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#8451
YurigirlzCrush

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well, I don't want to seem like I don't like your advice, Shotgun. but I'm not sure taking the villain for a real test drive will work for my story. I'm not actually sold on putting in scenes from their perspective at all. but that's mostly because my story is half romance between the two main characters and half intrigue story. I find myself wondering if shifting focus to the "villain," even for an occasional scene, might seem out of place since at least half (or more) of the story will be about the relationship of the protagonists developing while they work together to solve this other problem (the intrigue). *ponders*

if the villain and their defeat was a larger portion of the point to the story maybe I wouldn't be so ambivalent about putting the focus on them. but since my plan doesn't even include the protagonists figuring out who the real villain is until the last handful of chapters, I don't know if I want to go that route. I'm still just trying to figure out how to put a better spin on some of the scenes involving information being revealed and discussed so it seems a little less dry.


what? top post? again? *cries* the universe hates me! I'm going to have to go and do a final edit on my few finished chapters just so I have some fluff to post in top posts!

Modifié par YurigirlzCrush, 27 décembre 2013 - 06:15 .


#8452
MrStoob

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Even 'baddies' need credible motivations, though usually it's a case of a misplaced sense of entitlement, or perceived wrong-doing (with a little insanity thrown into the mix to justify it all). They're the Hollywood favourites anyway. And of course, good people do bad things, and vice versa. I like that grey line.

A good question to ask about the 'baddies' is, why are they doing what they are doing? 'Because they are bad' is a little unsatisfactory. They must at least be able to justify it to themselves somehow and I like it when that is explored.

Miranda is a prime example I think. She knows what Cerberus does is not entirely savoury, but for the protection of her sister she's willing to perform questionable acts. Does that make her a baddie, at least until she doesn't think she needs Cerberus' protection any more? Grey areas. :)

#8453
Seracen

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YurigirlzCrush wrote...

well, I don't want to seem like I don't like your advice, Shotgun. but I'm not sure taking the villain for a real test drive will work for my story. I'm not actually sold on putting in scenes from their perspective at all. but that's mostly because my story is half romance between the two main characters and half intrigue story. I find myself wondering if shifting focus to the "villain," even for an occasional scene, might seem out of place since at least half (or more) of the story will be about the relationship of the protagonists developing while they work together to solve this other problem (the intrigue). *ponders*

if the villain and their defeat was a larger portion of the point to the story maybe I wouldn't be so ambivalent about putting the focus on them. but since my plan doesn't even include the protagonists figuring out who the real villain is until the last handful of chapters, I don't know if I want to go that route. I'm still just trying to figure out how to put a better spin on some of the scenes involving information being revealed and discussed so it seems a little less dry.


I've run into a similar dillemma in my story.  I didn't want to give too much away of the plot, not did I necessarily WANT to devote so much time through the eyes of the villains.  It just wasn't what interested me, in terms of writing.

For me, they lose some of the mystique if you reveal too much, unless they are supposed to be the sympathetic semi-protagonist types, like Magneto or whatever.

As such, I generally devote just enough time to establish their desires, and why things are important to them.  I want them to be compelling, yet enigmatic.  Sometimes, I'll also add a scene to establish their prejudices, and also why they are hate-worthy.

I solved my concern by giving them small snippets in between other chapters, generally related to whatever the "heroes" were doing at the time.  This allowed me to set up the scene, and potentially explain the danger to the audience, so that they can be apprehensive when the heroes come across it.

Conversely, you could also do the confrontation in a non-combat setting, like the baddies are having a conversation that the heroes overhear or take part of via radio, etc.

My most utilized tool is to introduce henchmen, who then converse with the main villains before being killed by the heroes.  Occassionally, they'll escape, so we can revel in their demise later on.

EDIT: a worksheet I refer to gave some sound advice: for each victory/failure by the protagonists, perhaps have an associated denoument scene involving the gain/loss for the villains' ambitions at that point.  This allows an interesting back-and-forth, without having to devote entire chapters to it.


YurigirlzCrush wrote...
what? top post? again? *cries* the universe hates me! I'm going to have to go and do a final edit on my few finished chapters just so I have some fluff to post in top posts!


Meh, I just post whatever, never really felt the need to add extra fluff, as my posts are generally far too verbose anyways, haha :P

Modifié par Seracen, 27 décembre 2013 - 10:51 .


#8454
hot_heart

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Efvie wrote...
Also that assumes I’ll ever manage to write anything again.

Nooooooo. :(

You can do it!

MrStoob wrote...
Miranda is a prime example I think. She knows what Cerberus does is not entirely savoury, but for the protection of her sister she's willing to perform questionable acts. Does that make her a baddie, at least until she doesn't think she needs Cerberus' protection any more? Grey areas. :)

Hey, it wasn't just because of her sister... :P

Modifié par hot_heart, 27 décembre 2013 - 12:03 .


#8455
sH0tgUn jUliA

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Questions I have to ask is these: should I care at all about the villain? Should I be interested in the villian? Why? I'm wondering what makes this character compelling. The villain must be a compelling character. It doesn't mean I have to like the character, but I should be interested in the character.

Let me clarify what I mean by a test drive. It's a joy ride. Write a short story about your villain, and get to know your villain. The villain is the main character. Something totally detached from the story you're writing just to get to know the character. What brand of Scotch does your villain drink? Or does your villain avoid alcohol? What do they do for fun? Know their habits and how they operate. It's good to know these things even if in your main story your protagonist won't know who they are until the last part of your story.

I'm assuming the villain blends in with everyone else. This one is going to be difficult. Have some fun with him/her.

#8456
MrStoob

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I played with an OC villain at one time. He was a fellow colonist of Shep's on Mindoir, but while Shep was fascinated by the new species of the galaxy, most on the colony were still bigoted due to the aftermath of the First Contact War, including her nemesis Ethan. Mindoir gets attacked by slavers blah-de-blah (we all know that bit), so while Shep wants to help her fellow colonists by joining the Alliance, Ethan ends up with Cerberus (pre-Cerberus I suppose) which fuels his intolerance.

On Miranda:
Unfortunately, BW didn't really expand on Miranda's reasons for being with Cerberus. She never came across as the separatist type anyway, and once Oriana and the Collectors were sorted out, she jibbed Cerberus at the first opportunity (Collector Base confrontation with TIM). I could go with Jacob's reasonings, but Miri didn't really give any.

#8457
Rixatrix

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*sneaks in* Hope you all had nice holidays. :)

As for the question:

YurigirlzCrush wrote...
so now a question that's on topic! *grins* what are everyone's thoughts on sections from the perspectives of the bad guys?

I don't want to give away too much, and I'm not sure I could sell the bad guys as being both bad and realistic (since I'm not a mean person by nature and I don't know if I could really sell their villainy as both necessary and believable).

but I've been thinking some sections I have in my story for providing certain bits of info might be better if I rewrote them from the side of the bad guys instead. it would mix things up a bit and maybe I could sprinkle at least hints of the villains and their motives into the early parts of the story. so I wanted to find out other people's thoughts on sections from villain perspective and any particular traps to avoid in them.


"Both bad and realistic" is a tough sell for me. It is a rule of thumb for me that my villains need to be just as developed as my protagonists, if not more. And I like to think that 1. The villain is the hero of their own story, and 2. There is no are no "bad" or "evil" goals, only goals that conflict with the protagonist's. I think most storytelling has eschewed the mustache-twirling, steal-your-damsel "I am the bad guy because I am bad" villains.

Look at real-world conflicts: for example, a conflict between a stable country with nuclear capability surrounded by allies and an unstable country trying to develop nuclear capability surrounded by enemies, against a backdrop of world-wide nuclear proliferation deterrance. The "villain" is all a matter of perspective. Or think of two friends (let's say "Anna" and "Kate") who fall for the same person (let's say "Mason"). Anna confesses her crush on Mason to Kate. Mason falls for Kate, asks her out, and they begin a relationship. Anna is hurt by this and stops talking to Kate. Kate is hurt because her friendship with Anna has suffered. Anyone here can be characterized as the protagonist or the antagonist.

To make sure they are realistic, I like to do extensive character worksheets for my antagonists -- what are their goals? What are their skills/talents? What are their shortcomings/vices? What is important to them? Do their goals, personality, ethics logically flow from their biographical data? Are their reasons for doing what they do compelling? 

You shouldn't feel like you need to do villain's POV. If you have an always-present antagonist force, like say, Cerberus, you wouldn't need to do TIM's POV. I mean, if you have an encounter every chapter and some underling reiterates the antagonist's goal, there's no sense in doing an antagonist's perspective scene or chapter. However, if the antagonist is less obvious, perhaps unknown and pulling strings or the like, doing some scenes or chapters in the his/her POV is useful. You don't have to explain everything, but you can foreshadow. Give your readers something to guess at.

When this latter scenario is the case, I'm usually writing in 3rd person limited POV. I tend to write my protagonist(s) very closely in 3rd person limited, but I don't keep that same level of closeness for the villain. For example, my protag may be thinking long-term and making connections to plans, goals, etc. in her scenes after various minor plot points. In the antagonist's scenes, I like a little more distance, e.g., a scene involving a meeting with an underling where the antagonist makes mysterious gestures/expressions/mannerisms that reveal his/her personality and uses cryptic dialogue (since the antagonist knows what/who/where s/he is referring to), leaving the reader guessing. Critical to these scenes/chapters is that there is some necessary information I am trying to communicate that I can't get across in any other way in the protagonist's POV.

To your last point, I personally would shy away from writing scenes with your protagonists present from the antagonist's perspective for three reasons: 1) It can be jarring for the reader to be disconnected from the protagonist's viewpoint, 2) It can dull suspense (if your readers want the protagonist to succeed, then experiencing from the antagonist's POV will contradict that), and 3) Usually nothing is gained compared to a scene/chapter where the protagonist is off-screen (i.e., there is nothing to communicate to the reader here that must be accomplished via villain's POV). I wouldn't want to risk #1 and #2 when I can just write a scene from the antagonist's POV without the protagonists there -- a meeting, a planning session, etc. -- and try to reveal the information that way.

In sum, I would just make sure there is something worthwhile to show the reader in the antagonist's scenes/chapters. I feel like many I come across (even in books) are poorly done "Mwahaha, I am planning the bad things for the heroes!" scenes that make me just want to skip them. As a reader, when a villain is first introduced, I want to find out something surprising and critical, like who the antagonist actually is, what makes him/her tick, and so on.

Different strokes for different folks, but that's the way I try to go about it. 

#8458
YurigirlzCrush

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BlueMoonSeraphim wrote...

To your last point, I personally would shy away from writing scenes with your protagonists present from the antagonist's perspective for three reasons: 1) It can be jarring for the reader to be disconnected from the protagonist's viewpoint, 2) It can dull suspense (if your readers want the protagonist to succeed, then experiencing from the antagonist's POV will contradict that), and 3) Usually nothing is gained compared to a scene/chapter where the protagonist is off-screen (i.e., there is nothing to communicate to the reader here that must be accomplished via villain's POV). I wouldn't want to risk #1 and #2 when I can just write a scene from the antagonist's POV without the protagonists there -- a meeting, a planning session, etc. -- and try to reveal the information that way.

this wasn't what I was saying there. *ponders a clearer example*

okay. like in one of the current sections I have, I have Liara and Feron exchanging information that has just come to light about this Shadow Broker-related issue they've been investigating after an unknown hacker unintentionally reveals an enemy agent. and I was thinking of perhaps writing a different scene instead where the villain's subordinates report that one of their agents' cover has been compromised, etc. I wasn't suggesting that the protagonists would be present in a scene from the villain's perspective. I was suggesting that I might do an entirely different scene that presented the same information but from the perspective of the villains instead of the protagonists.

but again, not sure I want to get into highlighting the bad guys at all. especially since the villains are not the main point of my story. at all. the entire story is about the protagonists getting closer to each other while trying to uncover the source of the problems set into motion by an unknown enemy.

#8459
Rixatrix

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YurigirlzCrush wrote...
okay. like in one of the current sections I have, I have Liara and Feron exchanging information that has just come to light about this Shadow Broker-related issue they've been investigating after an unknown hacker unintentionally reveals an enemy agent. and I was thinking of perhaps writing a different scene instead where the villain's subordinates report that one of their agents' cover has been compromised, etc. I wasn't suggesting that the protagonists would be present in a scene from the villain's perspective. I was suggesting that I might do an entirely different scene that presented the same information but from the perspective of the villains instead of the protagonists.

but again, not sure I want to get into highlighting the bad guys at all. especially since the villains are not the main point of my story. at all. the entire story is about the protagonists getting closer to each other while trying to uncover the source of the problems set into motion by an unknown enemy.


Ah, ok. I got the wrong idea then, but I see what you mean now. My #3 point still stands, though -- if you can already reveal that information well via your protagonists' scenes, it doesn't really need the villains' POV. It sounds to me (correct me if I'm wrong) like your main plot is a drama with the "unknown enemy" problems being a subplot or vehicle to achieve the drama's goal. I'm with you on the fence about highlighting the villains in that case. The value of villains' POV wouldn't really outweigh the entertainment value of some well-placed revelations in your protagonists' scenes, while adding in villains' POV might take away from the main focus of the story. If your readers are there for the drama main plot or slice of life, it wouldn't be weird for them to ask "Why should I care?" when suddenly there's a subplot villain's POV chapter. Unless his/her story would weave into the main plot somehow (like a villain turned protagonist or becoming a love interest), it might feel disjointed.

#8460
sH0tgUn jUliA

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I misunderstood as well. I'm in the process of writing a FF with an OC villain at the moment, and the character is very well developed. I develop their faction as well. Yet my protagonist hasn't met him yet. Some of the characters in the story know about him. One has seen him at this point.

#8461
Seracen

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As for me, the main reason I resorted to villain POV is that I needed make sense of plot events, yet the heroes were not fully aware of the machinations at the time.

#8462
YurigirlzCrush

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was the name of Liara's sister ever mentioned in any of the comics or books or anything? I plan on writing a small part for her in my story and I don't want to contradict anything established. *frowns*

#8463
sH0tgUn jUliA

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I don't think so. I just did a google search and came up with nothing. I think you can make up a name.

And look at the bright side. If you do find out there is one, you can go back with a "Find and Replace" function. You've got the part written. It's a no lose situation.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 29 décembre 2013 - 09:10 .


#8464
MrStoob

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Posted Image

It's an oldie but a goldie. :)

Modifié par MrStoob, 29 décembre 2013 - 11:20 .


#8465
YurigirlzCrush

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*laughing* that's kinda funny. but I just don't picture a half-hanar asari using terms like "this one." I think I asked about hanar traits for an asari like a billion pages ago.

something else I found funny. I'm playing through ME3 again. I stole the husk head from the lab in the Leviathan DLC and have it in my cabin on the Normandy. and when I clicked on space hamster, he started to come out of the little box in his cage, and then the husk yelled at him and he ran right back in. it made me giggle. a lot. like way way too much. *sheepish*

#8466
Fatiguesdualism

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YurigirlzCrush wrote...

*snip* (since I'm not a mean person by nature and I don't know if I could really sell their villainy *snip*


YurigirlzCrush wrote...

something else I found funny. I'm playing through ME3 again. I stole the husk head from the lab in the Leviathan DLC and have it in my cabin on the Normandy. and when I clicked on space hamster, he started to come out of the little box in his cage, and then the husk yelled at him and he ran right back in. it made me giggle. a lot. like way way too much. *sheepish*

Me thinks you would do just fine on the evil front!  Posted Image
Also I'm annoyed I missed an interesting debate - oh well Posted Image

Modifié par Fatiguesdualism, 30 décembre 2013 - 10:34 .


#8467
enayasoul

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Finally finished up my latest chapter. Wow, that was a tough chapter to write. Not sure how well it will be received but it's finally done and over with!  It's kind of tough to know without a beta to read over it first but eh, it's up regardless. :huh:

Modifié par enayasoul, 31 décembre 2013 - 08:58 .


#8468
BronzTrooper

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Don't mind this post. Just bumping this thread up in 'my posts.'

#8469
YurigirlzCrush

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*sprints in, waves*

I am jumping the gun by several hours, but I wanted to be the very first to wish you all a Happy Happy New Year! *grins* well, that and because I'm leaving for my friend's New Year's party in a few minutes and I won't be around to say it later. so... Happy New Year to all of you! I hope everyone has an amazing night!

#8470
MrStoob

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*slouches in, grunts*

Bah humbug.

*buggers off again*

Hehe, hope everyone had a good seasonal thing, whatever it means to you, if anything. ^^

#8471
YurigirlzCrush

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*dances in, throws confetti all over the thread... and then an extra handful on Stoob for being mockingly scroogish!*

Happy New Year! I hope all of you are having a wonderful start to your new year! mine has been surprisingly productive so far. I actually did some writing today! and not just some, but... a decent amount! *grins*

of course, it helps that because I'm under 21, I did absolutely no drinking last night and certainly did not wake up horribly hung over this morning... because I'm a good, law-abiding girl and would never drink excessively in celebration or anything like that... *adjusts halo and grins*

#8472
BronzTrooper

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I could use some help with a DA fanfic I'm writing. I would have posted this in the DA forums if they weren't so much like a ghost town.

The fanfic I'm writing has one Warden for each origin (male Dalish elf, female elf mage, male city elf, male dwarf noble. female dwarf commoner, male human noble and female human mage) and I want Brosca and Aeducan to end up together, but the return to Orzammar will be a huge obstacle for them because Aeducan has obvious reasons to be against Bhelen and Brosca's sister, Rica, is married to him and had his son, so she would have to side with Bhelen for Rica's sake.

The problem I have is that I can't seem to think of a way to resolve Orzammar without one of them ending up dead... and I really DON'T want to do that. Can anyone help me out?

#8473
MrStoob

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Steve Moffat and Mark Gatiss. Proof that fan fiction can make money.

Dunno if our overseas friends receive the BBC's 'Sherlock', but I'm pretty sure most get 'Doctor Who', but they both just play like fan fiction. Knowing in-jokes, whole episodes purely there to provide backdrop to a single scene, plot/story sacrificed (or poorly realised) for the sake of such scenes, pulled out of the arse get out of jail free cards, etc, etc.

I don't personally like it. There was a moment in Sherlock in a scene with the Sherlock fans where one recounts how he could have survived the fall, and Sherlock and Moriarty nearly kiss; the last time I looked at Sherlock fanfic, it was almost exclusively Sherlock/Holmes, so at least Moffat had the decency to mock that aspect.

I'm tempted to facetiously twitter them both with a link AO3 or ff.net. hehe

Modifié par MrStoob, 02 janvier 2014 - 10:19 .


#8474
MrStoob

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Anyway, enough griping.

I was chatting with someone about ME plots/stories/fics and it has come to my attention that Detective Anaya (the asari cop during the Samara recruit) receives very little love. There are only 3 fics on AO3 with her name in the 'cast', hard to say with ff.net as you can't search quite the same. I thought she was a great character, and hoped she'd have a cameo in ME3. Are there any further small roles that you enjoy writing for but feel are under-loved?

(Oh, and on my previous post, I did twitter them lol)

#8475
Lilivati

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Gamer072196 wrote...

I could use some help with a DA fanfic I'm writing. I would have posted this in the DA forums if they weren't so much like a ghost town.

The fanfic I'm writing has one Warden for each origin (male Dalish elf, female elf mage, male city elf, male dwarf noble. female dwarf commoner, male human noble and female human mage) and I want Brosca and Aeducan to end up together, but the return to Orzammar will be a huge obstacle for them because Aeducan has obvious reasons to be against Bhelen and Brosca's sister, Rica, is married to him and had his son, so she would have to side with Bhelen for Rica's sake.

The problem I have is that I can't seem to think of a way to resolve Orzammar without one of them ending up dead... and I really DON'T want to do that. Can anyone help me out?

Are they both Wardens?  

I'm sorry if this sounds simplistic, but while it's obviously an emotionally complicated situation, I'm not sure it's all that politically complicated.  But it depends a bit on how you're writing each character.

Preseumably they both still value their identities as dwarves.  Aeducan's issues with Bhelen might not outweigh a) their desire for their relationship with Brosca to be legitimized, difficult given how the casteless are currently regarded; B) the mental health and happiness of Brosca.  What Bhelen did is perhaps unforgiveable, but it's not necessarily not understandable.  Aeducan was weaned on political intrigue and backstabbing.  Some Aeducans would've done the same thing in Bhelen's place.  It's possible for Aeducan to see it as being outmaneuvered politically first and foremost, and as a personal matter second.  

And now that Aeducan (and Brosca) are Wardens, there's no political stake left for either in Orzammar.  All they can do is negotiate the best possible position for fighting the Blight.  Bhelen won their little game by default when Aeducan was forced to abdicate any claims due to their Warden allegiance.  (Yes, I know the rules are bent for Alistair and could be bent for Aeducan, but if you're looking for a way out, it works.)  Also, Aeducan is probably not the same person who was run out of Orzammar.  They may have realized that there are things a hell of a lot more important than who rules this city, or that they're happier on the surface than they ever were down below.  I could even see an Aeducan eventually looking on Bhelen with pity- or even siding with him on the theory that they're giving him just enough rope to hang himself, and revenge is much sweeter when it's self-inflicted.

Brosca, however, unlike Aeducan probably puts family before everything else.  It's all they had.  I can't really see a way they side with Harrowmont unless you wrote in some provision for Rica's protection.  (Which Harrowmont may or may not honor- it would make an interesting story if Brosca gets talked into it on this basis, only to be stabbed in the back after it's too late to change their mind.)

Anyway, a bunch of rambling thoughts, but I hope it might help you out a bit.  :)

Modifié par Lilivati, 02 janvier 2014 - 03:07 .