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[dpMeggers]

A question

One of my OCs has apparently decided that she doesn't like the nickname I had planned for her, and has chosen a different name instead. Has this happened to anyone else? I mean, not specifically this situation, but a character has decided, in the middle of you writing, that what you're writing is wrong and they're going to do things their own way? Because it happens to me more often than I'd like...

Edit: Also would like to say that I'm working my way through all of the fics that I've seen posted here and I'm equal parts blow away by the quality of the writing and sorry that it takes so long to read everything.

Modifié par dpMeggers, 17 juin 2012 - 04:56 .

[lillitheris]

dpMeggers wrote...

One of my OCs has apparently decided that she doesn't like the nickname I had planned for her, and has chosen a different name instead. Has this happened to anyone else? I mean, not specifically this situation, but a character has decided, in the middle of you writing, that what you're writing is wrong and they're going to do things their own way?

Yes! And it’s good.

[Drussius]

Ursakar wrote...

Anyone remembers my post about the length of my chapters and how I said that I will need another 1k words to finish the next chapter? Well forget about that.

I just finished the chapter and it took me 3.7k words to do so.

Just... wtf?

I don't think you should worry too much about chapter length, unless it gets so long that you can't publish it due to character limits or some such. You just need to present the information in your chapter that needs to be there, so that you're not ending a chapter in the middle of something (unless it makes sense to do so for dramatic purposes). While it can be nice to keep chapters more or less equal in length, it's more important to keep the flow in a chapter intact.

My first chapter in the fanfic I am working on topped out at a staggering 14,700 words. Although I am trying to improve the pacing a bit, so I hope to shift some of it into the second chapter. But you need to write what you need to write, word count be damned.

[Drussius]

Now, an array of questions for my fellow writers:

The idea i've settled on for my first fanfic centers largely around original characters. I've decided that I'm more comfortable presenting my own material for a first attempt than trying to do justice to established characters. However, I've decided to add one of the former Normandy squadmates to the story near the end. I would keep the name out of my questions since it would qualify as a spoiler, but since some of the issues revolve around the inclusion of the character, I just need to say who it is... Zaeed.

I had originally been thinking that I'd have him show up at a point later in the story, but as I'm writing, I find myself wondering if I should include him earlier and work him into the story, even though he wouldn't meet the other protagonists of the story until much later. I could add material expanding on how he came to be where the others meet him, etc. But I am wondering if I would be doing credit to the story this way, or if it's more likely that having him appear at the most dramatic moment would be the best course...

Also, does anyone know if it was ever mentioned in ME3 WHY he was so hell-bent on getting back at Cerberus? Unfortunately I kept getting Zaeed killed in my various ME2 playthroughs, so he was only alive for one of my ME3 playthroughs. I believe he said something about "It all started when Cerberus tried to hire me for another job after the Collector base..." or something along those lines, but I don't think details were given. Can anyone confirm if something else was mentioned?

Thanks in advance for any thoughts/info on the matter.

[Ursakar]

Drussius wrote...

I don't think you should worry too much about chapter length, unless it gets so long that you can't publish it due to character limits or some such. You just need to present the information in your chapter that needs to be there, so that you're not ending a chapter in the middle of something (unless it makes sense to do so for dramatic purposes). While it can be nice to keep chapters more or less equal in length, it's more important to keep the flow in a chapter intact.

My first chapter in the fanfic I am working on topped out at a staggering 14,700 words. Although I am trying to improve the pacing a bit, so I hope to shift some of it into the second chapter. But you need to write what you need to write, word count be damned.

Yeah, but then you have to spell check and proofread these lengthy chapters and it's a pain in the ass.

14.7 is not staggering for me. My Horizon mission is 19k words long.

[dpMeggers]

Drussius wrote...

I had originally been thinking that I'd have him show up at a point later in the story, but as I'm writing, I find myself wondering if I should include him earlier and work him into the story, even though he wouldn't meet the other protagonists of the story until much later. I could add material expanding on how he came to be where the others meet him, etc. But I am wondering if I would be doing credit to the story this way, or if it's more likely that having him appear at the most dramatic moment would be the best course...

Does it seem jarring and out of place for him to be in the right place at the right time? If so you might want to expand on how he came to be there. If not, well, stranger things have happened in the ME universe and it's safe to leave him appearing dramatically. (See Conrad Verner everywhere, Gianna Parasini, Shiala and Rana Thanoptis just turning up.)

Drussius wrote... 
Also, does anyone know if it was ever mentioned in ME3 WHY he was so hell-bent on getting back at Cerberus? Unfortunately I kept getting Zaeed killed in my various ME2 playthroughs, so he was only alive for one of my ME3 playthroughs. I believe he said something about "It all started when Cerberus tried to hire me for another job after the Collector base..." or something along those lines, but I don't think details were given. Can anyone confirm if something else was mentioned?

Thanks in advance for any thoughts/info on the matter.

I believe the only info that we get is that Cerberus tried to hire him again and that it went badly. I don't think we get much more than that. 


Regarding chapter length: Holy hell you guys. The most I've ever managed in a chapter was something like 2.5k. My longest story is 12 chapters and it only has about 17k words. Where do all your words come from? Are you describing things? Are people giving speeches? (This is not me trying to up my wordcount - I'm perfectly satisfied with short chapters.)

[fluffywalrus]

dpMeggers wrote...

A question

One of my OCs has apparently decided that she doesn't like the nickname I had planned for her, and has chosen a different name instead. Has this happened to anyone else? I mean, not specifically this situation, but a character has decided, in the middle of you writing, that what you're writing is wrong and they're going to do things their own way? Because it happens to me more often than I'd like...

Edit: Also would like to say that I'm working my way through all of the fics that I've seen posted here and I'm equal parts blow away by the quality of the writing and sorry that it takes so long to read everything.

Hah, yeah, it's definitely been something that's happened before.
I say, write what you feel most comfortable with, and what seems best for your story in the long run. If both of those contradict each other, then ask yourself 'Why' and keep asking it until you find yourself taking one side over the other. Then go with that.

But yeah, it's tough sometimes.

And just gotta say thanks for having the gusto to read all our fics It's nice to have a bunch of people here willing to help each other out

dpMeggers wrote...

Regarding chapter length: Holy hell you
guys. The most I've ever managed in a chapter was something like 2.5k.
My longest story is 12 chapters and it only has about 17k words. Where
do all your words come from? Are you describing things? Are people
giving speeches? (This is not me trying to up my wordcount - I'm
perfectly satisfied with short chapters.)

Eh, some chapters just feel like they need to be long, sometimes I guess. Depends on the writing style of the author.
I initially aimed for 3500-4500 words on average, but I think I'm averaging around 5k or so. I just write until I find a decent cutoff point.  Sometimes I fill my chapters with dialogue (last two chapters), sometimes with a lot of descriptive stuff (first few chapters).

It also depends on what the goal is for the chapter. I normally handle 3 or four events, and sometimes I notice other authors would have made each event a single chapter. It's just a little bit different, is all.

Short shapters work better sometimes. Sometimes long ones fit better. Most often though, chapter length is just a reflection of the writing style of the author.

Modifié par fluffywalrus, 17 juin 2012 - 05:33 .

[Ursakar]

Yes, my characters give speeches. And I describe things... and thoughts... and other stuff.

This is a problem with the crossovers. If you want to attract more readers that are familiar with one universe but not with the other, you have to describe things for them.

Modifié par Ursakar, 17 juin 2012 - 05:32 .

[lillitheris]

dpMeggers wrote...

Drussius wrote...

I had originally been thinking that I'd have him show up at a point later in the story, but as I'm writing, I find myself wondering if I should include him earlier and work him into the story, even though he wouldn't meet the other protagonists of the story until much later. I could add material expanding on how he came to be where the others meet him, etc. But I am wondering if I would be doing credit to the story this way, or if it's more likely that having him appear at the most dramatic moment would be the best course...

Does it seem jarring and out of place for him to be in the right place at the right time? If so you might want to expand on how he came to be there. If not, well, stranger things have happened in the ME universe and it's safe to leave him appearing dramatically. (See Conrad Verner everywhere, Gianna Parasini, Shiala and Rana Thanoptis just turning up.)

I’d consider foreshadowing it at least. Personally I see nothing wrong to include small bits of what he’s doing before he actually steps on the stage. If you were adventurous, you could try to hide that it’s Zaeed, just have a mysterious dude do something. Or it could be others observing him do stuff. Or it could be Galactic News broadcasts that the others hear?

I can’t say which way you should go…only that I don’t think there’s any reason why you shouldn’t consider that.

Off-topic, I’m apparently a really small minority, but I couldn’t stand Zaeed. He’s irredeemable.

Regarding chapter length: Holy hell you guys. The most I've ever managed in a chapter was something like 2.5k. My longest story is 12 chapters and it only has about 17k words. Where do all your words come from? Are you describing things? Are people giving speeches? (This is not me trying to up my wordcount - I'm perfectly satisfied with short chapters.)

This is definition of a chapter, again. What you — and I — write are perhaps more properly ‘scenes’, whereas their chapters consist of multiples thereof. If I wanted to, I could have 3 chapters of ~20k words each

Like ‘pages’, ‘chapters’ is a fairly useless metric when there’s no standard.

…

Also, brownie time! :wizard::wizard: Good thing I went for a long bike ride today.

[Drussius]

As to word count, I think it just often takes me a while to get to the point of the chapter. I like dialogue, I like interaction, and I like filling in some descriptive elements that I feel sets the scene (though during editing I find myself removing a lot of superfluous details... does the reader really need to know that Guy the soldier kept itching his nose while waiting for the enemy to step into his field of fire? Probably not...) Plus, most of my writing to date has been original content, which requires a lot more descriptive elements since the reader (if I had any readers) would not be familiar with the setting.

I'm struggling not to include details in my fanfic of this nature... Every fan knows Quarians have a weak immune system. Yet I find myself reiterating the point as if the reader wouldn't know a thing about the ME universe. Old habits.

About the Zaeed situation: I haven't gotten to the part where I planned originally to include him yet, but I find myself thinking that him just showing up at a critical point might seem a little cheesy. And I find myself thinking that perhaps I could use my little story as an opportunity to explore a bit about how it is that he ended up interfering in Cerberus's business.

Like you, lillitheris, I had a hard time liking Zaeed because he seems like a villain cast in the role of a hero's sidekick. I don't think I could write a fanfic with him as the main focus. However, as a Mercenary, he's a convenient figure, because he could end up anywhere just because he is being paid for it. And despite his character flaws, I have little snippets of diologue stuck in my head between him and one of the main protagonists of my story that could be amusing.

[dpMeggers]

fluffywalrus wrote...

dpMeggers wrote...

A question

One of my OCs has apparently decided that she doesn't like the nickname I had planned for her, and has chosen a different name instead. Has this happened to anyone else? I mean, not specifically this situation, but a character has decided, in the middle of you writing, that what you're writing is wrong and they're going to do things their own way? Because it happens to me more often than I'd like...

Edit: Also would like to say that I'm working my way through all of the fics that I've seen posted here and I'm equal parts blow away by the quality of the writing and sorry that it takes so long to read everything.

Hah, yeah, it's definitely been something that's happened before.
I say, write what you feel most comfortable with, and what seems best for your story in the long run. If both of those contradict each other, then ask yourself 'Why' and keep asking it until you find yourself taking one side over the other. Then go with that.

But yeah, it's tough sometimes.

And just gotta say thanks for having the gusto to read all our fics It's nice to have a bunch of people here willing to help each other out  

I mostly go with what my characters decide. It's their story, I'm just the one who gets to tell it to other people. It's just an odd sensation having someone who exists primarily in your head direct the way your writing goes.

In this case, she'll get the second nickname that came up instead of the one I originally thought of. I don't want to give away what yet.

Edit: Regarding Zaeed - I was mostly abivalent towards him, but I took him along for Jack's loyalty mission in ME2 (My third squadmate was always someone that the loyalty-squadmate might like/respect/trust) where he gets the only dialogue which makes me seem even remotely redeemable. While you're walking through the Teltin facility he actually gets disgusted by the way the kids were treated. That's right, Mr. "Let those people burn I want my damn revenge" has found a line he won't cross. 

Modifié par dpMeggers, 17 juin 2012 - 06:11 .

[fluffywalrus]

lillitheris wrote...

Off-topic, I’m apparently a really small minority, but I couldn’t stand Zaeed. He’s irredeemable.

Also, brownie time! :wizard::wizard: Good thing I went for a long bike ride today.

  BROWNIES

Also, Zaeed is a bad character and he should feel bad. I've never liked him and in most of my games, I won't even pick him up and bring him onto the normandy. Don't like the guy. Especially after his loyalty mission.

[Drussius]

fluffywalrus wrote...

Also, Zaeed is a bad character and he should feel bad. I've never liked him and in most of my games, I won't even pick him up and bring him onto the normandy. Don't like the guy. Especially after his loyalty mission.

I'm starting to think including him would drive away more readers than it would attract...

[lillitheris]

Drussius wrote...

fluffywalrus wrote...

Also, Zaeed is a bad character and he should feel bad. I've never liked him and in most of my games, I won't even pick him up and bring him onto the normandy. Don't like the guy. Especially after his loyalty mission.

I'm starting to think including him would drive away more readers than it would attract...

I’m not sure about that…it’s not that he’s a bad character. He’s just a bad person It’s an important difference! And plenty of people like him, anyway.

…However, if you do change, maybe you could use a certain other very burly and somewhat unattractive merc instead?

*nod* Drussius.

[dpMeggers]

Ok having just realized that we know of exactly one thing which sickens Zaeed (torturing children) and the fact that this thing also happened to involve Cerberus, and the fact that we know Cerberus is still messing around with biotic kids (piggybacking on the Ascension project, Grayson from the novels, the attack in ME3) - it wouldn't be that much of a stretch to think that Cerberus tried to hire him for something involving kids and that not only was he not interested, he was downright pissed.

[Drussius]

lillitheris wrote...

I’m not sure about that…it’s not that he’s a bad character. He’s just a bad person It’s an important difference! And plenty of people like him, anyway.

…However, if you do change, maybe you could use a certain other very burly and somewhat unattractive merc instead?

*nod* Drussius.

Much as I'd love to, since I'm setting my story parallel to the events of ME3, my Brogan would be occupied with other things.

[Drussius]

dpMeggers wrote...

Ok having just realized that we know of exactly one thing which sickens Zaeed (torturing children) and the fact that this thing also happened to involve Cerberus, and the fact that we know Cerberus is still messing around with biotic kids (piggybacking on the Ascension project, Grayson from the novels, the attack in ME3) - it wouldn't be that much of a stretch to think that Cerberus tried to hire him for something involving kids and that not only was he not interested, he was downright pissed.

Good thought. I was thinking that perhaps they DID hire him for something, and tried to get rid of him afterward. Or they tried to hire him for something like you mentioned, and when he turned them down the Illusive Man wanted him dealt with. They do mention that the Illusive Man doesn't take rejection well.

[Ursakar]

Drussius wrote...

fluffywalrus wrote...

Also, Zaeed is a bad character and he should feel bad. I've never liked him and in most of my games, I won't even pick him up and bring him onto the normandy. Don't like the guy. Especially after his loyalty mission.

I'm starting to think including him would drive away more readers than it would attract...

A lot of people like him, actually. I don't think you should worry that his presence would drive away the readers that don't like him. (Unless he is the central character of your fic).

[hot_heart]

If you take the Cerberus scientists who fled to Gellix as an example, you could perhaps interpret it that Cerberus is 'tying up loose ends' when it comes to people who were involved with the Collector Base.

You could work it either way.

Modifié par hot_heart, 17 juin 2012 - 06:34 .

[Drussius]

Ursakar wrote...

A lot of people like him, actually. I don't think you should worry that his presence would drive away the readers that don't like him. (Unless he is the central character of your fic).

My fic centers mostly around OC. He's really the only established character I'd be using at great length.

But based on a lot of the discussion around the issue and the suggestions and feedback (thank you all for that) I think I'm going to work him into the story more thoroughly than my original "surprise! It's Zaeed" intentions. I think it will mesh better with some exposition as to how he arrives at place X at time Y to assist with plot point Z.

[Icyflare]

Drussius wrote...

fluffywalrus wrote...

Also, Zaeed is a bad character and he should feel bad. I've never liked him and in most of my games, I won't even pick him up and bring him onto the normandy. Don't like the guy. Especially after his loyalty mission.

I'm starting to think including him would drive away more readers than it would attract...

Depending on how you include him in, it could work to your advantage. Readers are automatically attracted to conlfict and possible drama. I don't mean drama like, "Oh, my god. You can't go out with her! She's your ex-girlfriend's cousin's brother's acquaintance's best friend who only has three days to live!"--kind of thing. (As a side note, Korean dramas are very guilty of this sort of stuff and yet,  a ton of people are instantly drawn to it) I mean conflict as maybe providing an potential obstacle to your character's goals.

If Zaeed is part of a larger plot/conspiracy that's briefly mentioned, maybe it'll work out because readers know him. If he's part of a mercenary group that's blocking your protagonist and people hate Zaeed, that may work to your advantage, depending on how you want to write it. If you want people to despise him, depict him nonchalantly shooting your protagonist while highlighting his more immoral side.

People don't always read stories to hear about good people. They're often just as attracted to stories where bad ones get their karmic retribution (remember how great it felt when you stabbed Kai Leng) or the ones where people like these make scenes and the protagonist has to weather through the consequences. If you read any of Dostoevsky's works, many of his characters are soap opera actors; they're rude, inarticulate, often violent, passionate with a logic that only makes sense to themselves, but they're fascinating to read about because they reflect a side of humanity that's real and desperate but rarely portrayed with the intensity that Dostoevsky depicts them with.

In short, it's not always detrimental to include "bad people" in your work. It really just depends on how you use them. As long as readers can see a justified reason for including Zaeed in like that, it will work.

Edit: For some reason, I was being dense and missed the post above mine. I'm glad you resolved the issue, although I still think it's still fine to include heavily flawed characters into your work. And yeah, just showing him arriving at the crucial moment with no foreshadowing feels like a deus ex machina moment.

Modifié par Icyflare, 17 juin 2012 - 07:55 .

[Drussius]

Icyflare wrote...

(remember how great it felt when you stabbed Kai Leng)

You can stab Kai Leng???

...

That was a joke.


Seriously though, I do appreciate the insight. As it stands for my particular story, Zaeed would be on the "good guy" side of the fence through the simple fact that while motivations may be different, the goal at the time would be the same. I'm still puzzling over exactly how to insert him into the story (I know the overall role he will play in the plot, just not sure how to introduce him in the most seamless possible way), but I'm most concerned with being able to write him well, which will be the main focus in any scene where I use him. This is my biggest fear in writing fanfiction is that I need to do justice to characters that are already firmly established in the minds of most fans.

If I can capture the tone and feel with which he was used in the game, then I'll count it as a victory regardless of his relationship to the protagonist/antagonists. Having him in the plot is easy. Doing it while keeping him in the proper character will be the most important part.

[hot_heart]

Stories need conflict (well, story is conflict). If you could flesh out the Zaeed character it could give people a window in to that.

I don't know if anyone here has seen The Wire (you must!) but that does a great job at portraying people on both sides of the law, showcasing their flaws, their motives; keeping them all very human and not a 'good vs. bad' story.

(Small aside: I found the ME3 squad a bit dull because, with the exception of Javik and the VS, they're all automatically friendly people)

And, yeah, it's better that people care about the character. They don't have to like them, but they need to care about what they're doing.

Plus, don't preclude something because some people might dislike it. Figure out a way that they may still recognise their purpose in the story.

Modifié par hot_heart, 17 juin 2012 - 08:02 .

[Icyflare]

Drussius wrote...

Seriously though, I do appreciate the insight. As it stands for my particular story, Zaeed would be on the "good guy" side of the fence through the simple fact that while motivations may be different, the goal at the time would be the same. I'm still puzzling over exactly how to insert him into the story (I know the overall role he will play in the plot, just not sure how to introduce him in the most seamless possible way), but I'm most concerned with being able to write him well, which will be the main focus in any scene where I use him. This is my biggest fear in writing fanfiction is that I need to do justice to characters that are already firmly established in the minds of most fans.

If I can capture the tone and feel with which he was used in the game, then I'll count it as a victory regardless of his relationship to the protagonist/antagonists. Having him in the plot is easy. Doing it while keeping him in the proper character will be the most important part.

You could always drop hints gradually. Have people whisper about some, "ugly, scarred bastard who used to work for the blue suns" and other phrases that pertain to him. I would think at this point, probably hearing about Zaeed through gossip and rumours might be the best, because if he's a good mercenary, he won't be stupid enough to get caught on video/camera carelessly and if you hint well enough, readers will guess it's Zaeed anyways. How much you want to foreshadow is dependent how crucial his role is. Is he very important to that one scene's plot? Weave in a lot of hints. Is he just dropping by to say hi? Maybe just one or two. This is just one method of integrating him in. There may be better ways.

Anyways, don't worry so much about doing justice to the characters. Fanfiction is based on people's interpretation of a character/story/scene. As long as it doesn't conflict with any of the centrally established cannon and his actions/dialogue don't feel jarringly out of character, then I'd say you succeeded in portraying him.

[MrStoob]

fluffywalrus wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

Off-topic, I’m apparently a really small minority, but I couldn’t stand Zaeed. He’s irredeemable.

Also, brownie time! :wizard::wizard: Good thing I went for a long bike ride today.

  BROWNIES

Also, Zaeed is a bad character and he should feel bad. I've never liked him and in most of my games, I won't even pick him up and bring him onto the normandy. Don't like the guy. Especially after his loyalty mission.

But is it not our job also try to bring enlightenment to dark souls?  That's how my Verity sees it anyway.   :innocent:

Modifié par MrStoob, 17 juin 2012 - 08:13 .