a profit.

The new Dredd movie may not be Cyberpunk in the purest sense, but again, I imagine it looks and plays a lot better than the budget would otherwise suggest.

While I'm at it, William Gibson and Phillip Dick live in that space, and movies based on their works tend to be entertaining, even if they aren't always blockbusters...

Johnny Mnemonic, Matrix (the 1st one), Minority Report, Blade Runner, Fifth Element, Total Recall are a few American works.

I love seeing it in anime, which has been more of the space for it lately: Psychopass, Ghost in the Shell, and a few others whose names elude me for the moment.

Anyhoo, good times. This is why I loved the slealthy/investigative/James Bond moments of ME, as it engendered hints of that old noir cyberpunk feel.

Modifié par Seracen, 18 juillet 2013 - 08:47 .

[YurigirlzCrush]

*waves* cyberpunk is one I know as an anime girl. but what exactly does noir mean? i've seen a few people use that term in connection to writing style and I don't get it. is it a certain type of setting or something?

[MrStoob]

I suppose 'cyberpunk' describes a distopian future, but the writing is quite politically motivated, littered with social commentary, ponderings on how technology changes 'man', dark and gritty, and usually quite brutal with evil governments and dark conspiracies. Hard to pin it down really. I suppose the 'look' gives it the name more than anything, because the regular folk of these tales are usually quite 70s punk looking but with a modern tech twist. Which, incidentally, was one of the 'visions' of 2000AD, being that it was founded in 1977, the height of the 'smash the state' punk/communal/anarchist movement in Britain.

"Do they owe us a living? Course they ****ing do!" (by Crass)

And having noticed now that Yuri was actually asking about 'noir'... lol

I saw some interesting thoughts on this when the BBC culture show did a piece about LA Noir the game.  They were saying that that is not really Noir, it's just based on LA Confidential, which is only a modern take on noir and not really part of the genre per se.  True noir, they say, is of an era, when the fiction was coming out in 'pulp' paper form and then some of the Bogart / Cagney type movies.  I'll leave an acutal description of noir to someone else though...

Modifié par MrStoob, 18 juillet 2013 - 04:33 .

[Seracen]

Well, there's 2 facets to both cyberpunk AND noir.

There's the perceived/stylistic idea of it, and the more specific form of story writing and presentation.

Cyberpunk, artistically, is represented whenever we see a futuristic environment that looks lived in. It isn't this clean, idealized utopia that we see in older scifi (which really was on the way out by the time I got into scifi anyway, Star Wars and Star Trek being the only holdouts, to an extent).

Visually, Blade Runner defines cyberpunk. Storyline-wise, it is pretty close as well.

Per dictionary terminology, it is "a genre of science fiction set in a lawless subculture of an oppressive society dominated by computer technology." Cyberpunk often deals with the every-man fighting the system.

Noir has a dichotomy as well. Ostensibly, all one needs to look "noir" is to have muted colors (usually black and white), and read like a pulp crime drama. Noir goes beyond cynicism and sexuality, however.

Good classic examples of noir could be old Humphrey Bogart detective movies (or Chinatown with Jack Nicholson). It invokes sort of this downtrodden feeling. All the chips are stacked against the hero, and they don't always pull out at the end.

Terms like "gritty," "edgy," and "hardboiled" were coined by the noir genre. It is one of those styles that is unique, in that it's different to different people.

The die-hards will say there's a specific series of things a work has to have to make it X or Y. Honestly, I am of the aesthetic school of thought concerning cyberpunk and noir. Art evolves over time, so why can't we, as writers/etc, change what it means to us?  Can't it be just as much about theme, tone, and presentation?  I think so.

I'll close with a few more examples...

Fifth Element isn't truly cyberpunk b/c it is too upbeat. The Untouchables (with Kevin Costner) isn't strictly noir, b/c it's too romanticized.  Blade Runner can be considered both cyberpunk AND noir, however.

That's not to say one is better than the other. I love all these films, although I didn't care for Blade Runner as a kid (certainly one of those movies you have to be in a mood for).

Now, if you are looking for a game that truly encapsulates this, there's the old Blade Runner game on PC, which was an adventure game, but there's one more that came out in the PS1 era...

Policenauts: an amazing game by Hideo Kojima which never made it outside Japan, unfortunately. However, for those lucky enough to have a copy, there was a fan translation released a year ago.

The game is truly fun, and has an amazing story. There are games that can't create as much atmosphere as that game oozes in the opening 30 min!

Atmosphere...I think I'll go with that. Cyberpunk and Noir are all about a certain sense of atmosphere.

Modifié par Seracen, 18 juillet 2013 - 09:29 .

[Fatiguesdualism]

@Seracen - personally I've always thought Blade Runner was more Noir than Cyberpunk, but to each their own.

For my tuppenny's worth I agree with Seracen that they both have an atmosphere [of despair almost?]
Or maybe it's a case of there's something missing, something positive (hope/humanity/etc). In Cyberpunk it's something that was taken from you, whilst in Noir it's something you lost.  Maybe?

It's kind of hard to pin down (well it is for me anyway!)

Modifié par Fatiguesdualism, 18 juillet 2013 - 11:05 .

[Seracen]

Fatiguesdualism wrote...

@Seracen - personally I've always thought Blade Runner was more Noir than Cyberpunk, but to each their own.

For my tuppenny's worth I agree with Seracen that they both have an atmosphere [of despair almost?]
Or maybe it's a case of there's something missing, something positive (hope/humanity/etc). But in Cyberpunk it's something that was taken from you, whilst in Noir it's something you lost.
It's kind of hard to pin down (well it is for me anyway!)

Actually, now that I think about it, I'd agree.  Blade Runner is more noir, as Deckard isn't really an underground agent fighting the corporation, but rather a cop that upholds the establishment (to a certain extent).

Still, there are a few elements of dystopianism found in cyberpunk, especially if you read the novels.

Although, if we are considering the novels, that is a whole can of confusing worms.

[Fatiguesdualism]

I think I read the Blade Runner novels a few years back (there was three right?) can't really remember much about them though. If you're talking about Do Androids...Electric Sheep, that's going back even further (and to be honest I preferred Blade Runner -philistine I know, but I can live with it)

[Lilivati]

There are (I think) clear aesthetic differences between noir and cyberpunk, but if you're looking for a difference in feel...

Both reek of despair against the grinding machine of human culture, and long odds of success. In cyberpunk the protagonist is nihilistic and doesn't care. In noir the protagonist, though equally jaded, cares deeply almost despite themselves.

[Seracen]

@ Fatiguesdualism: I can certainly see why one would find Blade Runner more accessible than Androids. I have to admit though, it all gets convoluted after a while.

[MrStoob]

Does 'THX 1138' count as Cyberpunk?

[Seracen]

Hmm, I'd definitely call it a dystopian future story. It certainly shares some thematic elements with cyberpunk. However, like Fahrenheit 451, or Brave New World, I never really viewed it as cyberpunk.

It just never seemed to have quite that aesthetic. However, that's just my opinion, others may indeed deem it cyberpunk. Also, I was WAAAY to young when I saw it, and didn't care for it much; so I'd have to give it another go before trusting my own opinions on it.

Modifié par Seracen, 19 juillet 2013 - 07:06 .

[YurigirlzCrush]

*smiles* thanks for the clarification on what noir meant. and I am clearly not as versed in cyberpunk as you all are. i've never heard of like... any of those movies or shows. at all. *sheepish*

[Seracen]

YurigirlzCrush wrote...

*smiles* thanks for the clarification on what noir meant. and I am clearly not as versed in cyberpunk as you all are. i've never heard of like... any of those movies or shows. at all. *sheepish*

It's okay, that just means you get to enjoy them for the first time, whenever you get around to it.  I almost have Elcor Girl Envy!!

If you want a good anime intro to some of this stuff, I liked Psychopass and Parasite Dolls (more noir).  The anime that got me into anime is Armitage: Dual Matrix, and it's very cyber, although not as much punk.