9962 réponses à ce sujet

[Fatiguesdualism]

Seracen wrote...

I'd agree that too much explanation into the innerworkings can ruin the story, just ask midichlorians...

I see your midichlorians and raise you a Heisenberg Compensator!

On the matter of creating the Relay network, I've always imagined that since the Reapers built them it was a case of sending a Reaper (or more - dealer's choice) to a system where they could extract/refine -from the local resources- what they needed (ores, etc) and then building a Relay.  Which could be fairly time consuming. 

edit - sorry still no fluff, instead I've got this

Three officers of the Systems Alliance Navy and the first human Spectre stood around the machine corpse lying on the deck of the Normandy’s sole shuttle.
“It’s very realistic,” the oldest of the three officers, a grey haired doctor, noted.
“Very,” the Spectre agreed, looking uncomfortable.
“The resemblance to Ms Lawson is flawless,” the doctor continued after a pause.  “If this copy was undamaged and stood next to the genuine Miranda Lawson,” Chakwas shot a quick, sympathetic glance at the Spectre, “no-one would be able to tell them apart – visually.”

Modifié par Fatiguesdualism, 30 septembre 2013 - 10:37 .

[Seracen]

Are we creating Miranda Lawson lovedolls? Or is this a submission to a newly created wax museum in the future?  Hmm...I can totally see Mordin doing the "Capt. Morgan" pose! 

Ah Heisenberg (I assume you meant Star Trek, but)...

I just watched the finale for "Breaking Bad," having never seen the rest of the series (I was hanging out with a friend who HAD to watch it). I DID see a "reader's digest" version of the series on youtube (BB in 10 mins).

I have to say, THAT is how you end a series (not the travesty that "Dexter" was subjected to), proof positive that you can have a "destroy everything" ending without leaving the audience resentful.

For that matter, if anyone saw the anime "Code Geass," that ending was perfect as well, even if it wasn't "happy."  Conversely, the ending of Season 2 of "Death Note" tried to chronicle the downfall of the villain, and did it poorly.

If one does not have worthy adversaries, one should be the architect if their own destruction.  Further more, it should be by their own volition/acceptance, if you go the "flawless mastermind" route.

Modifié par Seracen, 01 octobre 2013 - 02:03 .

[Efvie]

Seracen wrote...
I have to say, THAT is how you end a series (not the travesty that "Dexter" was subjected to), proof positive that you can have a "destroy everything" ending without leaving the audience resentful.

Personally, I thought it was a little too neat and tidy. A minor quibble in what’s been a great series, but I think we can find better examples of great finishers, if we try?

[Seracen]

Hmm...

Firefly's movie "Serenity" was a decent outing, as was Farscape's movie "Peacekeeper Wars."

Seeing as how I ignore the last 5 seconds of the last ep of Season 6...Supernatural had an AMAZING ending (I view all subsequent seasons as a "what if...").

Star Trek: TNG had a pretty awesome ending, IMO. It's hard to keep track of Babylon 5, but it seems to have a couple of decent possible endings (what with all the movies and spinoffs).

Dollhouse is an interesting conundrum, as it really needed one more ep for pacing, and I rather doubt I'd have enjoyed seeing season 2 stretched out over 3 seasons (as it WOULD have been originally).

Anyhoo, I digress. I think it goes to show how hard endings are, that I have to scrounge my brain for a series that truly ended perfectly, whether it be TV or games. I suppose it's harder, the more entries there are, as there are plenty of single titles and lone seasons that work fine.

GAH! Why am I here and not writing my finale!?!?!?! OFF I GO!!!!

[Fatiguesdualism]

@Seracen - Yeah I meant Star Trek. How does the quote go:

Person A: How do the Heisenberg compensators work?
Person B: Very well, thanks for asking!

I've come to believe recently that people devising endings seem to be trying too hard? It's as if the finale suddenly has to be seen as being memorable and dramatic and important (MD&I). Personally I prefer things a bit more understated, you've had the rest of your story to be MD&I!
I do agree with the idea that everyone's the architect of their own destruction though!

PS  Miranda Lawson lovedolls?  Groovy baby!  (Also probably makes more sense than what I've done too!)

Modifié par Fatiguesdualism, 02 octobre 2013 - 01:42 .

[Seracen]

Fatiguesdualism wrote...

@Seracen - Yeah I meant Star Trek. How does the quote go:

Person A: How do the Heisenberg compensators work?
Person B: Very well, thanks for asking!

I've come to believe recently that people devising endings seem to be trying too hard? It's as if the finale suddenly has to be seen as being memorable and dramatic and important (MD&I). Personally I prefer things a bit more understated, you've had the rest of your story to be MD&I!
I do agree with the idea that everyone's the architect of their own destruction though!

I think it is in direct relationship to how long the series/saga has been running.  More installments/sequels = more urge to BE EPIC!

For example, the ending of Deus Ex: Human Revolution sucks.  It is widely acknowledged, yet nobody raised that big a fuss over it, most likely b/c it was only one game worth of investment.

That logic might go out the window if we discuss Fallout 3 (and the "continuation" DLC), but that game had just as much investment as the ME trilogy, in terms of potential hours.

I haven't seen it, but I hear AC3's ending also sucked.  I imagine all THAT discussion was drowned out by ME3's DELUGE of debate.

For an author, I'd imagine the ending would be even harder.  I mean, there's the desire to finish BIG, the desire to just finish at all, obligation to the fans, writer's fatigue, and a whole plethora of other things.

I recall how refreshing it was on my ME3 fic, just to have the co-author fully write out two of the chapters for me to tweak (I did the same for her half of the project).  It felt like handing the baton in a marathon, and picking it back up after a break.

Fatiguesdualism wrote...

PS  Miranda Lawson lovedolls?  Groovy baby!  (Also probably makes more sense than what I've done too!)

Bwahahaha.  If you have them, you should totally give them strategically placed machine guns!

Modifié par Seracen, 02 octobre 2013 - 03:41 .

[fluffywalrus]

Seracen wrote...

For example, the ending of Deus Ex: Human Revolution sucks.  It is widely acknowledged, yet nobody raised that big a fuss over it, most likely b/c it was only one game worth of investment.

I definitely have to disagree with you there, I thought the ending was almost exactly what was needed.  I don't like how it influenced the ending of ME3, but I thought that in the context of DE:HR, it was a really nice fit.

Was it really satisfying? No. I don't think it was supposed to be, or had to be, though...but that's just my take.

[MrStoob]

I caught Peacekeeper Wars on scyfy the other day. Once I knew how they got out of the finale's ending, I got bored and found myself rolling my eyes at a lot of the premises/dialogue and didn't even watch it 'til its conclusion. The crew got on my ****** as soon as they appeared with the overload of 'quirkiness'. Anyhoo...

Miranda-dolls eh? I've messed with slightly less extreme examples of multiple Mirandas/Orianas, though Shep's initial reaction is that Henry was a very naughty boy lol. It doesn't turn out to be that way, I hasten to add.

@fluffy: you'll be getting LLL status soon... hehe.

Couldn't resist sharing this one.  I've been writing on and off still, though pace has slowed somewhat but sometimes inspiration of scenario hits.  Traynor wandering back to the Normandy on the Citadel encounters an altercation; a woman with a very familiar voice is being detained for being on a Cerberus watch list.  I've not gone much beyond that in my initial musings but I thought it'd be an amusing premise.  I'm toying with her name being the acronym... but that might be taking it a bit far.  Eleena Del Ingles anyone?

Modifié par MrStoob, 02 octobre 2013 - 11:18 .

[Fatiguesdualism]

To be honest I can't say I actually remember the details of DE:HR's finish. I recall there was a choice of three options, however things had gotten far too silly (for me - others may disagree!) long before then - but as for the actual choices, nada. I do remember feeling uninvolved though.

@MrStoob - Miranda-doll , singular  (Not sure my brain could handle multiple Ms Lawsons! )

Modifié par Fatiguesdualism, 02 octobre 2013 - 01:15 .

[hot_heart]

While they weren't great, I liked DE:HR's endings. Not so much the implementation, but that they were only available depending on whom you spoke to during that last section, were more of a reflection of your own ideology (sort of how you have to take ME3's) and your playstyle slightly affected the related narration.

Plus, the game really bolstered its thematic element with all the extra sidequests and such. It felt developed and meaningful, unlike ME3's hodgepodge of stuff matched to a Hollywood aesthetic.

As for the Dexter ending...well, I respect what they were trying to do, but the whole season was a shambles and despite the fact that the whole season is planned out and written in one block, they never properly develop anything.

Modifié par hot_heart, 02 octobre 2013 - 03:13 .

[Seracen]

Deus Ex: HR tried to copy paste from the original, which is why it fell so flat in my eyes. In the original, there were actual repurcussions and accompanying in-game cinematics to set the tone for what followed.

While I was too young at the time to appreciate the endings, they were acceptable. HR's "news montages" just sort of felt...bleh. I gained no sense of ANYTHING other than "I'm a badass for making this choice, here's a bunch of philosophical jargon to prove me right..."

I will admit thata DE:HR prepared me somewhat for the ME3 ending debacle, in that I acknowledged that the journey had been more important than the destination.  Of course, the mark of a great story is satisfaction  in both.

I'd say my fave endings are those that leave you with a feeling of closure, but with a desire for more. For instance, I can watch Full Metal Alchemist: Brotherhood, Sword Art Online, or Outlaw Star at any time, whereas certain other anime, while amazing, I have to be in the right mood for.

For books, my staples are Codex Alera (Butcher), Deathstalker (Greene), and a few Patricia Briggs novels. Dunno why LOTR isn't on my list...probably b/c I can't just read ONE book in the series, and end up marathoning the trilogy, lol.

It also strikes me as odd how I can be such a stickler for story, yet I have no such equivalent in gaming, instead falling back to "fave gameplay" as opposed to a story I would like to relive.

Modifié par Seracen, 02 octobre 2013 - 07:41 .

[YurigirlzCrush]

*pout* I feel funny changing subjects while another discussion is going on, but with school and all my time is soooooo limited, so... forgive me?

I am an inconsistent writer. I wrote a few chapters of my story, came up with an idea I liked soooooo much better for certain backstory elements of one of the characters, rewrote half of what I wrote, skipped ahead to write a series of scenes I really wanted to get just right, and then realized that if I don't have a plan with all the jumping around, i'll totes lose any coherent plot. *sigh*

so I wrote out a bullet point plotline. but in mapping out the general course of the story, I hit a little snag I need advice on. so here we go... *deep breath*

basically, at a certain point in the story, the two main characters (Liara and an OC) will have to have a discussion about a certain secret. and I know exactly when it would logically happen. the problem is, if the discussion takes place at the logical point, it will take most of the drama and suspense (for the readers) out of a later scene. so my question is... would it be reasonable to gloss over that discussion, dropping in just small hints that it had taken place, and then do a sort of flashback filler piece during the later scene to cover the events of the discussion?

for a little more context, the issue in question involves Liara being the shadow broker. she would have to tell her companion at some point, and is smart enough to realize that if her companion doesn't know, it could cause major problems when they go after their shared enemies. all the villains would have to do is tell her partner the truth and trust between them would go right out the window and their whole plan would fall apart... if that makes any sense. but during the later scene, the enemies in question wouldn't know that the secret was already out and try to use it as leverage. and I think I'll need to keep the readers unsure about whether or not Liara's partner already knows or not until that moment to keep the drama intact.

does that make any sense? or am I talking gibberish? *sigh* I guess i'm just looking for thoughts on the best way to handle a reveal that should take place in, say, chapter 10 if it's going to be believable, but is better left until chapter 15 for dramatic purposes?

[MrStoob]

Tricky one Yuri. I suppose you could imply that the OC knows without actually stating it, so there is an element of doubt in the reader until the pay-off. My mind turns to possible a conversation with a 3rd party who doesn't really know either way and some off-the-cuff or ambiguous remarks from OC?  But then you don't get your declaration scene between Liara/OC.  Hm...

Modifié par MrStoob, 03 octobre 2013 - 08:34 .

[Efvie]

YurigirlzCrush wrote...

basically, at a certain point in the story, the two main characters (Liara and an OC) will have to have a discussion about a certain secret. and I know exactly when it would logically happen. the problem is, if the discussion takes place at the logical point, it will take most of the drama and suspense (for the readers) out of a later scene. so my question is... would it be reasonable to gloss over that discussion, dropping in just small hints that it had taken place, and then do a sort of flashback filler piece during the later scene to cover the events of the discussion?

for a little more context, the issue in question involves Liara being the shadow broker. she would have to tell her companion at some point, and is smart enough to realize that if her companion doesn't know, it could cause major problems when they go after their shared enemies. all the villains would have to do is tell her partner the truth and trust between them would go right out the window and their whole plan would fall apart... if that makes any sense. but during the later scene, the enemies in question wouldn't know that the secret was already out and try to use it as leverage. and I think I'll need to keep the readers unsure about whether or not Liara's partner already knows or not until that moment to keep the drama intact.

Two answers;

First, I personally heavily favor realism over drama. I try not to let something spiral out of control when reasonable people would find a way to contain it, I defuse dramatic tension prematurely and so on. I suspect that it makes the story a little harder for the reader, and certainly less popular, but I don’t feel right writing any other way.

While I can’t recommend that course for everyone, the maxim of never compromising internal consistency for drama is one to keep in mind.

That said, I think that in this particular case it would work to leave the discussion hidden from the reader until this latter reveal. The thing that works in your advantage is that it is supposed to be a secret; this OC should not change their behavior because of this reveal. In another situation you’d have problems with hiding the change in the OC from the reader, too, and that might end up contrived or feel disingenuous to the reader. Especially if you can hide one or two tiny hints that the OC ‘slips’ (in a way that only makes sense after the reveal) I think it would work well enough.



(As an aside, I’m glad you’ve decided to play the Shadow Broker angle at least partly secretively. I loathed how in the game everybody seemed to know about it. It just would not work at all like that, she’d be compromised in no time. In my story, only Shepard and Garrus know. Miranda suspects because she was also on Hagalaz and she’s a smart cookie, but nobody else really even considered the possibility and bought the story about it only having been a mission to get Feron…)

Modifié par Efvie, 03 octobre 2013 - 08:43 .

[hot_heart]

I'm with Efvie's sentiment. It's just that hiding it from the reader, and with no obvious changes in characters' attitudes, still feels a little like cheating it; particularly if the enemy's then supposed to think it offers some form of leverage.

Problem is, the only other solutions I can conjure are the contrived sort where Liara tries to explain but never finds the right moment or isn't sure this person would see them the same way or whether knowing would endanger them. That sort of thing.

Would it not be more suspenseful to have the OC a little unsure of where their allegiances lie because of Liara's status? Obviously, I have no idea if this would work for your particular story, but I just think it might be worth exploring whether the source of tension could be shifted slightly.

Alternatively, the OC figured it out themself long before but purposefully left everyone else in the dark out of uncertainty? It still has the issue that Liara never thought to come clean beforehand but that way you still get that tense build-up and the option for dropping subtle hints as well as a dramatic reveal.

Modifié par hot_heart, 03 octobre 2013 - 02:09 .

[YurigirlzCrush]

Efvie wrote...

Two answers;

First, I personally heavily favor realism over drama. I try not to let something spiral out of control when reasonable people would find a way to contain it, I defuse dramatic tension prematurely and so on. I suspect that it makes the story a little harder for the reader, and certainly less popular, but I don’t feel right writing any other way.

While I can’t recommend that course for everyone, the maxim of never compromising internal consistency for drama is one to keep in mind.

i'm all for realism too. which is why I really can't just get all contrived and have things keep interrupting the conversation until it's too late. I mean... there's a lot of downtime between the logical moment and the moment when their enemies have a chance to use the secret against her. I just don't see it. *shakes head* on the other hand, it's a story, so drama is also a must. if the reader knows in advance, then the scene with the villains that I have planned out will have absolutely no impact at all.

but if you all think it could work with a few hints (like you said, it is supposed to be a secret that the OC knows, but there is no effing way she'd be able to fully conceal her anger, especially at first, so a few slips will be mandatory really) then i'll try to pull off that route.

tangent! i'm beginning to think I may have chosen a story that's overly risky for my first attempt. i'm running into insane amounts of things i'm afraid won't work if I don't do them perfectly... *pout*

still dancing around other possibilities in my head. maybe tension can be built up in another way without having to avoid that conversation. because it's one that I think totes needs to be addressed in the story, either as a flashback or at the time it happens. I can't just relegate it to a few lines of summary for reasons i'm about to mention. *points down*

hot_heart wrote...

Would it not be more suspenseful to have the OC a little unsure of where their allegiances lie because of Liara's status? Obviously, I have no idea if this would work for your particular story, but I just think it might be worth exploring whether the source of tension could be shifted slightly.

Alternatively, the OC figured it out themself long before but purposefully left everyone else in the dark out of uncertainty? It still has the issue that Liara never thought to come clean beforehand but that way you still get that tense build-up and the option for dropping subtle hints as well as a dramatic reveal.

I thought about it that way, but the problem is that the OC originally ends up crossing paths with Liara because she's out to kill the Shadow Broker (there's a lot more to the reasons why they cross paths and all, but that's the heart of the issue) and so it's something that absolutely has to be addressed beforehand. because if the enemy springs it on them in the middle of a tense situation, Liara would know she's more likely to get shot by her partner than the enemy in the heat of the moment.

Efvie wrote...

(As an aside, I’m glad you’ve decided to play the Shadow Broker angle at least partly secretively. I loathed how in the game everybody seemed to know about it. It just would not work at all like that, she’d be compromised in no time. In my story, only Shepard and Garrus know. Miranda suspects because she was also on Hagalaz and she’s a smart cookie, but nobody else really even considered the possibility and bought the story about it only having been a mission to get Feron…)

 well, the only one in ME3 who knew that Liara was the shadow broker that bothered me was Wrex. everyone else that displays knowledge of it was on the Normandy for 2. which meant they were aboard when the ship flew out to a secret shadow broker base to rescue someone, and were there when neither Liara nor their rescued friend ever left... and presumably no one was grief-stricken over their deaths, so the idea that the mission failed and Liara and her friend both died wouldn't fly. I think that leaves a pretty obvious connection for everyone aboard to realize what actually happened. they'd actually have to be kind of dense not to.

plus, cerberus originally gave the intel that Shepard handed over on the SB's whereabouts. so we can assume Miranda would have had knowledge of it in advance (as the cerberus liason aboard and all) and so forth. but Wrex was never on that mission. so he's the one person that seems to know and shouldn't. unless Grunt told him, I guess.

Modifié par YurigirlzCrush, 03 octobre 2013 - 08:46 .

[Efvie]

YurigirlzCrush wrote...

Efvie wrote...

Two answers;

First, I personally heavily favor realism over drama. I try not to let something spiral out of control when reasonable people would find a way to contain it, I defuse dramatic tension prematurely and so on. I suspect that it makes the story a little harder for the reader, and certainly less popular, but I don’t feel right writing any other way.

While I can’t recommend that course for everyone, the maxim of never compromising internal consistency for drama is one to keep in mind.

i'm all for realism too. which is why I really can't just get all contrived and have things keep interrupting the conversation until it's too late. I mean... there's a lot of downtime between the logical moment and the moment when their enemies have a chance to use the secret against her. I just don't see it. *shakes head* on the other hand, it's a story, so drama is also a must. if the reader knows in advance, then the scene with the villains that I have planned out will have absolutely no impact at all.

but if you all think it could work with a few hints (like you said, it is supposed to be a secret that the OC knows, but there is no effing way she'd be able to fully conceal her anger, especially at first, so a few slips will be mandatory really) then i'll try to pull off that route.

Emphasis mine. If you have to resort to contrivance to play into a particular plot point, it’s possible that that plot point is not a logical one

It sounds like you might actually want what

hot_heart wrote...

Would it not be more suspenseful to have the OC a little unsure of where their allegiances lie because of Liara's status? Obviously, I have no idea if this would work for your particular story, but I just think it might be worth exploring whether the source of tension could be shifted slightly.

This is not a bad idea at all, and possibly one you may have thought about already. The tension isn’t whether OC knows, it’s in how it will shake out in the end. This may also give opportunities for intermediate tension and building ambiguity. Maybe the OC is OK with the old Broker being dead, but not at all happy about Liara still using the same agents, or pursuing similar missions that caused the trouble before, etc. Or maybe they’re of the opinion that the whole job needs to be shut down and exposed. Or maybe they look like they’re biding their time to take the organization down from within.

…

Other than that, I wouldn’t worry too much… everyone has to wrest with these problems. All decent writers, anyway The crap ones don’t care about such things so you’re doing something right!

[hot_heart]

Efvie wrote...
Other than that, I wouldn’t worry too much… everyone has to wrest with these problems. All decent writers, anyway The crap ones don’t care about such things so you’re doing something right!

Exactly!

[YurigirlzCrush]

hot_heart wrote...

Efvie wrote...
Other than that, I wouldn’t worry too much… everyone has to wrest with these problems. All decent writers, anyway The crap ones don’t care about such things so you’re doing something right!

Exactly!

thanks for the encouragement, but maybe I just want to write a really good story but couldn't actually write anything more complex than...

see Liara.
see Liara run
run, Liara, run.

*looks around all sketchy like*

[Seracen]

YurigirlzCrush wrote...

thanks for the encouragement, but maybe I just want to write a really good story but couldn't actually write anything more complex than...

see Liara.
see Liara run
run, Liara, run.

*looks around all sketchy like*

Hey, at least it's an arc that progresses along logical lines.  As much as I am a Liara fan, BW really didn't accomadate a story to fit her character, but rather accomodated her character to fit the needs of whatever plot needed filling.

Even so, it was a missed opportunity that Traynor and not the FREAKING SHADOW BROKER was responsible for finding the Cerberus base at the end.

Even still, Liara could havend simply said "Traynor helped," if they wanted to gladhand the new fish so much.

Sigh...

Modifié par Seracen, 05 octobre 2013 - 07:19 .

[Efvie]

Seracen wrote...
Even so, it was a missed opportunity that Traynor and not the FREAKING SHADOW BROKER was responsible for finding the Cerberus base at the end.

Even still, Liara could havend simply said "Traynor helped," if they wanted to gladhand the new fish so much.

Sigh...

What, and have everyone wonder how Liara could have found it out instead of—logically—the Alliance intelligence happening to come across some information…?

[MrStoob]

There should have been more running from Liara, beside the Presidium lake, Baywatch styleeee...

That's the spirit, girls!



I had a moment in my trilogy fic where Liara rues that she is a ground combatant and cannot devote more time to her informational duties but is secretly happy Traynor is picking up the slack while Liara is at least able to arrange resources for the crucible and whatnot.

Modifié par MrStoob, 05 octobre 2013 - 10:03 .

[hot_heart]

The Alliance has intelligence?

Funny that Traynor tracks Kai Leng from Thessia to Sanctuary, even though the logs on Cronos show that he visited that station and spoke directly to TIM inbetween.

Then Miranda's tracker (or the logs from Sanctuary, if you're the sort of monster that got Miranda killed!) are used to find Cronos...

[MrStoob]

hot_heart wrote...
or the logs from Sanctuary, if you're the sort of monster that got Miranda killed!

Oh that first blind play through.  It was not a happy occasion.  I had no idea why Miranda died on 1st play, well, nor Tali TBH but that was another sad saga.  The conclusion of Rannoch was not fun while I stood there with Legion the doorstop and Tali having just chucked herself off the cliff, wondering if the Paragon interrupt was supposed to have done something or not, or if I missed the interrupt...

[hot_heart]

Wow, and I thought the 'best possible' ending was depressing enough...