192 réponses à ce sujet

[ReXspec]

deathlord413 wrote...

This has got to be one of the worst ideas imaginable. If you are afraid of what your fans are going to think of your game do private QA testing with randomly selected groups, don't just open it up so that anyone can chime in. The idea here just boggles my mind. I can't stand the idea of creating something for a group of people like this.

Games are supposed to be something that a team creates and then goes "Hey guys look what we made. What do ya think?" This mentality has been lost both on the developers and even more so on the gamers themselves. We as a community need to voice our opinions but we shouldn't try and force developers to cater to what we want. If we do that the game industry will turn into the a carbon copy of the shlop that comes out of hollywood at this point. They folks there are finally starting to figure out that originality sells not and endless tirade of sequels.

I assume this is running off the assumption that you think the fans are going to want full control of the plot and story of DA3, right?  I honestly believe that isn't the case here.  We don't want full control, we only want them to listen to our feedback as far as story goes in pre-development stages and consider our ideas.  They are trying to mitigate the risk of having a handful of people take it upon themselves to create the story at any point--that was the same mistake the producers of ME3 made.  They took on creating the final 1% of the game upon themselves without running their idea through any sort of peer review. 

[Geneaux486]

Sesshomaru47 wrote...

They never said they had use or act on any idea out forward by fans. It's a ruse the appease people after ME3.

Nevermind the fact that they've acted on fan feedback a lot in the past.  There's no reason to assume they're being dishonest when they're claiming they'll do something we've seen them do several times before.

[robertm2]

Hasn't this always been what they have prided themselves on? Every time a game comes out they say they are taking alot of fan feedback into account so how is this any different?

[Geneaux486]

robertm2 wrote...

Hasn't this always been what they have prided themselves on? Every time a game comes out they say they are taking alot of fan feedback into account so how is this any different?

^Sanity

[deathlord413]

[quote]ReXspec wrote...

They did use this method before ME3.  It's the reason why the planet scanning was made much less time consuming, and the reason they showed Tali's face at all (I know, I know, it's based on a free stock photo and we only see it in a picture, but I get the sense that we were lucky to get anything at all in that regard).[/quote]

Well game mechanics are one thing, but story?  Come on... I expect the writers to be able to get a sense of what is thematically and narratively correct.  We shouldn't HAVE to tell them what we expect, but here it is:  The oppurtunity to make DA3's good through fan feedback.

All I'm saying is, I wish they took feedback as far as story goes.

[/quote]

But doesn't this destroy the reason for purchasing a game? When you buy a game, go to a movie, or read a damn book, you have absolutely no idea of what's going to happen, unless you read spoilers before hand. That's one of the reasons I hate reading what I've written, or writing it for that matter, I know what's going to happen so making it sound right on paper can be hard. I have to give what I have to other people so that I know that the themes are coming across correctly. I like them to tell me what they thought of the story, but I take what they say with a grain of salt. I just think that by crowdsourcing DA3 like this could just lead to them picking the most popular idea despite it being a good one or not. 

[ReXspec]

Geneaux486 wrote...

ReXspec wrote...
Well game mechanics are one thing, but story?  Come on... I expect the writers to be able to get a sense of what is thematically and narratively correct.  We shouldn't HAVE to tell them what we expect, but here it is:  The oppurtunity to make DA3's good through fan feedback.

All I'm saying is, I wish they took feedback as far as story goes.

Well, we're not going to see eye to eye on that one, 'cause I think the basic concepts behind the ending were great, and that it was just the execution that could have been a lot better. 

Actually, we may see eye-to-eye moreso than you think.  The ending was unsatisfactory to some degree, yes?  If they had implemented something like this before the development of ME3 I honestly think a lot of the problems and inconsistencies that plague the story now could have been eliminated or at least ironed out.  All they want is a fan think-tank for the developers to work off of.

I think that is a brilliant idea.

[zovoes]

Geneaux486 wrote...

zovoes wrote...

you know the funny thing is i can see the DA team doing this, i mean they are the ONLY ones who have been talking to us through this whole thing and not talking down to us. they are at least taking something from this mess.

I don't think you're giving the ME3 team enough credit.  Right now they're doing the two most important things to this whole process:  listening and working on the EC.  It's not like they've given us nothing, they told us straight up that they're working on free DLC to help make the ending satisfactory to more, and I definetely don't agree that they've been talking down to us.  All the while they continue to let us speak freely on the forums (even letting most of the nastier things be said about them), much to their credit. 

the only way to make the story more palatable to most people is to take a red pin to it, they are not doing this. at best with the EC they are puting good writing after bad and that never really works. it is free because if the put a price on it the would be dead as a dev and they know this, it's the only way they can even get it out the door at this point. they have been tlking down to us from the start, they wanted us to be debating over the endings for a long time to come and when we didn't they let loose on us. every time some one has put forth valid criticism they have said that we just don't get it and should think about it more. as for them letting us use the forums, just think what would happen if they started to shut down stuff, do you think that would win them fans? they have lied and insulted and now other teams are paying the price for it, i give them the credit they are do, this is a rolay **** up and the need to be put to task for it.
 

[Geneaux486]

ReXspec wrote...
Actually, we may see eye-to-eye moreso than you think.  The ending was unsatisfactory to some degree, yes?  If they had implemented something like this before the development of ME3 I honestly think a lot of the problems and inconsistencies that plague the story now could have been eliminated or at least ironed out.  All they want is a fan think-tank for the developers to work off of.

I think that is a brilliant idea.

Oh yeah, in regards to whether or not it's a good idea we definetely agree, I meant the quality of the endings specifically.  I have issues with the ending, but only with its execution, not the ideas behind it.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 27 mai 2012 - 03:44 .

[kglaser]

ReXspec wrote...

Responding to fan feedback and taking consideration of what fans actually want...

Like they were supposed to do IN THE F*CKING FIRST PLACE.

+10,000

[ReXspec]

[quote]deathlord413 wrote...

[quote]ReXspec wrote...

They did use this method before ME3.  It's the reason why the planet scanning was made much less time consuming, and the reason they showed Tali's face at all (I know, I know, it's based on a free stock photo and we only see it in a picture, but I get the sense that we were lucky to get anything at all in that regard).[/quote]

Well game mechanics are one thing, but story?  Come on... I expect the writers to be able to get a sense of what is thematically and narratively correct.  We shouldn't HAVE to tell them what we expect, but here it is:  The oppurtunity to make DA3's good through fan feedback.

All I'm saying is, I wish they took feedback as far as story goes.

[/quote]

But doesn't this destroy the reason for purchasing a game? When you buy a game, go to a movie, or read a damn book, you have absolutely no idea of what's going to happen, unless you read spoilers before hand. That's one of the reasons I hate reading what I've written, or writing it for that matter, I know what's going to happen so making it sound right on paper can be hard. I have to give what I have to other people so that I know that the themes are coming across correctly. I like them to tell me what they thought of the story, but I take what they say with a grain of salt. I just think that by crowdsourcing DA3 like this could just lead to them picking the most popular idea despite it being a good one or not. 
[/quote]

Not exactly, because the producers of the game can still make the aspects of the story unique, while making the execution of said story smooth.  Think of it as a technical support service for the story.  Game developers do this with alpha releases all the time.  It's unfinished content, and an unfinished story.  The developers already have a general plot in mind, but the testers can say, "Well, this doesn't make sense."  Games developers already have processes like this in place and for the aforementioned reasons.  But the key thing to keep in mind is that the ultimate choice of the story lies with the developer and that, we cannot predict.  We simply have to have faith that they won't cut out their own peers in that review process like they did with ME3...

[deathlord413]

ReXspec wrote...

deathlord413 wrote...

This has got to be one of the worst ideas imaginable. If you are afraid of what your fans are going to think of your game do private QA testing with randomly selected groups, don't just open it up so that anyone can chime in. The idea here just boggles my mind. I can't stand the idea of creating something for a group of people like this.

Games are supposed to be something that a team creates and then goes "Hey guys look what we made. What do ya think?" This mentality has been lost both on the developers and even more so on the gamers themselves. We as a community need to voice our opinions but we shouldn't try and force developers to cater to what we want. If we do that the game industry will turn into the a carbon copy of the shlop that comes out of hollywood at this point. They folks there are finally starting to figure out that originality sells not and endless tirade of sequels.

I assume this is running off the assumption that you think the fans are going to want full control of the plot and story of DA3, right?  I honestly believe that isn't the case here.  We don't want full control, we only want them to listen to our feedback as far as story goes in pre-development stages and consider our ideas.  They are trying to mitigate the risk of having a handful of people take it upon themselves to create the story at any point--that was the same mistake the producers of ME3 made.  They took on creating the final 1% of the game upon themselves without running their idea through any sort of peer review. 

That's what makes the creative process so great. The failures make the success all the more sweet. Imagine if the ones who wrote the ending had been able to effectivly convey what they wanted to, I feel they almost hit the mark, the fans would have be flabbergahsted and would have cheered BW for an artistic triumph. Instead they had to slap it together at the last minute, thanks EA, and we got an ending that requires a lot of thought to see what they were trying to say. 

I don't want any fan input into the story, the only thing fans should have any say in is the game-play. The story should be only up to the creative team behind the game. 

EDIT: 
I just wanted to say that I disagree with your sig. Fans are not part of the development process they are the consumer and while the developers, producers, and writers, need to make things that the fans will enjoy they shouldn't be afraid to take risks and come up with ideas on thier own and field them privately before revealing them to the public. If people don't like the game-play that's one thing, but the story should be solely up to the three I mentioned.  

Modifié par deathlord413, 27 mai 2012 - 04:03 .

[liggy002]

   But they do need gameplay ideas from fans.... they've stripped the RPG elements from the first Dragon Age.  The story is one thing but the gameplay?  It is essential that they get input there.

  Also, while I do appreciate this gesture from Bioware, I have to reiterate that I would like to see the IT included in the EC.  It all depends on the EC for me.  My focus is entirely on what they do with Mass Effect 3.  If they botch that, then they will lose my loyalty as a customer.

[Geneaux486]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Quick thought: A lot of people want full control on the endings.

Take the left path.

[sistersafetypin]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Quick thought: A lot of people want full control on the endings.

Doesn't mean they'll ever have it

[ReXspec]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Quick thought: A lot of people want full control on the endings.

Wait, what?

Define, "full control?"

[devSin]

What a load of garbage. BioWare is doing no such thing.

Mike and David know what is going to happen in DA3. They neither need nor want your help in writing the story.

If that's what you think they've been asking, you need to go back and examine the things they've actually said the past few months.

[TeffexPope]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

BioWare has finally caved completly. Get angry enough at a story and you can put shackles on a dev.

Fans are essentially going to write DA3


Changing an ending is one thing, but now they can't even write a story the way they want to. smh.

And if they intended for DA3 to end with a character introduced in the last five minutes and with a deus ex machina, you'd rather they do that?

You don't get to complain about what they write, ala ME3, and at the same time complain that they aren't writing enough on their own, ala what they're doing with DA3 now.

[ReXspec]

deathlord413 wrote...

ReXspec wrote...

deathlord413 wrote...

This has got to be one of the worst ideas imaginable. If you are afraid of what your fans are going to think of your game do private QA testing with randomly selected groups, don't just open it up so that anyone can chime in. The idea here just boggles my mind. I can't stand the idea of creating something for a group of people like this.

Games are supposed to be something that a team creates and then goes "Hey guys look what we made. What do ya think?" This mentality has been lost both on the developers and even more so on the gamers themselves. We as a community need to voice our opinions but we shouldn't try and force developers to cater to what we want. If we do that the game industry will turn into the a carbon copy of the shlop that comes out of hollywood at this point. They folks there are finally starting to figure out that originality sells not and endless tirade of sequels.

I assume this is running off the assumption that you think the fans are going to want full control of the plot and story of DA3, right?  I honestly believe that isn't the case here.  We don't want full control, we only want them to listen to our feedback as far as story goes in pre-development stages and consider our ideas.  They are trying to mitigate the risk of having a handful of people take it upon themselves to create the story at any point--that was the same mistake the producers of ME3 made.  They took on creating the final 1% of the game upon themselves without running their idea through any sort of peer review. 

That's what makes the creative process so great. The failures make the success all the more sweet. Imagine if the ones who wrote the ending had been able to effectivly convey what they wanted to, I feel they almost hit the mark, the fans would have be flabbergahsted and would have cheered BW for an artistic triumph. Instead they had to slap it together at the last minute, thanks EA, and we got an ending that requires a lot of thought to see what they were trying to say. 

I don't want any fan input into the story, the only thing fans should have any say in is the game-play. The story should be only up to the creative team behind the game. 

I agree, I do not think fans should be writing the story, but I think they should give positive or negative feedback on how it is executed (NOT decide on how it is executed).

and I honestly hope you are right about the sentiment of them learning from their mistakes...

[ReXspec]

devSin wrote...

What a load of garbage. BioWare is doing no such thing.

Mike and David know what is going to happen in DA3. They neither need nor want your help in writing the story.

If that's what you think they've been asking, you need to go back and examine the things they've actually said the past few months.

they never said, "help"  they said "listening to feedback."

I hope that is what you were implying.

[mpgeist]

They'll put all this feedback into the round file with the rest of it.

[QwertyMusicMan]

They're not doing that at all. Sometimes good suggestions do come out of fans' heads, too. OP overstated this matter.

zovoes wrote...

seeing as how things have gone over they need some outside help. DA2 and ME3 both are poor games as far as story goes and if DA3 is the same then bioware WILL go under. they can't take the heat from ME3 failing how do you think they will take their last flagship title bombing?

What? Mass Effect 3 and Dragon Age II sold extremely well. From a financial standpoint, there's no way Bioware could go under if DA3 doesn't do well (which is doubtful in the first place).

[devSin]

ReXspec wrote...

they never said, "help"  they said "listening to feedback."

I hope that is what you were implying.

No, the suggestion here is that fans will somehow help author the story.

Sorry, but you won't, and if you think you will, you need to go back and look at what they've actually said.

This is not to say that David couldn't decide to reveal more or less of Flemeth's story in DA3 based on fan feedback, for instance, but you will not ever have any say in that story.

That story is already there, and it's up to the team to decide when to reveal it.

[deathlord413]

ReXspec wrote...

deathlord413 wrote...

ReXspec wrote...

deathlord413 wrote...

This has got to be one of the worst ideas imaginable. If you are afraid of what your fans are going to think of your game do private QA testing with randomly selected groups, don't just open it up so that anyone can chime in. The idea here just boggles my mind. I can't stand the idea of creating something for a group of people like this.

Games are supposed to be something that a team creates and then goes "Hey guys look what we made. What do ya think?" This mentality has been lost both on the developers and even more so on the gamers themselves. We as a community need to voice our opinions but we shouldn't try and force developers to cater to what we want. If we do that the game industry will turn into the a carbon copy of the shlop that comes out of hollywood at this point. They folks there are finally starting to figure out that originality sells not and endless tirade of sequels.

I assume this is running off the assumption that you think the fans are going to want full control of the plot and story of DA3, right?  I honestly believe that isn't the case here.  We don't want full control, we only want them to listen to our feedback as far as story goes in pre-development stages and consider our ideas.  They are trying to mitigate the risk of having a handful of people take it upon themselves to create the story at any point--that was the same mistake the producers of ME3 made.  They took on creating the final 1% of the game upon themselves without running their idea through any sort of peer review. 

That's what makes the creative process so great. The failures make the success all the more sweet. Imagine if the ones who wrote the ending had been able to effectivly convey what they wanted to, I feel they almost hit the mark, the fans would have be flabbergahsted and would have cheered BW for an artistic triumph. Instead they had to slap it together at the last minute, thanks EA, and we got an ending that requires a lot of thought to see what they were trying to say. 

I don't want any fan input into the story, the only thing fans should have any say in is the game-play. The story should be only up to the creative team behind the game. 

I agree, I do not think fans should be writing the story, but I think they should give positive or negative feedback on how it is executed (NOT decide on how it is executed).

and I honestly hope you are right about the sentiment of them learning from their mistakes...

I think I'm starting to see where you're coming from.

The issue is you can't get feedback in pre-production or during, at least not the kind I think you are wanting. That's reserved to QA testing and it's not what the article is talking about. To me it sounds like the article is saying that BW is going to field story ideas to the community and based on how the community reacts to those ideas is what they will decide to go with.

This might work if they remain really, really vague, but if they talk about details it starts becoming a crowdsourced game and not the creation of a development team. When a game like that is made is when I think gaming might enter a very dark age in which CoD will be seen as a beacon of originality and creativity.