226 réponses à ce sujet

[Oh Hai Gabby]

I used to subscribe to this game, but I found it atrociously boring and incrediblely uninspired.

[Elhanan]

termokanden wrote...

But that's just it though, MMOs always change over time so you don't know what will happen. That's why it's important that balancing is done carefully and not as a kneejerk reaction with complete disregard for possible sideeffects.

It isn't even just about that one class. It's about their balancing style. If I'm going to invest a lot of game time, I want to know that they're not just going to suddenly butcher my class in the future. I am not the type to roll a new character for each patch. Don't have the time or the patience. So the balancing had better be done right.

Again, I appreciate that we don't play the game in the same way. I like group PvE and I put a lot of effort into doing well in it. I don't want to be held back by my class because the devs don't care about PvE balancing.

To some extant, I agree. When my PvE characters became squishier after 1.2, I made my suggestions to avoid nerfing, too. But I remained with the same classes and builds, and now will see the pendulum swing back the other way. It certainly was not worth quitting the game.

And now I will see the finale to two more tales, and watch the origin over a couple others. One PC is getting married; a better romance seen here than many other games. And the others will pursue other Companion stories, as well as looking at the new HK-51 model coming soon.

[Chromie]

Elhanan wrote...
 One PC is getting married; a better romance seen here than many other games.

Oh come on there is no depth to the romance.

[wsandista]

Elhanan wrote...

termokanden wrote...

But that's just it though, MMOs always change over time so you don't know what will happen. That's why it's important that balancing is done carefully and not as a kneejerk reaction with complete disregard for possible sideeffects.

It isn't even just about that one class. It's about their balancing style. If I'm going to invest a lot of game time, I want to know that they're not just going to suddenly butcher my class in the future. I am not the type to roll a new character for each patch. Don't have the time or the patience. So the balancing had better be done right.

Again, I appreciate that we don't play the game in the same way. I like group PvE and I put a lot of effort into doing well in it. I don't want to be held back by my class because the devs don't care about PvE balancing.

To some extant, I agree. When my PvE characters became squishier after 1.2, I made my suggestions to avoid nerfing, too. But I remained with the same classes and builds, and now will see the pendulum swing back the other way. It certainly was not worth quitting the game.

And now I will see the finale to two more tales, and watch the origin over a couple others. One PC is getting married; a better romance seen here than many other games. And the others will pursue other Companion stories, as well as looking at the new HK-51 model coming soon.

Someone's brownnosing..........

[CroGamer002]

KDD-0063 wrote...

Skelter192 wrote...

Come on man as much as I would have preferred a Kotor 3 I would prefer Obsidian developing it since Kotor 2 > 1 but regardless Lucas Arts gets to call the shots on anything Star Wars.

Sadly, good relations with LucasArts, they don't have.

And LucarArts has ridicilous tactics which makes me wonder why are they still around.

[termokanden]

Elhanan: Just for the record, I didn't leave just because of this. There were many reasons and this is just one of them.

[Elhanan]

Skelter192 wrote...

Oh come on there is no depth to the romance.

While I have enjoyed better romantic stories in KOTOR and the DA series, I liked the Being Friends First nature of Mako for the BH Mandalorian. And for me, the pacing was terrific as I did not propose until I was on Voss and hitting 50th lvl. Others may have rushed it, but this was a winner for me.

And while I chose not to fraternize with those under my command, there are a couple of romantic options for the Trooper that were intriguing.

And these are clearly better than anything seen in Skyrim and other titles; even liked it more than the lust filled scenes of the ME series.

Modifié par Elhanan, 17 juin 2012 - 12:25 .

[Elhanan]

termokanden wrote...

Elhanan: Just for the record, I didn't leave just because of this. There were many reasons and this is just one of them.

I was not using the Quitting line directly to you, but to all those wearing the shoes it fits. Leaving or playing is a choice; I prefer the latter as I still am enjoying it.

Yes; there are some frustrations when hitting Heroic 4+ that need bypassed, or encountering a world boss solo (eg; Forbidden Knowlege artifact on Voss is better left untouched). But overall, I am able to explore, interact with Companions, discover new stories and rediscover known ones (eg; Revanites), fly successful Ship Combat Missions, gain new materials, and get prompt Tech help; still having a grand time.

[KDD-0063]

Elhanan wrote...

termokanden wrote...

I know you prefer to play it as a singleplayer game, but that doesn't excuse poor balancing in an MMO. Sorry, but I don't see your point at all here.

Again, it makes no difference if Wizards, Sorcerers, or other classes are more powerful than the one chosen, at least if that was an informed choice. Playing a MMO Healer seems rather lame to me, but there appear to be quite lot of them based on the Forums. And Bioware seems to have made taking hits as a so-called Tank a viable option, too. Options and choices. Etc.

As long as it is fun; if not, switch to something else.

The reason people brought this up is because at least the PvP players pretty much universally agree that 1.1.5 is very good on the balance side.

Then what happened in 1.2? Some classes are buffed too much, and others are nerfed too much. The magnitude is just too much.
At least in recent years, glaring class balance problem is one of the most important reasons for people to leave an MMO, as evidented by Warhammer online.

[Elhanan]

KDD-0063 wrote...

The reason people brought this up is because at least the PvP players pretty much universally agree that 1.1.5 is very good on the balance side.

Then what happened in 1.2? Some classes are buffed too much, and others are nerfed too much. The magnitude is just too much.
At least in recent years, glaring class balance problem is one of the most important reasons for people to leave an MMO, as evidented by Warhammer online.

Apparently, there was not universal agreement, or changes would not have been made in either direction.

I do not have any direct knowledge of other MMO's, and do not care for PvP much at all. So comparisons to other like games really have little influence for me.

When my Sorcerer became nerfed, I was annoyed and offered suggestions. It has always been my understanding that one should buff lesser roles, but do not downgrade unless it is absolutly essential because few like penalties.

That said, I look forward to seeing the new Trooper and Merc boosts, as well as seeing what Jedi Knight and Imperial Agents have to offer (besides more frequent Med Center visits).  Bioware has the numbers, and they have a much better view than I do as far as overall balance. If the IA and Smuggler need help, I am certain it will get proper attention.

[termokanden]

There's never really agreement on those things. But I think it's crucial to make small adjustments rather than overnerfing or overbuffing like they tend to do in MMOs. So there's an eternal circle of nerfing/buffing. Sometimes your class has to be unreasonably weak, other times it gets to be very strong. Instead of heading towards some sort of balance, the balance of power just shifts back and forth between the classes.

The conspiracy theorist in me thinks this is deliberate, perhaps to shake things up a bit and encourage people to try other classes (which really could be done in a much friendlier way!).

Modifié par termokanden, 18 juin 2012 - 04:29 .

[Elhanan]

termokanden wrote...

There's never really agreement on those things. But I think it's crucial to make small adjustments rather than overnerfing or overbuffing like they tend to do in MMOs. So there's an eternal circle of nerfing/buffing. Sometimes your class has to be unreasonably weak, other times it gets to be very strong. Instead of heading towards some sort of balance, the balance of power just shifts back and forth between the classes.

The conspiracy theorist in me thinks this is deliberate, perhaps to shake things up a bit and encourage people to try other classes (which really could be done in a much friendlier way!).

Q: What class was ever overbuffed?

IMO, nerfing should not occur, except in the extreme situation to correct glitches, exploit, etc. But I cannot recall seeing someone post that their toon was too powerful; too good for the game.

AFAIK, Bioware is using mectrics to try and achieve a medium range. Like you, I wish they would seperate PvP and PvE when researching and making adjustments. But my Sorcerer, Trooper, and Merc all managed to make it to 50th, and in the hands of a Twitchless player no less. And from what I read, with Summer and upcoming materials planned, subs may be going back up in numbers.

SWTOR appears to be moving along fine.

[Veex]

termokanden wrote...

But that's just it though, MMOs always change over time so you don't know what will happen. That's why it's important that balancing is done carefully and not as a kneejerk reaction with complete disregard for possible sideeffects.

It isn't even just about that one class. It's about their balancing style. If I'm going to invest a lot of game time, I want to know that they're not just going to suddenly butcher my class in the future. I am not the type to roll a new character for each patch. Don't have the time or the patience. So the balancing had better be done right.

Again, I appreciate that we don't play the game in the same way. I like group PvE and I put a lot of effort into doing well in it. I don't want to be held back by my class because the devs don't care about PvE balancing.

My first response would be that, MMOs are never balanced. In the eyes of the playerbase their class will always be underpowered in relation to something else, and something will always need nerfing. With varying levels of player skill involved the results aren't going to be the same for everyone.

That said, with regards to the Operative/Smuggler in PvE, try going Lethality (the shared spec) and seeing how your numbers look. This spec is DOT heavy and frees up some of the reliance on being behind the target at all times, and is also very mobile. That is of course if you're still playing.

[termokanden]

About the buffing/nerfing, I'm speaking in more general terms here. TOR is still relatively new, but it appeared to me that it was going overboard with the balancing in typical MMO fashion. I can only hope this changes. Furthermore, it's the whole PvE vs PvP deal. I am exclusively a PvE player. I will play PvP a tiny bit if and only if it gives me a boost to PvE, and I won't have much fun doing it.

I'm sorry, but it annoys me to no end that they can't balance the two separately or at least take the other into consideration when balancing one aspect. It's an issue that is more general than TOR, but sadly TOR has failed to come up with a good solution.

Not that it's a reason to abandon the game. Just saying.

Veex: I switched to a sniper anyway a long time ago. Very nice and fun class and I don't really have any issues with it.

[Elhanan]

termokanden wrote...

About the buffing/nerfing, I'm speaking in more general terms here. TOR is still relatively new, but it appeared to me that it was going overboard with the balancing in typical MMO fashion. I can only hope this changes. Furthermore, it's the whole PvE vs PvP deal. I am exclusively a PvE player. I will play PvP a tiny bit if and only if it gives me a boost to PvE, and I won't have much fun doing it.

I'm sorry, but it annoys me to no end that they can't balance the two separately or at least take the other into consideration when balancing one aspect. It's an issue that is more general than TOR, but sadly TOR has failed to come up with a good solution.

Not that it's a reason to abandon the game. Just saying.

Veex: I switched to a sniper anyway a long time ago. Very nice and fun class and I don't really have any issues with it.

And to me, based on the few times the game has received such 'balancing;, it is too early to make such sweeping observations. For me, I hope they sieze the opportunity to remove comparisions and become their own unique brand, but such association may be positive when introducing a product in the early stages; helps make some feel comfortable.

Getting annoyed because your PvE sufddenly became harder is fine, but there should be an end to it. After all, it has only occured a little.

Modifié par Elhanan, 18 juin 2012 - 11:44 .

[Morroian]

termokanden wrote...

About the buffing/nerfing, I'm speaking in more general terms here. TOR is still relatively new, but it appeared to me that it was going overboard with the balancing in typical MMO fashion.

I'd agree with that for patches 1.2 and now 1.3, I'd rather they make incremental changes. Its annoying but not a reason to quit the game I still enjoy both PvP and PvE with my Sentinel, tank Shadow, healing Operative and dps Powertech.

[Veex]

termokanden wrote...

About the buffing/nerfing, I'm speaking in more general terms here. TOR is still relatively new, but it appeared to me that it was going overboard with the balancing in typical MMO fashion. I can only hope this changes. Furthermore, it's the whole PvE vs PvP deal. I am exclusively a PvE player. I will play PvP a tiny bit if and only if it gives me a boost to PvE, and I won't have much fun doing it.

I'm sorry, but it annoys me to no end that they can't balance the two separately or at least take the other into consideration when balancing one aspect. It's an issue that is more general than TOR, but sadly TOR has failed to come up with a good solution.

Not that it's a reason to abandon the game. Just saying.

Veex: I switched to a sniper anyway a long time ago. Very nice and fun class and I don't really have any issues with it.

I enjoy Snipers/Gunslingers as well, they're quite fun, especially in PvE.

I personally think that, balance wise, TOR is miles ahead of or on par with other class based MMOs. There isn't a Bright Wizard fiasco in TOR right now and I think a lot of people have a hard time looking at balance in an objective fashion. I do empathize with your concern though, incremental changes are certainly favorable over several large changes at once.

[Cyberarmy]

Ah good'ol Bright Wizard days and pawning low-lifes without clothes

Warhammer had no balance or whatsoever. Me as an Ironbreaker and my mate as a Warrior Priest. We were happily killing 15-20 Chaos scums who tried to zerg us.
Another potential gem ruined due to being rushed. We actually paid for a beta game.
(cant believe i bought CE... at least i have a nice mouse pad now...)

[Chromie]

Cyberarmy wrote...

Ah good'ol Bright Wizard days and pawning low-lifes without clothes

Warhammer had no balance or whatsoever.

I know it leaves me less than hopeful for TOR since Mythic pretty much runs TOR.

[Elhanan]

Skelter192 wrote...

I know it leaves me less than hopeful for TOR since Mythic pretty much runs TOR.

Source?

[Chromie]

Elhanan wrote...

Skelter192 wrote...

I know it leaves me less than hopeful for TOR since Mythic pretty much runs TOR.

Source?

First link. EA fired people and merged the remaining Mythic employees with Bioware.

Gabe Amatangelo is the Lead Game designer who worked on both Warhammer and now TOR. He designs flashpoints, operations and pvp which is obviously the endgame for most people.

Mark Jacobs the Lead Game Designer for Dark Age of Camelot (which has the best pvp in an MMO ever) left when EA merged the two companies and since then Mythic hasn't been able to recreate the awesomeness of DaoC's pvp. Frankly everything that made Warhammer bad (it was great once) is starting to find it's way into TOR.

Modifié par Skelter192, 19 juin 2012 - 04:59 .

[Veex]

Skelter192 wrote...

I know it leaves me less than hopeful for TOR since Mythic pretty much runs TOR.

They've got ex SWG devs in power positions also. The fact of the matter is that developers jump houses all the time, especially in MMOs.

[Chromie]

Veex wrote...

Skelter192 wrote...

I know it leaves me less than hopeful for TOR since Mythic pretty much runs TOR.

They've got ex SWG devs in power positions also. The fact of the matter is that developers jump houses all the time, especially in MMOs.

Do they? If true then it's sad how TOR is. I didn't expect a sandbox but come on I did expect some of what made SWG great to find it's way in especially crafting.

[Elhanan]

Skelter192 wrote...

First link. EA fired people and merged the remaining Mythic employees with Bioware.

Gabe Amatangelo is the Lead Game designer who worked on both Warhammer and now TOR. He designs flashpoints, operations and pvp which is obviously the endgame for most people.

Mark Jacobs the Lead Game Designer for Dark Age of Camelot (which has the best pvp in an MMO ever) left when EA merged the two companies and since then Mythic hasn't been able to recreate the awesomeness of DaoC's pvp. Frankly everything that made Warhammer bad (it was great once) is starting to find it's way into TOR.

The first and second may be factual, but a single designer plus some of that team team does not equate to running the show. And Endgame may not be the the goal for everyone; could be the journey to getting there.

The last is total conjecture. Maybe this was or was not the brains of some other PvP system; may have nothing to do with the results seen in either other game. And where is DAoC today?

And even if the entire Bioware Austin team were former Mythic folks, this does not equate to your review of failed PvP, crafting, TOR as a whole, etc as factual. It is seemingly the biased opinion of one MMO wanderer. And considering the admissions of prior 'PvP experiences, not being able to repeat those in TOR is apparently a good thing.