9959 replies to this topic

[MrStoob]

 Ah, I wasn't sure exactly what was meant by 'self insertion', but I just read your FF front page Iliya.  Yea, I think I'd avoid that like the plague too.  

But it still sounds rude...

Edited by MrStoob, 26 May 2012 - 11:23 PM.

[Spartanburger]

lillitheris wrote...

Quick jot…is there a line beyond which someone becomes an OC rather than just an incidental name? Is there a distinction or terminology between side-role/supporting OCs and creating an original main character? Does an established side-role character without much established background – I’ll use Hannah Shepard or Aethyta as an example – become an ‘OC’ when you start fleshing them out more?

The first chapter of “Unity” actually features someone you’ve never heard of as a POV, for example – I don’t consider them to be an OC as such, they’re just there for a different perspective on the situation. I in fact specifically mention that there will be this type of stuff occasionally, but that I’m not introducing any new real OCs playing major roles in the near future…but on the other hand, I’ve featured Hannah, Aethyta, Kal’Reegar and will probably keep bringing them back.

I’m not really looking to change how I write in general (I like fleshed-out costars and extras), so I guess what this jumble boils down to is how I can communicate this to the reader who may be taken aback by the style initially? Are there some magic words I can use?

(Please feel free to engage in a wider discussion about developing canon but very loosely established characters, too, it’s an interesting issue…)

Well, something defined as an OC is not necessarily a "main" character or a "side" character. They are, in my eyes, Independent variables (Dass Variablen!).

And how important a character is is a fluid scale, ranging from unnamed civilians seen wondering the Citadel to Shepard himself.

I'm not 100% sure whether OC means Original character or Other character. In my eyes, an Other character is someone who is not as important as the main, major characters. Most of the named characters on the Normandy are not "Other" characters, but that depends on how important you see some characters. I consider Adams and Gardner to be "Other" characters because they really don't matter all that much in the end. Shepard and his squadmates, along with Joker and EDI? Definitely not "Other" characters.
Something defined as an Original character on the other hand has nothing to do with importance in my eyes. That only means that it is a character that you created yourself.

If you had to classify characters on a scale, I'd put characters like Shepard, TIM, Hackett, and other characters that have a profound impact on the plot into the designation "major" character.
Squadmates, Joker, and other characters that you see a lot of I would classify as "main" characters.
Similar to main characters, "important" characters are those who have a profound effect on main or major characters.
"Other" characters are characters that aren't really all that important. Refund guy, Private window (I swear I saw him the other day during the intro to my latest playthrough. He was just moved elsewhere), and the other characters that you hear around that also have a story behind them, but simply aren't as important.

Where an "Original" character falls is all up to you, though the higher up on the scale you go, the harder it is to make seem realistic or good. It's not really going to be good if Generic McRandomDude pops in at the last moment and saves the day, but if a fully fleshed out and interesting character saves the day in a way that is realistic to the universe and obviously not filling a place better suited for a predefined character then it could get interesting.
But the opposite is true as well. Don't spend time fleshing out a character that only gets a few lines of screentime in your fic, especially if they don't really have much point to the story. Yes, make them seem like actual people with lives and such, but we don't need to know every interesting moment in his/her life.

[gearseffect]

Thank you Mr Stoob, as for my spelling yes that is something I get alot, and I often proof read my stuff 50 times before publishing it. However I am also dyslexic this is not an excuse trust me I hate being dyslexic. However I have asked some who have mentioned that I have spelling errors, If they'd please be so kind to send me a PM with the ones they noticed and I'd be able to fix them right away.

Sadly when I PM people saying that, hell I say it on the front of my page too, yet I don't get any insight into what spelling errors I got.

It bugs the hell out of me, because I've reread, everything about 20 times looking for the spelling errors and I've submitted at least 3 new versions of each my chapters, and yet l am still hampered by this plague due to being dyslexic with a bit of Adhd too. God dangit I'm a perfectionist and Now I'm gonna go attempt to search out this spelling errors and sh!t that continues to elude me.

[fainmaca]

Just a thought to clarify my last post on here: When I talk about SI fics, I'm always picturing 'I was playing Mass Effect and got struck by lightning and woke up on the Citadel', rather than a character based on you then expanded on. I'm more inclined to read the second kind, as that strikes me as a bit more effort going into the character. But that's my interpretation of it. I'm sure others might be inclined to put more under the SI term's umbrella.

I'm seeing a lot of comments on keeping chapters short and sweet to keep up a good update schedule. I agree that this can be good to rake in readers. However, I find myself unable to do this. In writing my fic, I'm going for the almost modular nature of ME2, with one chapter for a mission, then another chapter for the time on the Normandy between missions. This does mean that I have a chapter that is 75k words, but I feel that it keeps the mission stories self-contained. However, this is only my attempt to emulate the game's mechanics of mission time versus downtime.

Speaking of which, do any of you try to emulate the games in your writing? not the setting, but rather the general feel of how the story iis constructed. For example, when I write dialogue I always have in mind a renegade and paragon way of conducting the conversation, and make choices accordingly. I also choose where to put actions that are obviously interrupts etc.

[lillitheris]

jtav wrote...

Silly question, but how do you get people to read your stuff? My taste in fic runs to non-canon pairings. Liara/Mirand, that sort of thing. Advertising on the BSN hasn't been pleasant, shall we say?

Oops, crashed. To summarize, a LI/anyone but Shepard is probably the hardest sell (unless you’re just writing naughty stories ).

In your case the Miri and Liara fans would probably be the least-interested groups*, and everyone else needs a good hook to get into the story.

The fanfic list hopefully helps a bit, but there might also be a demand for an Unconventional Pairings thread on the C&R forums?


* I should probably make a permanent disclaimer that I’m usually just making (un)educated guesses.

[MrStoob]

fainmaca wrote...

Just a thought to clarify my last post on here: When I talk about SI fics, I'm always picturing 'I was playing Mass Effect and got struck by lightning and woke up on the Citadel'

Wow, that's another whole level of badness. 

...and also the plot for Tron. 

That said, each to their own to make themselves happy.

[lillitheris]

IliyaMoroumetz wrote...

So, Lili, question; if I were to wait until your story is done, what would you want? One big comprehensive review or a review per chapter?

Mayhaps per chapter – or a combo…short notes for each, every 5th longer (or whenever there’s a time jump/arc change)?

The story won’t be done for quite some time still, I suspect…

[flippedeclipse]

 Oh, look what I found, a great thread!

A lot of the posts and links here have been super helpful, especially as a (kind of) noob fanfic writer, so thanks muchly for that!

I did have a few questions to ask those who are more successful and well-versed in the fanfic world than me. Basically I tend to focus on Garrus/Shep fics (pretty nonoriginal I know =P) and though I've posted a few kinkmeme fills on FF.net, I'm kind of shifting gears into focusing on my Shepard in particular and doing a lot more character development.

One problem I'm having here is getting the character development across at all. I have the ideas in my head how I want the character to grow and change over the length of the story, but I'm finding that that doesn't translate well over into writing, because I have a tendency to make the reader guess what's happening. So how do you guys go about writing character development without making it too "in your face" but without making the reader feel like they have no idea what's going on?

Another problem is actually finishing a story lol. I'll outline it and everything, start drafting and then... just get tired of it. Any suggestions on how to keep the creativity flowing?

Edited by flippedeclipse, 27 May 2012 - 01:05 AM.

[o Ventus]

flippedeclipse wrote...

Another problem is actually finishing a story lol. I'll outline it and everything, start drafting and then... just get tired of it. Any suggestions on how to keep the creativity flowing?

Write EVERYTHING down. It helps me tremendously. 

I can't tell you how many times I've had an idea that seems genius in my head, only to forget it 10 minutes later.

[fainmaca]

o Ventus wrote...

flippedeclipse wrote...

Another problem is actually finishing a story lol. I'll outline it and everything, start drafting and then... just get tired of it. Any suggestions on how to keep the creativity flowing?

Write EVERYTHING down. It helps me tremendously. 

I can't tell you how many times I've had an idea that seems genius in my head, only to forget it 10 minutes later.

Quoting for absolute truth. the number of half-asleep ideas I get, thinking 'I'll write it down in the morning', only to wake up knowing there's a hole in my brain where something awesome once was! There's nothing more frustrating.

as for keeping a story going, keep doing things that inspire you. Listen to music, read a book, watch films. I go for walks by the sea. There's something about being close to the natural world in some form or another.

Incidentally, I've updated my fic, if anyone's interested. Link.

[fluffywalrus]

flippedeclipse wrote...


One problem I'm having here is getting the character development across at all. I have the ideas in my head how I want the character to grow and change over the length of the story, but I'm finding that that doesn't translate well over into writing, because I have a tendency to make the reader guess what's happening. So how do you guys go about writing character development without making it too "in your face" but without making the reader feel like they have no idea what's going on?

Often, characters are products of their environment(s), which help highlight and play down certain innate character traits the character has. Often, I try to reveal a character trait or show a fairly important moment for the main character in each chapter if I'm writing a character and building them up. If I'm merely progressing an established character, then I need to move from what we all know about them, to where I want them to be, mentally/emotionally/etc.
This requires some insight into their thoughts as paragraphs go by. It's important that the reader isn't left guessing in this part, but instead has the changes communicated to them. You don't need to be blatant, but you need to show them something. Oftentimes when people do non-canon pairings and such, if they're trying to do more than mindless smut, they often reveal one or both of the character's "barriers" of sorts breaking down as the two interact more often. I find, the longer this process, the better the results because the process can be more nuanced and can seem more natural.
How would an author make non-canon pairings sensible(e.g. Traynor/Miranda, Grunt/Samara, Aethyta/Garrus? Well, it would be best to target exactly why this pairing WOULDN'T work on a character by character basis, and plan out how each character will chip away at each other's reasons to stay away. Sometimes, the pairing is so absurd that it seemingly can't make any sense, but with a lot of the main characters, it can be done.

Another problem is actually finishing a story lol. I'll outline it and everything, start drafting and then... just get tired of it. Any suggestions on how to keep the creativity flowing?

If you make outlines and get bored of the story because you've mapped it out in your head and can't will yourself to "fill in the blanks"....well, that's how I used to be. I'd be content enough with knowing all the stuff in my head and I wouldn't feel the need to write it all down.

I more or less "wing it" while knowing what key parts need to happen. No formal outline, no "this is what happens this chapter", or "this happens in succession of this, and follows this up, etc.". That way, I push myself to think of new stuff, or elaborate on a lot of main details while I'm writing. Making complimentary characters part of the plot is also a good idea IMO because then you can't just work off a single timeline. It forces you to accomodate other characters, muddying up any formal outlines, making you implement new events and such.
Also, don't feel like you need to write in order of events. Just write, whenever you get the inspiration. Then, it becomes a creative process to bridge two events together.

I mean, you might try that way and burn out, but at least it's a different way, and you could succeed with it. Works for me, at least.

Edited by fluffywalrus, 27 May 2012 - 03:44 AM.

[Sigyn2011]

 Hello everyone,

It's nice to see that we've got a subject on the forum dedicated to this now.  I've been a bit busy writing my own stuff, so i haven't had the time to check BSN for a while.  (And I've been playing another game a bit, too).  

Everyone works differently to craft a story or novel; our brains all go to the beat of different drums.  However, as a fellow writer, I would recommend that everyone make notes as they brainstorm immediately.  Even if it's just an idea for a conversation, write it down right away; you can proofread it (or have someone else do it) and insert it into a story later.  Also, make a little outline of how you'd like each scene to go.  You can always flesh it out later.

Sometimes I add scenes to my notes as I go along writing the novel, too.  Having beta readers helps immensely, especially if you're new to the field or English as a second language.  But most importantly, when you make those outlines or notes, before you start to write the story, you MUST have some kind of ending already written down.  When you get to finally writing it, you can change it in a major or minor way, but at least you have a goal of where you want to go.  Anyhow, those are just some ideas.  Take them for what you will.

And now, shameless advertisement, I happen to have some work of my own on ffdotnet.  The majority of the stories revolve around Shepard and Miranda, but one does involve Kaidan as well as a character of my own creation.  The other involves Shepard and Anderson before they serve on the SSV Normandy.  

[IliyaMoroumetz]

MrStoob wrote...

fainmaca wrote...

Just a thought to clarify my last post on here: When I talk about SI fics, I'm always picturing 'I was playing Mass Effect and got struck by lightning and woke up on the Citadel'

Wow, that's another whole level of badness. 

...and also the plot for Tron. 

That said, each to their own to make themselves happy.

Hey now!  Tron actually did it right!  And it has Jeff Bridges and his deep, masculine voice!

MrStoob wrote...

 Ah, I wasn't sure exactly what was meant
by 'self insertion', but I just read your FF front page Iliya.  Yea, I
think I'd avoid that like the plague too.  [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie]

But it still sounds rude...[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/andy.png[/smilie]

Sadly, I can only wonder at the kind of lives of people who feel the need to write stories of themselves getting it on with game characters after transporting themselves into a universe they're aware of.  In a less blunt manner, I'd say, "What kind of bleak meaningless life do you live where you think it's acceptable to subject us to this rhetorical turd!"

o Ventus wrote...


Write EVERYTHING down. It helps me tremendously. 

I can't tell you how many times I've had an idea that seems genius in my head, only to forget it 10 minutes later.

Agreed so much.

I wrote down a basic outline for Ubi Venenum, Ibi Evaqua and I was able to fill in enough details to make it just right.  I plan to go back to it and improve on it, but yeah.  I heartily recommend writing things down as soon as they come to mind.

Edited by IliyaMoroumetz, 27 May 2012 - 05:16 AM.

[Sweawm]

Weighing in on the SI section, I believe they are a blight upon the forums. They put everything together in a ridiculous manner and I believe they are all SI Characters are doomed to become a Mary Sue

[setrus86]

My take on all three games for Michael Shepard, LI Tali (err...though not always a clear path, I'm a bit of a drama queen ), though the POV shifts between the chapters to whatever fits best.

http://www.fanfictio...hell_of_heroism

http://www.fanfictio...irit_of_heroism

http://www.fanfictio...eath_of_heroism

The last installment is still ongoing. :-)

Edited by setrus86, 27 May 2012 - 08:58 AM.

[fainmaca]

A question: How much is too much?

I'm talking mostly about action scenes. Is there some kind of horizon for action beyond which it just gets ridiculous? For example, I feel I courted that line quite closely with a recent scene in my fic where (SPOILERS) Jack jumps out of the Normandy's airlock to crash through the transparent ceiling of a hangar bay. But was this too far? (SPOILERS END)

Do you feel that any level of action is acceptable, or is there a kind of boundary beyond which you would say 'okay, dial it back now'?

[Sigyn2011]

Did she biotically jump and crash through a ceiling on a planet? Ha ha. Otherwise in space, hmm....that can't exactly happen. So that's where I'd limit it myself.

[MidnightRaith]

jtav wrote...

Silly question, but how do you get people to read your stuff? My taste in fic runs to non-canon pairings. Liara/Mirand, that sort of thing. Advertising on the BSN hasn't been pleasant, shall we say?

I'd say to make an effort into telling people what the fic actually is. Personally, I'm not afraid of non-canon pairings if they are done right. Fortunately, yours is on the path to do so. Keep the characters true to themselves, and you can have some interesting things. I don't particularly agree with some forumgoers here that say these kinds of things are silly, because it is an exercise in and of itself to be able to characterize well enough to make these pairings believable. Typically, the authors that can pull this off actually write very well. You're one of them.

When doing advertisments here, I'd advise telling people that you aren't significantly changing anything with either Liara or Miranda to suit your objective. They are largely the same. You are only truly changing the events that happen in universe. Sort of like an AU and the most interesting and unlikely things can happen in AUs.

Clarifying on the SI thing. There is a fine line between inserting traits of yourself in any character and making a character the end all dream representation of your perfection. After all, I connect to even established characters by seeing similarties between them and myself and that makes it easier for me to write them. It makes them relatable. What isn't relatable is if you make the character something that has all of your features, but none of your flaws.

I also don't keep outlines. They never work for me. Well, rather I keep extremely loose outlines. I have a very basic idea for a plot, set some markers that I must meet in the course of the story at some point, but otherwise keep things vague. It helps me flow things better and makes the work build on itself rather than force it to work towards something and sacrifice flow. I'm sure others can set structured plots and do what I'm doing by winging it, but I'm just saying that my way works for me, their's for them. Plot structure and organization is largely personal, I feel. I didn't get a feel for this until I had some practice in writing, so I could find out what works for me and what doesn't.

[fainmaca]

Sigyn2011 wrote...

Did she biotically jump and crash through a ceiling on a planet? Ha ha. Otherwise in space, hmm....that can't exactly happen. So that's where I'd limit it myself.

Oh? why couldn't it happen in space? I'm asking because that's where it did happen. Jack jumps out of the Normandy, then uses her biotics to accelerate to her target. She uses the following atmospheric evacuation to clear out most of the enemies within while generating a Barrier which she used to keep herself grounded inside.

[Spartanburger]

fainmaca wrote...

A question: How much is too much?

Well, in a way, there is simply no limit.

The problem is that, the more there is, the harder it is to write realistically and in a way that fits with the current setting. Some scenes of action may not fit for a calming 'in-between' chapter, whereas thy might fit perfectly in others.

[Applepie_Svk]

I have read lot of fanfics but I must say that I don´t like much digging into Sheppard´s story - it´s like a trying to force on original, I don´t say that all of them are bad or something like that, but there is much more characters in ME which have no real background - characters which could be shape by our ideas, some of them are realy great (good or evil ones it doesn´t matter it´s all about idea and your target).

[MidnightRaith]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

I have read lot of fanfics but I must say that I don´t like much digging into Sheppard´s story - it´s like a trying to force on original, I don´t say that all of them are bad or something like that, but there is much more characters in ME which have no real background - characters which could be shape by our ideas, some of them are realy great (good or evil ones it doesn´t matter it´s all about idea and your target).

You need to read A Thessia's Whisper if you want to be persuaded on your point. Excellent fic on Shep's story and it fit with what little snippets we get in game. It also goes into Liara's backstory, which answers your second point. 

But, that fic really put me in the mood to see more of Shepard's story. Besides, Shepard is the PC. He/she is supposed to be more of an original character from player to player. So long as the author isn't making their Shepard into something that doesn't make sense or doesn't fit into the universe, then I'm okay. Example would be having a Shepard with one background, yet they were somehow present at the events in two or more psychological profiles. I don't understand what the author wants to do with that. Why is is necessary for your Shepard to be the Hero of the the Blitz and the Butcher of Torfan. 

Edited by MidnightRaith, 27 May 2012 - 02:48 PM.

[RandomSyhn]

I'm quite exstatic to have found this thread, my fic has been suffering a bit. I could use all the help I can get.
My issue isn't writing or plot (at least I hope not, my reviews are encouraging) my problem is sitting down and writing the thing even when I reach a road block. I've had several hiatus' one lasting more than a year, but I really enjoy my story and really would like to keep writing it. (especially since my brain is conjuring the ME2 sequel) I've been reading many of the helpful posts but updating less than weekly is a massive challenge due to work and other life struggles. Any tips or tricks for just sitting down and writing would be appreciated.

I have to put my two cents worth in about the SI/OC discussion. I agree that self inserts can be tiresome and every one I see I avoid, though I'm not adverse to OC's in general. I've read some very engaging fics using only the ME universe and ignoring Shepard and their missionfor the most part. Some of my favourite fics bring in OC's that hep structure the world around Shepard and add to motivations and make the story so much more relatable. (see Ravenstudios Cause and Effect)

I have to admit I am a bit biased with this subject because my fic is based around an OC who's just another grunt on the Normandy. I admit the story has gone in a different direction than it had originally been intended to go, but I like to think I am staying away from Mary Sue territory (If you've read it and disagree let me know)

fainmaca wrote...
Speaking of which, do any of you try to emulate the games in your writing? not the setting, but rather the general feel of how the story iis constructed. For example, when I write dialogue I always have in mind a renegade and paragon way of conducting the conversation, and make choices accordingly. I also choose where to put actions that are obviously interrupts etc.

I definitly try to bring aspects of the game into my work, although I also try to make it seem less gamey (although the mako will alway handle horribly) I think this is awesome to have in a good fic but I also feel personally I'm limiting myself a bit. Mostly in the setting department. I know that there is more to most of the areas than the direct routes or looping corridors that we experienced in the game but when mentally mapping out what's going on in my writing I see everything exactly how it's laid out in the game, which may not be practical.

Guess this thread means I need to start reading more fanfics.

[lillitheris]

fainmaca wrote...

A question: How much is too much?

I'm talking mostly about action scenes. Is there some kind of horizon for action beyond which it just gets ridiculous? For example, I feel I courted that line quite closely with a recent scene in my fic where (SPOILERS) Jack jumps out of the Normandy's airlock to crash through the transparent ceiling of a hangar bay. But was this too far? (SPOILERS END)

Do you feel that any level of action is acceptable, or is there a kind of boundary beyond which you would say 'okay, dial it back now'?

It’s a fine line. Unless you use your biotic powers to bring down a moon on the line and obliterate it, that is.

In your particular situation I’m actually less bothered by the jump than a space-facing surface that can be breached so easily!

I definitely like the more realistic take – inasmuch as any of us know what the reality is – but I suppose I don’t mind a consistent cinematic approach either. The worst possible thing is keeping things realistic(ish) and then suddenly going all House of the Flying Daggers.

I actually addressed this quite blatantly in Unity, explicitly going for a “Huh.” rather than “OMGAMAZE!” – maybe even too blatantly

Regardless of which way you go, though, I think exceptionals remain the bigger problem. Exceptionally powerful characters, ultra-outliers, are probably the surest way to get into trouble.

Edit: er, actually finished the above paragraph.

Edited by lillitheris, 27 May 2012 - 05:52 PM.