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#9326
BronzTrooper

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We're generally a positive bunch here, but I had to share this list of 'most face-meltingly awful fan fiction'.  It's from a little while ago (2010 I think) but they really are... ugh...  Not for the faint hearted or easily offended/disgusted.  Indeed, it's mostly lemons, but someone took time to write these things!  And as the complier comments on the last one (a pokemon tale...), it's an 'self insert', a term which in this case is enough to make me shudder.  You have been warned lol.

http://www.toplessro...wful_fan_fi.php

 

I just thought that you meant horribly written fanfics!   :crying:

 

Why'd I click that link?!  Why why why why why why?!?!   :crying:  :crying:  :crying:



#9327
MrStoob

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I just thought that you meant horribly written fanfics!   :crying:

 

Why'd I click that link?!  Why why why why why why?!?!   :crying:  :crying:  :crying:

I thought I'd given enough warning... *shuffles away*  :ph34r:

 

Edit: I made the link less easy to idly click on... apologies for any offence.



#9328
Seracen

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Man...I've read my share of tripe.  Unfortunately, that sort of writing gives the rest of us a bad name.  They used to allow MST3K's of truly bad work...but too many people got upset when they felt unjustly parodied.  To be fair, a lot of folks were posting their MST's without getting permission as well.  Ah well...good times.

 

I'm not exactly a grammar Nazi, but alas, some folks'...er..."colloquialisms" were a bit hard to reconcile at times.  Then again, certain writing conventions I've read in a few of my favorite authors have informed me over the years (as in what to avoid).  The take away is that writers are writers, regardless of how they go about it.  Still, on the whole, the fandoms have been a boon to the community and a pleasure to participate in!



#9329
YurigirlzCrush

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*grins* all I had to see was "toplessrobot" in the link address and I knew I was better off not seeing it! *victory dance*



#9330
Obsidian Gryphon

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That's an evil link, Mr Stoob. :blink:  I can't believe what I read. Ugh. :wacko:



#9331
MrStoob

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To be fair, it takes a lot to make my stomach churn, being somewhat deviant myself. :devil:  :whistle:

 

I thought it interesting that the compilers of the list stated that the better the writer was, the higher up the 'bad fic' ranks they went, due to them evidently being able to write but 'wasting' their time on these horrific lemons.



#9332
Seracen

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To be fair, it takes a lot to make my stomach churn, being somewhat deviant myself. :devil:  :whistle:

 

I thought it interesting that the compilers of the list stated that the better the writer was, the higher up the 'bad fic' ranks they went, due to them evidently being able to write but 'wasting' their time on these horrific lemons.

 

FAUGH, are they saying I wasn't good enough to make the cut?!  :P   To be fair, I can't really call any of my sex scenes "lemons," even the one I was challenged to write for the express purpose of sex (I ended up creating a potential story arc and had 4 chapters of actual fighting and plot before even getting to the "lemon" part).

 

I think my favorite bad lemon was this apparent love triangle...wherein Dumbledore and Hagrid's relationship caused enough jealousy in Voldemort that he became evil (I think there was a Harry/Hermoine/Snape/Minerva thing in there too) ...I have yet to actually READ this travesty...but the look of sheer manic glee on my friend's face as she described the story to me was priceless.

 

My fave scene from a good "lemony" bit is this FF7 scene where Cloud gets married to Tifa and Aeris: the pastor, unsure what to say, says "I now pronounce you...uhm...married..."  What followed needs no explanation, but that gag alone, and the setup to it, was worth reading, haha!

 

Oddly enough, I haven't come across many lemons in my reading.  I was completely unaware on the few occasions that I DID read, realizing after the fact (of course).  I don't think I count large, sweeping stories with a few bits of cheesecake as "lemons," however, so my definition might be off.  Ah well...back to crafting my story, and hopefully creating believable romances that are decidedly NOT mere lemons...



#9333
MrStoob

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Indeed there is certainly a great difference between 'sex scene' and 'lemon', probably as much that the point of a lemon is just that, sex, whereas a 'sex scene' is part of a greater whole, usually including the romance that gets the lovers there and some built up character empathy.  It's more 'good for them' than 'Phwooaar', though I do wonder, even when included in a greater overall story, is it still just there to titillate?   :blink:



#9334
hot_heart

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though I do wonder, even when included in a greater overall story, is it still just there to titillate?   :blink:

 

Nooo... :whistle:



#9335
BronzTrooper

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It depends on the writer, I suppose.  I'm reading this one DA fanfic that heavily implies sex, but is vague enough that those scenes don't qualify as smut.  Sex scenes can supplement whatever romance is taking place, but they aren't exactly necessary for the reader to know that 2 characters are indeed in a romance.  I guess it's similar to how BW does romances in ME and DA, not showing anything explicit, but leaving enough there for the player to know what's going on.

 

Then again, I'm not exactly against reading a fanfic with smut in it.   :whistle:



#9336
Seracen

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I am so exasperated from years of watching anime, wherein the characters repress their emotions and never acknowledge the relationships!  Hell, they do it too often in many a great book series as well.  As such, I generally revel in scenes that assert character or consummate relationships.  Obviously, it has to be done well.

 

In Bioware's case...more like what you see between Shep and Jack/Tali.  Liara's romance was more straightforward, but serviceable.  I found the Virmire Survivor palatable PREDOMINANTLY in romanced setups.  Hell, even though the (Fem)Shep and Samara/Thane romances were understated or melodramatic (accordingly), they were still poignant...consummated or not!

 

You know...as opposed to the glorified porn plot that occurred between FemShep and Jacob...ah well, I suppose BW is allowed their own lemons from time to time... :D !  In the grand scheme of things, a relatively small price to pay really...doesn't mean that Jacob will ever see the light of day in my stories though (for very long anyways  :P) !



#9337
MrStoob

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...doesn't mean that Jacob will ever see the light of day in my stories though (for very long anyways  :P) !

lol  Yea, I intended to use Jacob more in my trilogy fic but I basically forgot about him lol.  He had a few brief appearances in the ME2 arc then *poof*, never seen or heard of again.  Though to be fair, he was mainly going to be the butt of Shep's jokes around his 'good stuff' comment and the like.



#9338
Fatiguesdualism

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Sorry to ask, following MrStoob's erm...'educational'  :whistle:... link, but I've a little bit of a quandary on my hands.

 

I've been referring to PDAs as PADDs in my fic' (I was coming off a Star Trek reading marathon at the time and it unconsciously carried over) and I'm wondering if, after all this time, I should switch to using the correct (term?) - or should I just stick with the established PADD?  I know this is a fairly banal question (especially considering the 'titillation' topic that's currently running) but I thought I'd ask.

 

 

...doesn't mean that Jacob will ever see the light of day in my stories though (for very long anyways  :P) !

 

 

lol  Yea, I intended to use Jacob more in my trilogy fic but I basically forgot about him lol.  He had a few brief appearances in the ME2 arc then *poof*, never seen or heard of again.  Though to be fair, he was mainly going to be the butt of Shep's jokes around his 'good stuff' comment and the like.

 

I've got Jacob showing up in my next chapter...and I'm struggling.  But if it makes anyone feel better he's probably either going to end up in jail or possibly die!   :P



#9339
Seracen

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Sorry to ask, following MrStoob's erm...'educational'  :whistle:... link, but I've a little bit of a quandary on my hands.

 

I've been referring to PDAs as PADDs in my fic' (I was coming off a Star Trek reading marathon at the time and it unconsciously carried over) and I'm wondering if, after all this time, I should switch to using the correct (term?) - or should I just stick with the established PADD?  I know this is a fairly banal question (especially considering the 'titillation' topic that's currently running) but I thought I'd ask.

 

I've got Jacob showing up in my next chapter...and I'm struggling.  But if it makes anyone feel better he's probably either going to end up in jail or possibly die!   :P

 

I'd say roll with your original term, but perhaps write an Author's Note delineating the distinction.

 

As for Jacob, I think he committed the one sin no character can ever get away with...being boring.  It's as if, in an effort to make him the perfect man, they sapped away any originality in the character.  He fairs even more poorly if someone (for reasons I cannot fathom) chooses to romance this banal milquetoast.  Seriously, who leaves (EDIT: CHEATS ON) Femshep, the savior of the freaking Galaxy, after a few mere months apart?!  I mean, sure, I only ever saw that mission (EDIT: that particular Femshep scenario) done via Youtube (I could barely be bothered to do his loyalty mission), but still...the behavior of a LOSER, just like his father!!!!

 

As little as I cared for Vega, he at least had character.  It's just that he fares poorly against a team we've known for years.  By that logic, Javik fared little better.  Also, if I am honest, Kasumi wasn't fleshed out nearly as well as she should have been.  Zaeed gets a little more, but these two characters are redeemed only through how amazing the writing team was within the few short tidbits we get with these characters.

 

All context I guess.  As a romance, Traynor was weak; as a plot contrivance, she sinfully pulls focus from other characters; as a CHARACTER IN HER OWN RIGHT, she is quite endearing and compelling.  Perhaps that is what was missing from Jacob, yet present in Kasumi and Zaeed.  It's funny, because half as much effort would have rendered Vega and Jacob much more sympathetic.  It's also strange, because the only character I dislike more than Jacob is Kai Leng...not so much for anything either character DID, but what they failed to portray...

 

It's interesting how some characters thrive or wilt, regardless of development time.  As the author, I can see how one might have a blindspot to such things.  This is why I find my betas to be so important.  As the characters and worlds live in my mind, I may neglect to address a key piece of information.  Such nuggets are what makes or breaks a character to the reader, after all.

 

A long ramble to essentially explain my dislike for a character...a dislike born, strangely, out of apathy.  Again, I imagine apathy is a more detestable trait than PROPER villainy...which at least can add character.



#9340
MrStoob

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Agree on Traynor, she was particularly good as a 'character' but how she was deployed was undermining of what had gone before (RE: Liara), and other than maybe some of the Citadel DLC, she missed some of her true potential as a cog in the machine that is the Normandy, ending up being half EDI, half Shadow Broker rather than 'Specialst Traynor, Comms'.  I just don't think BW really knew what to do with her but wanted to add her as a new likeable character.

 

"STEEEEEEEEEEVE!" (see Jacob)



#9341
Fatiguesdualism

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@Seracen:  Cheers!

 

As for Jacob - I often feel like I'm the only person that liked the guy! :crying:  (Which is weird considering I've possibly only once saved Not-Ash on Virmire :whistle: )  He's fairly laid back and 'squared away' - which probably makes him the most odd-ball character in ME2 - but that's fine by me.  Not everyone needs to wear their heart on their sleeve or have a catch-phrase or personality quirk.  As for the Fem-Shep romance angle...well... the guy did once date Miranda (before that relationship somehow ended) maybe she left him a little more 'damaged' than is ever explained.  Maybe he thought the relationship was going down the same route and got out before things blew up in his face?  :wacko: I'm grasping at straws here  :D

 

As for the characters introduced in 'that thing that happened after ME2' - yeah Sam's probably the best of the lot (which admittedly is not saying too much) but as MrStoob and Seracen say, she really needed a better role.  It's as if they were trying to replace Kelly, realised there wasn't a need for that character in the story they had 'planned' and instead made her this hodge-podge of EDI and Liara.

 

As for Vega, Kai Leng ( :sick: ) and Allers....why?



#9342
Seracen

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Fatiguesdualism, on 09 Sept 2014 - 7:05 PM, said:

 

[snip]

As for the characters introduced in 'that thing that happened after ME2' - yeah Sam's probably the best of the lot (which admittedly is not saying too much) but as MrStoob and Seracen say, she really needed a better role.  It's as if they were trying to replace Kelly, realised there wasn't a need for that character in the story they had 'planned' and instead made her this hodge-podge of EDI and Liara.

 

As for Vega, Kai Leng ( :sick: ) and Allers....why?

 

You know, I always go back to establishing characters as early as possible...allowing them time to grow and have actual arcs.  In the Virmire Survivor's case...the arc was too much change, abruptly, with little set-up.  Furthermore, putting them at odds with the main character rendered them unsympathetic.  In fact, I would have ENJOYED having them become the enemy...replacing Kai Leng.  It would suck from a romance POV, but would make for amazing story telling...for all that it would make no sense (unless they were...like...Indoctrinated or something).

 

Which brings me to Vega, KL, and Allers...I would have been fine with them...had they been established earlier.  In Allers' case...no reason it couldn't have been Emily Wong (sans the death-by-Twitter-feed).  I didn't HATE Allers, but her inclusion was a bit distracting, considering the basis for her character.  As for Vega, again, I had no problem per se...he was just weak.

 

How I would have set up the ME3 beginning, scene-by-scene, assuming no groundwork in ME2:

1) start with the house arrest of Shepard, include the separation of friends

2) introduce Vega as the lone friend

3) montage of a court case against Shepard, variations depending on choices made in previous games...

4) special scene for the romance (if specified), and the Virmire Survivor

5) go into the current beginning from ME3 (but more concise, as we've addressed the backstory well enough)

 

Or some approximation thereof.  Each sequence need only be a few minutes.  Furthermore, the scenes themselves can serve as the tutorial (introduce movement outside of combat, as well as the dialogue wheel).  A more gentle transition would allow for more poignancy.  As crafted, the overall sequence wouldn't be much longer than what we got (current game opening length = almost 10 min...my version might take about 15 min).

 

As for Kai Leng, I would set him up in ME2 as one of two possibilities:

 

1) a random yeoman (for the "OH CRAP" factor of..."I totally had an assassin aboard my ship last game")

2) the Cerberus commander responsible for the clean ups after each mission (a random voice over from time to time during the after-mission reports)...setting him up as 2nd in command to Shep within the Cerberus hierarchy (just like Miranda)

 

3) Or, failing that, adding him to the Illusive Man's scene when you meet "Dr Eva Core" for the first time (ie: EDI's body).  Again, this is a common thread in all writing, it isn't that we find the characters stupid...just that their introduction is abrupt...thus their inclusion is jarring.

 

I liken it to something that Bungie said about Halo.  They found that a lot of people didn't like the Brutes because they felt "they weren't worthy adversaries to Master Chief," whereas the Elites were an established and respected entity (NB: Brutes were largely absent from subsequent games).  But it doesn't take a lot of time to engender this sense of worth...if done properly.  Case in point, Saren was established as a proper foil almost immediately in ME1...never once did I view him as annoying or pathetic (though he was totally a bastard and even a bit of a tragic figure in some respects).

 

I suppose that's why fanfic is so easy to get into.  One is taking pre-established characters and worlds, so the most difficult part is already done.  Even in my potential Elder Scrolls fanfic, I am making the main characters reincarnations of past established characters throughout the entire series.  I have as much fun working on my original work as my fanfics...but I totally understand the appeal and ease of fanfic.

 

It is much easier for me to write an ME fic than my original stuff in some respects, and vice versa in other respects.  For me, character setups are easier when in pre-established works (ie fanfiction), but plotting stories are easier when creating original work (as you are defining the laws of the fictional reality).

 

I totally appreciate how difficult and labor intensive such crafting can be...so even when I criticize, I try to do so with humility.  When I chide or rant, it is from a place of love and respect.  And again, this is why it is so valuable to have proper criticism (editors or beta readers) all throughout the project.



#9343
MrStoob

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Well the whole Cerberus thing was a farce anyway, so no reason why Kai Leng shouldn't fall in line with that.  To my mind, a little bed-hopping with Cerberus would have worked better, establishing Kai Leng for the later 'reveal' and the discovery that TIM is still a deluded empire builder, at which point the game lets us choose our path: save Earth or save the Galaxy.  I still remember my dark pact with Udina on a Renegade play through, and the support of Terra Firma.  So much ME1 arc potential lost between ME2 and 3.



#9344
Seracen

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In regards to dropped arcs, that's what happens when you overhaul a writing team.  Not that it can't end just as well, but more care must be taken to preserve the flow.  Still, if you read some of the (discarded) treatments of the original script, apparently, KL was supposed to be the Virmire Survivor's best friend or partner or somesuch.  Actually, I am rather glad they took out a portion of that story...as the original denouement of that arc was saving the VS or saving Liara (ie another choice as to who dies), and in light of all the crap already happening...I'd have been pissed.

 

Which is why I am usually so hesitant to kill off characters in my stories, especially those established by the canon lore.  I always fear doing it for simple shock value.  TBH, occasionally I do it to establish danger...that the characters MIGHT die, but I always consider character death as if it were a tactical nuke, use sparingly if at all!  In my last story, I was comfortable in killing off a few OC's, but only buried ONE of the original crew (lo and behold, it was a choice between Jacob and Vega...two of my least liked squaddies).  Even so, I wanted to make sure they went out in a meaningful and heroic manner.  

 

One should never WISH ill upon the heroes/main character, after all.  Any time such a thing happens, there has been a failure of the story to connect with the audience.  Even in the case of an anti-hero story, such treatment must be done with care.  For example: I HATED Kratos in the God of War series, yet managed to find the monstrous protagonist in Grendel to be somewhat sympathetic.  Even though I felt that both characters needed to fail, one was a character, the other a caricature.

 

Anyhoo yeah, another thing I think makes fanfic so much easier.  It's deceptively simple to create tropes instead of OC's, whereas existing characters are easier to mold and grow into complex individuals (note the word "EASIER"), especially when folks, such as the master craftsman at BW, did an amazing job already with the groundwork and all (most of the time anyways :P)!



#9345
Drussius

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Yes, I'm still alive.... I've eluded their every attempt to take me out!  :ph34r:

 

Which is why I am usually so hesitant to kill off characters in my stories, especially those established by the canon lore.  I always fear doing it for simple shock value.  TBH, occasionally I do it to establish danger...that the characters MIGHT die, but I always consider character death as if it were a tactical nuke, use sparingly if at all!  In my last story, I was comfortable in killing off a few OC's, but only buried ONE of the original crew (lo and behold, it was a choice between Jacob and Vega...two of my least liked squaddies).  Even so, I wanted to make sure they went out in a meaningful and heroic manner.  

 

...

 

Anyhoo yeah, another thing I think makes fanfic so much easier.  It's deceptively simple to create tropes instead of OC's, whereas existing characters are easier to mold and grow into complex individuals (note the word "EASIER"), especially when folks, such as the master craftsman at BW, did an amazing job already with the groundwork and all (most of the time anyways :P)!

 

I agree that killing off characters established in canon lore is a tricky thing, but I feel that it's more because everyone has such a connection to the characters. But I have to disagree about character death being shock value or that it should always be done sparingly. Personally, I've read many stories where no one dies, and in some cases no one even gets seriously hurt, and it just siphons all the suspense out of a story. I do agree that a character's death should serve a purpose in the story, except possibly the occasional red-shirt, but a few deaths can do wonders for building drama and a sense of danger. If the reader doesn't feel that the characters may fail, where's the excitement? In my fic, I killed three main characters and dozens of minor ones, but I don't think any of them died with no purpose or for pure shock value. I felt it necessary to reinforce how desperate the situation is, as well as to "tough up" some of the other characters, remind them what they were fighting for, inspire them to live up to the memories of departed friends, etc...

 

I also have to disagree with the second part. Although it's just my personal experience, and other people might indeed find fanfiction much easier. Maybe it's because I wrote original stories for almost two decades before I even tried my hand at a fanfic, but I find it much easier to craft OCs than to write within the bounds of someone else's established characters. In my fanfic, writing any scene involving Zaeed was like pulling teeth. His full personality wasn't intimately established in my head, and I felt like I always had to scrutinize everything to be sure he was in character. Writing my OCs, on the other hand, I flew through a few thousand words in the blink of an eye. Original stuff just flows.

 

But again, that's just my personal experience. Bear in mind, I've had a lot of practice at creating and fleshing out original characters, between writing for my own amusement for so many years, building original worlds for multiple role-playing groups and running said groups for years, creating and fleshing out my own characters for other peoples' gaming groups, and so forth. So original character development is squarely in my wheelhouse, whereas I feel restricted when trying to portray someone else's work.

 

 

One last thing: I know some of you submitted stories to the fanfic list thread, and I promise, I'll get to them when I can. But internet access is still outside of my budget, and I can't monopolize my brother's computer this morning for too long. He has data limits and so forth.

 

But it's nice to see that this thread is still active :)



#9346
MrStoob

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Good to see you, Druss, hope life is treating you somewhat reasonably (net notwithstanding).  :)

 

I've not done a dramatic death yet.  I almost off'd Liara in quite a sad dramatic way, and to the reader completing my trilogy arc, it seemed that was the case, but it ended up being a ruse.  I could have left the end of my trilogy as it was with Liara dead but I wanted to play with the characters some more so worked out how to twist it that she did not die after all.  Sorta similar with Shepard.  She chooses 'refuse' but all was not as it appeared (the Reapers' complete lack of interest in the relays until late on and suchlike used as plot-fodder).  Miranda dies during the Earth assault, but it wasn't detailed in that arc, just mentioned later in the post-trilogy tale, and I have Miranda Mk II in my story so that sorta negates that.  I think I'd like new Miranda to spearhead getting recognition for her sister's part in the War, as the Alliance still harrumph a lot around her past.

 

It can very much be dependent on the character being killed off, and how they relate to the specific story you are telling.  I'm pretty sure that anyone reading my works would be pretty pissed off if I actually killed off Liara or Ashley, as they are part of the 'inner circle' (as t'were) of my character groups.  (Liara/Shep/Ash, BFFs  :D)

 

 

In regards to dropped arcs, that's what happens when you overhaul a writing team.  Not that it can't end just as well, but more care must be taken to preserve the flow.  Still, if you read some of the (discarded) treatments of the original script, apparently, KL was supposed to be the Virmire Survivor's best friend or partner or somesuch.  Actually, I am rather glad they took out a portion of that story...as the original denouement of that arc was saving the VS or saving Liara (ie another choice as to who dies), and in light of all the crap already happening...I'd have been pissed.

I can see why they dropped the Liara vs VS 'choice'.  By ME3, this would be pretty moot for most people.  Save my lover, or my friend?  Bye, Ash!   :D

 

Also, it was pretty clear from the forums which arcs meant something or seemed important to the fandom.  The 'replacement' writers should have done their homework IMHO.  Using the VS as a placeholder in ME2 was such a crap idea, particularly as it was so poorly resolved in ME3.



#9347
Seracen

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Hey Dru!  Nice to hear you are doing well, hope everything works out for you, and good luck!

 

As for character deaths and OC's, I wanted to again reiterate that it's my particular take on it.  I by no means think my approach is what everyone should adhere to.  Indeed, there are plenty of great authors who I simply don't care for in writing style, or authors whom I enjoy solely for their compelling writing styles (though their storytelling might be mundane).

 

But yeah, I have always had a chip on my shoulder about killing off characters and avoiding caricatures.  This is probably why I find characterization in fanfics easier.  As for the other thing...my first forays into fanfic involved quite a few stories that killed off main characters for shock value.  However, I completely agree that SOME deaths are required to tell a suspenseful story...

 

Take the film Serenity, for example.  One of the characters HAS to die in a particular scene, so as to set up the suspense present all throughout the climax.  The director even said, if he had done the story on TV, as opposed to film, that character likely would have lived (as the story telling needs were different).  Beyond that, having everyone come out clean is just too idealistic.  Though it was awesome that you could save EVERYONE in ME2, the only reason that even works is b/c so much is lost in other areas.  Comparatively, I would feel a loss of motivation if we didn't lose Ash/Kaiden in ME1, and I don't think anyone expected all the cast to survive ME3 (my experience wouldn't be the same without that finale on Tuchanka...sob).

 

On the other hand, I don't ever see myself doing what GRR Martin does with Game of Thrones.  That's almost too much the other way, although it is always suspenseful, as you feel that nobody is safe (even the characters you are 99% sure are safe...you aren't always completely sure they are safe).  I don't know that I necessarily enjoy that approach either, as too much death leads to unresolved arcs for certain characters.

 

This is a facet to a lot of anime which constantly serves to perturb me greatly...and part of the reason I retaliate against character death so much.  I can recall EXACTLY the moment that turned me off of cavalierly using character death.  There was an anime that I saw as a kid, and I quite enjoyed the film.  It was a great, sweeping story that traveled the world, setting up an almost Indiana Jones style adventure.  The main character had lost the previous love of his life due to inexperience, weakness, and mafia-style violence.

 

So, the hero helps this young woman find the key to stopping the baddie, swearing he is powerful enough to protect her, and obviously falls in love with her.  Of course, at the end she dies, and it is his rage at her death that allows him to finally beat the baddie...it should be beautiful...poignant...touching.  Instead, I spent the entire climax of the film cursing at the screen.  Somehow, her death turns the hero into "the Incredible Hulk," and he is magically able to kill something which, up until a moment before, was impossible for him to beat?  Moreover, half the reason she sacrifices herself is destroyed mere moments later (in some cheap effort to increase the meodrama).  It seemed disingenuous to me.  Furthermore, how is the hero supposed to live after this?  I'd be scarred for life, were I him (not so sure it didn't affect me in some way, looking back on it).

 

Come to think of it...I think that was one of my first forays into fanfic...writing an alternate ending (though I did similar exercises as school projects).  I eventually found someone else's work, who had the same idea but implemented it better...and I guess the rest is history.  Funny, I'd never considered that example as another building block for my burgeoning desire to write...but I can see how it changed how I view storytelling.

 

Ever since then, I've always been particular about character death.  Sure, use it, but use it well.  Far too often, this powerful writing tool is used cheaply, thus diminishing the value.  Case in point, I don't know that I even invest myself in any of the Game of Thrones characters anymore.  Oh I love the story, but I really can't bring myself to care deeply about the dreams and motivations of an individual who will likely be dead in a few chapter/episodes.

 

Bah...rambling yet again...I'll be here all day if I don't end it now...

 

CHEERS EVERYONE!



#9348
YurigirlzCrush

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*nodnod* yep. GoT is a good example of going too far one way. on one hand it totes has me on the edge of my seat waiting to see if my favs will survive each episode or not (never read the books, and only watched up to the end of season 3, so please no spoilers!) and thankfully almost all of my favs have survived so far! *happy dance* but I will also agree with Dru that if there's no apparent danger (when it comes to suspense/adventure stories) a lot of the drama is lost. but I have to ask, Seracen... what do you mean by a death for shock value, and what do you mean by characters who are caricatures? can you give me examples? I mean, I know what a caricature is, but I'm trying to think of where it would apply in a movie or story I know... *ponders*

 

I'm not really sure where I fall on the character death issue, since I mostly read romance type stories. *frowns* if someone dies in a romance story, there's almost always a purpose for it, and I'm not really sure shock value would apply. but I am writing a clue/cluedo fic where I plan to kill off a lot of people. like... a lot a lot. and I think I may write my walking dead story idea after all, now that I've played the games and concluded that their story and my idea are different enough. but both stories would contain deaths and I'd like to get an idea of where on the fence my plans fall between meaningful and shock value. sadly my big idea for the walking dead story might fall into the shock value category. when I came up with the idea I was thinking it would be heartbreaking and poignant and emotional and then later very very tragic, but... it may have a certain shock value element to it. *pout*



#9349
Seracen

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*nodnod* yep. GoT is a good example of going too far one way. on one hand it totes has me on the edge of my seat waiting to see if my favs will survive each episode or not (never read the books, and only watched up to the end of season 3, so please no spoilers!) and thankfully almost all of my favs have survived so far! *happy dance* but I will also agree with Dru that if there's no apparent danger (when it comes to suspense/adventure stories) a lot of the drama is lost. but I have to ask, Seracen... what do you mean by a death for shock value, and what do you mean by characters who are caricatures? can you give me examples? I mean, I know what a caricature is, but I'm trying to think of where it would apply in a movie or story I know... *ponders*

 

 

Glad you asked!  Bear in mind, this is totally subjective, also long-winded:

 

Death for shock value is essentially killing off a character for no other purpose than to shock the audience...it's almost like torture porn (eg the SAW movies).  The suffering probably doesn't have a purpose, other than to freak out the audience in that particular moment.  Now I enjoy a good jump scare as much as the next person, and I can appreciate a good death scene.  Hell, I can even understand the angle of "death is meaningless and makes no sense," like the final death in "All Quiet on the Western Front."  However, picture a movie where the main character inexplicably dies in the middle of the film, for no apparent reason, with no appreciable fallout...and suddenly we move on to another unrelated character...it becomes a pointless death ("Pulp Fiction" was very close to committing this sin...but Tarantino knew what the hell he was doing...and Bruce Willis was a sufficiently badass replacement for John Travolta).

 

Here are my degrees of death, in order of acceptability:

 

1a) Consider Romeo and Juliet: there is little impact if only one of them dies, the tragedy comes full circle when both of them die.  Granted, they die due to their own melodramatic stupidity, but it is a poignant moment.  Or Priority: Tuchanka (ME3)...it doesn't have the same meaning if Mordin lives...for all that I love that character [sniff].  It is a defining character moment for these individuals!

 

1b) As you are a fellow anime fan, consider the show "Blast of Tempest."  The show starts with the death of Fuwa Aika...and the entire story revolves around character reactions to that death.  People who never even met her are affected by her death.  Therefore, her death had meaning...indeed, it was profound, which is often difficult to pull off in a story.

 

2a) All deaths don't have to have such meaning. Consider Sean Bean's various deaths (Game of Thrones, Equilibrium, Lord of the Rings...every other movie he is ever in).  Some of those deaths spur action, some have emotional impact.  But never do we see a scene where we introduce him, he has NO impact on anything, then see him killed in a horrible manner.

 

2b) Some stories have death as a punchline and instigator of a story.  In the film "Clue", a character's death matters little, aside from that they died.  Conversely: consider the "red shirts" in Star Trek: pointless death of a meaningless character, simply to establish drama.  Here, we have a purpose, but the death is still "cheap."

 

3) It is okay to start a story with an action scene, as it gets the story off to a fast start (hence why some enjoy "in media res," though I personally do not).  Hell, often a side character (who we may or may not know) will sometimes die ("I was two days awake from retirement!").  Good and bad examples abound here.  This is very similar to point #1b (Fuwa Aika), except that the character doesn't matter, like point #2b (red shirt).

 

A GOOD example is Batman.  As much as I like the character, Bruce Wayne's parents matter little, aside from that they died.  The story is GOOD, however, b/c it turns Bruce into an interesting character, and we care about his pain.  A BAD example is Aidan Pierce's niece in the game "Watch_Dogs."  She only serves as fuel for a revenge story, and has no bearing beyond that...I can't even be bothered to remember her name...and Aiden Pierce is unmemorable, his "anger" almost callous, further cheapening the death.  

 

A lot of classic movies/books/games got away with this stuff all the time ("Commando" starts off with daughter kidnapping, "Double Dragon" starts off with murder of girlfriend), but those are SUPPOSED to be comically bad and mindless fun!  Or, in the case of "The Count of Monte Cristo" (less death and more betrayal), the fun is in the revenge itself, and how it affects the characters!

 

4a) Now move onto "shock value deaths," which I consider the lowest common denominator.  Say I was writing a sequel to Mass Effect...and in the first chapter I killed off Commander Shepard, simply to shock the audience awake, get them hooked into my story.  Now, in his/her place, I introduce my own personal character (often a Mary Sue).  They behave in exactly the same way as I would write Shepard.  In fact, all the other characters forget about Shepard, as if he/she had no further impact in their lives.  "Disregard Shepard," I say to the audience, "love my new character in his/her place, but only after you have cried and screamed over my (not) brilliant use of murder to create such a (fake) important scene!"

 

4b) But they don't have to be a main character...let's instead introduce a minor character the same chapter I intend to kill them off.  But instead of making the death important (eg: establishing how badass that baddies are, or setting up tragedy for a main character), I simply have the death in there because I felt the story was moving too slowly.  Spice things up with a quick death!  Does it matter why I did it?  Who cares!?  I was getting bored, lets have a quick action/death scene before getting back to the story (eg: GARBAGE DAY...though that was a frikkin hilarious scene)!

 

The further down this list you go...the less important the death becomes, and the more potentially annoying...for me anyway.  Obviously, the tone and impact changes if you move from drama to comedy, but unless I can hit a few of my middle ground bullet points, I am loathe to kill a character off.  That my Mass Effect story starts off with a death is very rare for me...and even then, I took a pre-established side character...and their death brought the main characters INTO the story...so in a way, it was important, even if the only people who know this fact are the audience.

 

I am getting long in the tooth on this post.  Several of my bullet points probably mixed into each other, and I apologize if I rambled, but it's a bit of a soap box for me.  I shall address "caricature" in the subsequent post...


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#9350
MrStoob

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I thoroughly endorse The Count of Monte Cristo if you haven't seen it.  Only the 1970s Richard Chamberlain version mind... *stares manically and shakes fist*

 

In other news, and on the subject of unfulfilled potential in story arcs, I do find that I sometimes forget about arcs I intended on using but never did, but the initial pieces are still there in the earlier parts of the story.  So I'm guilty of that too, by being a haphazard writer lol.