52 réponses à ce sujet

[arcane-weirdo]

*smashes violin* I hate those friggin' things

[DPSSOC]

Davillo wrote...

There are no theories about how she survived, he death is not cannon for Dragon Age and bioware does not care if she died in you play through, and neither do I. I am glad they made her important in DA:2.

She had one scene at the very end of the vanilla game.  Even if you get the DLC she's never integral to the main plot and only get's two more scenes; neither of which amount to anything.  What definition of important are you working off of?

thats1evildude wrote...
Out of curiousity, what is the problem with accepting what she says, again? That the Maker brought her back to life? I'm pretty sure that, as a deity, he can probably do all sorts of miraculous things.

A few things (for me anyway). First that's not an explanation, it's no different then saying a wizard did it. Second it's still up in the air as to whether any of the gods in this universe (Old Gods excepted perhaps) actually exist. Not to mention it is common for the incredibly pious to give their deity credit despite mundane explanations (Elthina giving the Maker credit for stopping the Blight). Then there's the whole fact that the Maker, if he does exist, is a do nothing deity, he's still sulking because his revolutionist wife got killed and he doesn't care about the world anymore. So Lelianna would have to completely abandon her own theology for that explanation to hold.

And I will grant you that most (if not all) of that is just me being nit picky but the BSN wouldn't be the BSN if it's members didn't furiously pick nits like amphetamine fueled chimps.

As for my theory on what happened I'm going with the simple, she was close to death when the Warden left but managed to hold on long enough to use some poultices and an injury kit; her comment about the Maker being more figurative (the Maker gave her the strength to hold on long enough to heal herself).  It's been established that kill animations are not canon so the decap problem doesn't apply.

[Halberd96]

Well the decapitation is just a combat mechanic but I'm pretty sure we all know that.

I think the best explanation for it is that she used some of the ashes in the room which makes perfect sense. Bioware are lucky they can get away this time with something like this.

[aries1001]

I think Lead Writer David Gaider said when we last - or one of the many times we've - discussed this particular theme, that there was and is an explanation for Leliana being alive. However, they as in Bioware, was not ready to provide (give) us that explanation yet. As for the codex entries, David Gaider once said that they were written from a certain perspective e.g. we need to interpret them and analyze them and make a messenger critical reading. This means that it could be something say Brother Genitivi has heard from someone else, in case of Leliana's death - from the Warden. And who is to say that the Warden told the truth of what happened in the cave with the red lyrium and Andraste's Ashes...

As for Leliana being alive at the end - or in the middle - of DA2, I've always personally contrubuted it to her Feign Death abilities (as a bard) and the lred yrium in those mountans. I also like the idea that Leliana in reality is the Divine, or perhaps Andraste...

[LobselVith8]

Tirigon wrote...

I go with "BioWare imposed a canon even if it retcons your choices".

Pretty much.

[ImperialHeir]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

I go with "BioWare imposed a canon even if it retcons your choices".

Pretty much.

I third this opinion.

*smashes computer*

Modifié par ImperialHeir, 29 mai 2012 - 07:58 .

[Lazy Jer]

She got better.

[Newnation]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

nightscrawl wrote...

Rofl! Can that actually happen??

Supposedly. It's never happened to me, but the wiki says it is possible. Has a picture to prove it too.

That has definitely happened to me a few times.

After IT I really don't want to hear anything more about theories....not even the theory of relativity.

[TJX2045]

Because Cassandra would have no one notable or well known to make a cameo when she needs to complain about Varric's story at the end.

And because plot device?

Like Flemeth is going to be I'm guessing? I was kind of mad about Flemeth being in DA2 as a somewhat main character/plot device when she was able to be killed in DAO until I realized that Morrigan knew she would come back to life again and mentioned it in Origins. Though I'm more concerned as to how Flemeth went from a hag in DAO to an old woman with a sex symbol body, especially when you first see her in DA2 is before the Warden kills her if your Warden decided to confront her. Woo body retcons.

Modifié par TJX2045, 30 mai 2012 - 07:38 .

[whykikyouwhy]

TJX2045 wrote...
Though I'm more concerned as to how Flemeth went from a hag in DAO to an old woman with a sex symbol body, especially when you first see her in DA2 is before the Warden kills her if your Warden decided to confront her. Woo body retcons.

Well, she is a shapeshifter. She likely chose to appear to the Warden and to Hawke in a form that would best prompt the PC to do her bidding. The Warden awakens in the hut of the infamous Witch of the Wilds, thus an old hag-form best fits that legend. Hawke is rescued from a horde of darkspawn, thus a dragon shifting into an armored warrior-witch best fits that moment.

Could be that the dragon part of Flemeth is her true form, and anything human-looking is simply what she shifts into as needed. Doesn't seem like a retcon to me.

[Lenimph]

She snorted Andraste's Ashes

[Urzon]

Lenimph wrote...

She snorted Andraste's Ashes

Aaaaaahhhhh..... saint-y......

[TJX2045]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

TJX2045 wrote...
Though I'm more concerned as to how Flemeth went from a hag in DAO to an old woman with a sex symbol body, especially when you first see her in DA2 is before the Warden kills her if your Warden decided to confront her. Woo body retcons.

Well, she is a shapeshifter. She likely chose to appear to the Warden and to Hawke in a form that would best prompt the PC to do her bidding. The Warden awakens in the hut of the infamous Witch of the Wilds, thus an old hag-form best fits that legend. Hawke is rescued from a horde of darkspawn, thus a dragon shifting into an armored warrior-witch best fits that moment.

Could be that the dragon part of Flemeth is her true form, and anything human-looking is simply what she shifts into as needed. Doesn't seem like a retcon to me.

If Flemeth's Dragon Form is her true form, then that could be understandable.  However, if her human form is her actual form, it goes against what Morrigan says in terms of Shapeshifters.  They cannot shift into other humans if their true form is that of a human, so Flemeth would still be the same ugly hag if that was her true form regardless of how beautiful she tried to make herself.

[ReallyRue]

TJX2045 wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

TJX2045 wrote...
Though I'm more concerned as to how Flemeth went from a hag in DAO to an old woman with a sex symbol body, especially when you first see her in DA2 is before the Warden kills her if your Warden decided to confront her. Woo body retcons.

Well, she is a shapeshifter. She likely chose to appear to the Warden and to Hawke in a form that would best prompt the PC to do her bidding. The Warden awakens in the hut of the infamous Witch of the Wilds, thus an old hag-form best fits that legend. Hawke is rescued from a horde of darkspawn, thus a dragon shifting into an armored warrior-witch best fits that moment.

Could be that the dragon part of Flemeth is her true form, and anything human-looking is simply what she shifts into as needed. Doesn't seem like a retcon to me.

If Flemeth's Dragon Form is her true form, then that could be understandable.  However, if her human form is her actual form, it goes against what Morrigan says in terms of Shapeshifters.  They cannot shift into other humans if their true form is that of a human, so Flemeth would still be the same ugly hag if that was her true form regardless of how beautiful she tried to make herself.

Morrigan says that she personally doesn't care to shapeshift into other human shapes because it doesn't offer her anything she can't already experience as a human. She does, on the other hand, mention in a banter with a companion about her mother seducing [Chasind?] men that it's possible her mother transforms into a more appealing form in order to do it, as opposed to raping them while in the form of an old hag. I would imagine a more appealing form would be a younger and more attractive woman, not say, a horse or some other animal.

[nightscrawl]

DPSSOC wrote...

... the BSN wouldn't be the BSN if it's members didn't furiously pick nits like amphetamine fueled chimps.

As for my theory on what happened I'm going with the simple, she was close to death when the Warden left but managed to hold on long enough to use some poultices and an injury kit; her comment about the Maker being more figurative (the Maker gave her the strength to hold on long enough to heal herself).  It's been established that kill animations are not canon so the decap problem doesn't apply.

Rofl I'd use that in my sig if I didn't have it full of links. I like your theory, I'd go with that if she had ever died in my plays.

[Salaya]

To me, it was a lazyness. As many, many other things in Dragon Effect 2.

I would rather see BW saying that they prefer to make her canon, than coming with some weird and unbelivable explanations, like the ones showing in this thread.

I find extremely ridiculous that Andraste's ashes heal Leliana's serious case of beheaded body. And saying that decapitation is just a flashy thing to make combat cool and that we do not have to take it seriously is even worse. If a beheaded character speaks in the next scene with his/her full head restored is just pure lazyness, an error by BW part. Or we just need to ignore a (serious, not comedy) film that makes beheaded characters speak without any expalantion?

But, of course, its just my opinion.

[Sabriana]

Let's not forget the 'flashy animations'. Yeah, that's so great for a game that's supposed to be an RPG. Show, don't tell fell by the wayside. People are telling me that beheaded NPC's are still alive. I call bulldroppings.

Then I'm being told that codex and in-game information isn't 'really cannon and might not be true'. More like rumours and such. Bioware created such a wonderful setting with DAO. Now they are seemingly destroying it. More bulldroppings. DAO is such a great game. Why is it being ripped appart with such things as 'handwaving', 'rumours', 'we've dismissed that claim'?

Leliana never died in any of my play-throughs. However, she can die, but now it's retconned. In a bad way. If it was supposed to be ambiguous, it should have been *shown* in-game.

I will just keep on pretending that DA2 never happened. It's just a bad expansion (like Awakening, imo). The only thing I will always regret is going out and buying it on release date based solely on my trust in the company who developed it.

[cJohnOne]

Is Andraste dead? Maybe her spirit restored Leliana.

[Face of Evil]

Sabriana wrote...

I will just keep on pretending that DA2 never happened. It's just a bad expansion (like Awakening, imo). The only thing I will always regret is going out and buying it on release date based solely on my trust in the company who developed it.

And if Leliana returns in DA3 as a playable party member or major NPC? Gonna squint really hard and pretend she's not there?

cJohnOne wrote...

Is Andraste dead? Maybe her spirit restored Leliana.

Or maybe it was the Maker.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 31 mai 2012 - 11:07 .

[Issala]

I honestly don't see how this is such a huge problem. Look at Baldur's Gate. You could kill characters off and they still showed up in the second game. The fact that so many of a player's decisions carry over as it is, that's pretty impressive. Tailoring a game to fit every single possible outcome, choice, and whether or not so-and-so got their head lopped off would take a ridiculous amount of work and development, not to mention taking up a lot of resources. Occasionally forcing canon is necessary for the story to continue on. Coherently, at least.

[CrimsonZephyr]

THE POWER OF THE RETCON!

BASK IN IT!

[nightscrawl]

Sabriana wrote...

Then I'm being told that codex and in-game information isn't 'really cannon and might not be true'. More like rumours and such. Bioware created such a wonderful setting with DAO. Now they are seemingly destroying it. More bulldroppings. DAO is such a great game. Why is it being ripped appart with such things as 'handwaving', 'rumours', 'we've dismissed that claim'?

This is, and should be, the same with any sort of historical information. If you have five books about President Lincoln that say that he hosted White House parties in his underwear, it is more credible than if claimed by a single random author, no matter his/her credentials.

And too, we don't know what Bioware has planned for Leliana, or their future stated explanation for her survival. We might think it's the most awesome thing created for any game lore ever. I think we should at least give them that chance.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 01 juin 2012 - 01:35 .

[Samzo77]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

TJX2045 wrote...
Though I'm more concerned as to how Flemeth went from a hag in DAO to an old woman with a sex symbol body, especially when you first see her in DA2 is before the Warden kills her if your Warden decided to confront her. Woo body retcons.

Well, she is a shapeshifter. She likely chose to appear to the Warden and to Hawke in a form that would best prompt the PC to do her bidding. The Warden awakens in the hut of the infamous Witch of the Wilds, thus an old hag-form best fits that legend. Hawke is rescued from a horde of darkspawn, thus a dragon shifting into an armored warrior-witch best fits that moment.

Could be that the dragon part of Flemeth is her true form, and anything human-looking is simply what she shifts into as needed. Doesn't seem like a retcon to me.

I attributed to the idea that the story was told by Varric, which meant it was embellished. That concept was mentioned in the Gameinformer article when DA2 was the cover story, not just for Flemeth, but for the entire game.

[DarkDragon777]

An artificial Leliana was built by the pro-Chantry organization Chantrius.