230 réponses à ce sujet

[thesnake777]

Tazzmission wrote...

mmmmmmm i dont know because the being of light theory sounds more legit and heres why

me1. volus has a vision similar to shepard

me1 sovy even states theres a realm to wich we cant comprehend

me2. garrus even states he feels sorry for the collectors the reapers and whoever else comes after them


me3. shepard see's the boy and wile the boy go's onto the shuttle during reaper invasion nobody helps him and he stares at shepard twice

the dreams imo could be the catalyst saying the weapon is dangerous wich can lead to sheps death hence him/her burning


anderson and hackett both say they have concerns on how massive this energy would hit once the weapon is activated and if i remember the exact line i believe it was anderson who asked if itll cause a universal catastriphy


catalyst tells shepard he/she is the only organic to make it this far and the crucible changed the catalysts current plans on reapers bringing order to chaos

What exactly is the being of light theory your talking about?

[Catamantaloedis]

Interesting that no one has any legitimate refutations of our ideas.

[Tazzmission]

thesnake777 wrote...

Tazzmission wrote...

mmmmmmm i dont know because the being of light theory sounds more legit and heres why

me1. volus has a vision similar to shepard

me1 sovy even states theres a realm to wich we cant comprehend

me2. garrus even states he feels sorry for the collectors the reapers and whoever else comes after them


me3. shepard see's the boy and wile the boy go's onto the shuttle during reaper invasion nobody helps him and he stares at shepard twice

the dreams imo could be the catalyst saying the weapon is dangerous wich can lead to sheps death hence him/her burning


anderson and hackett both say they have concerns on how massive this energy would hit once the weapon is activated and if i remember the exact line i believe it was anderson who asked if itll cause a universal catastriphy


catalyst tells shepard he/she is the only organic to make it this far and the crucible changed the catalysts current plans on reapers bringing order to chaos

What exactly is the being of light theory your talking about?

mass effect 1 codex

Klencory is a rock and ice planet with an atmosphere composed of chlorine and argon. The frozen surface is mainly composed of potassium with deposits of iron.
Klencory is famously claimed by the eccentric volus billionaire Kumun Shol. He claims that a vision of a higher being told him to seek on Klencory the "lost crypts of beings of light." These entities were supposedly created at the dawn of time to protect organic life from synthetic "machine devils."




Shol has been excavating on Klencory's toxic surface for two decades, at great expense. No government has valued the world enough to evict his small army of mercenaries.




Mass Effect 3 codex
Klencory is a rock and ice planet with an atmosphere composed of chlorine and argon. The frozen surface is mainly composed of potassium with deposits of iron.
Klencory is famously claimed by the eccentric volus billionaire Kumun Shol. His once-ridiculed visions of "beings of light" protecting organic life from synthetic "machine devils" don't seem quite so far-fetched now. His private army of mercenaries are well-established on the planet, waiting for husks to come knocking in on their door. In all likelihood, they will be obliterated by the molten metal of a Reaper orbital bombardment, on its way to somewhere important.
http://masseffect.wi...m/wiki/Klencory

Modifié par Tazzmission, 27 mai 2012 - 06:58 .

[Aiyie]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

1. It's stated, numerous times, that the Reapers attacked Sanctuary because they knew Henry Lawson found a way to control them.

Exactly Cerberus can't be indoctrinated if they can control the Reapers. Hence, the Reapers attack Sanctuary because they have risen beyond indoctrination.
 
They have become superior.

two things...

1) it was confirmed by Bioware themselves, long before ME3 hit the shelves, that yes, TIM is in fact indoctrinated.

2) why should i believe that cerberus can actually control the Reapers?  lets see, from the Reaper's point of view, i can imagine the conversation...

Santctuary and cerberus overall in ME3 is win-win for the Reapers.  it distracts Shepard from fighting the Reapers themselves.  it takes even more humans out of the fight, or at the very least puts them in one easy to attack spot.  it allows the Reapers to focus on other things while TIM and Shep battle it out.

and most important... its not a threat.  TIM is indoctrinated (as Bioware has confirmed multiple times)... the Reapers are not going to allow TIM to actually reverse engineer indoctrination techniques that might pose a threat to them.

instead, they'll string him along only as long as he's useful in splitting the Reaper's enemies attention and resources.  when cerberus was no longer of any value to the Reapers, terrific, they're all holed up at Sanctuary, send some husks to wipe them out, then bring TIM to the citadel to throw at Shep one last time while we wrap up this silly little war against all galactic civilization.

[Leozilla]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

Darth_Trethon wrote...

Oh look......the BSN's own bridge resident....ain't you the same guy that posted about EDI being an abomination and the Krogan hate thread?

Yes, I did because they are factually inferior, or soulless.

I don't think you can really say the Krogan are inferior, if anything they are one of the fitest races in the ME universe, only below the Yahg

[Catamantaloedis]

If Cerberus was controlled by the Reapers then it would have been in their interests to prevent Cerberus from falling, which they do not do.

Additionally, the Illusive Man is not subservient to the Reapers in the same way that Saren was. He does everything in his power to find a way to defeat the Reapers, and he was successful, until Shepard came.

[Vigilant111]

Just because they are not indoctrinated does not mean they are heroes

[Catamantaloedis]

Leozilla wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

Darth_Trethon wrote...

Oh look......the BSN's own bridge resident....ain't you the same guy that posted about EDI being an abomination and the Krogan hate thread?

Yes, I did because they are factually inferior, or soulless.

I don't think you can really say the Krogan are inferior, if anything they are one of the fitest races in the ME universe, only below the Yahg

They are stronger physically but mentally inferior. Their minds are completely preoccupied with killing and unrestrained reproducing. They are a threat of galactic proportions.

[BackwardsMan4TW]

Indoctrination doesn't automatically convert a person's mind 100%. The idea is that it has slowly been taking over the IM's mind. By ME3, they've basically gone bad and are doing a bunch of stuff the reapers want them to, but that doesn't mean they don't still have some of their own intentions and free will left. When Cerberus used what little free will they had left to find that controlling the reapers was possible, the reapers intervened to put a stop to their research.

[Sisterofshane]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

If Cerberus was controlled by the Reapers then it would have been in their interests to prevent Cerberus from falling, which they do not do.

Additionally, the Illusive Man is not subservient to the Reapers in the same way that Saren was. He does everything in his power to find a way to defeat the Reapers, and he was successful, until Shepard came.

Except they do not treat the indoctrinated as allies, rather as tools.

The perfect analogy would be that as Tissues are to Sick People, so are the Indoctrinated to the Reapers.

They are used, and then discarded.

[Applepie_Svk]

1. Cerberus´s soldiers were clearly exposed to effects of indoctrination, there was entry which was talking about voices in their heads, also they were little similiar with husk. But they managed to keep their forces in line - drugs, implants hard to say take your pic.

Sanctuary was ambushed bucause the Cerberus realy found something useful, but this intel fail in the time when TIM eats unknown implants which turns him into something similiar like a Saren ...

2. As I said, TIM is head of Cerberus and he is the one who point any further movement of company but with that implants he become indoctrinated - that is in the last stage of game.

3. Cerberus and Catalyst are two different things which are independent on each other.
That means that whatever happen to Cerberus - Catalyst don´t give a crap about that, for Catalyst they are just a tool of single purpose. (if Catalyst exist ofc)
Otherwise Sheppard was one who was asking the Catalyst about control and Catalyst just confirms what Sheppard think about.
INDOCTRINATION:
Indoctrination - it´s a proces of mindwashing, it can take a hours, days, week, moths. Subjects of indoctrination is under influence of vivid dreams, voices, imaginations - which is trying to convince subject about changing of his mind, in the end indoctrination will break your will and turn you into mindless servant.
IF IT IS TRUE:
Than Sheppard gets only answers on his questions and speculations which bothering him since he found a higher presence on Citadel. Presence which clearly present something like a higher existence or reality which should now every answer.
IF NOT:
I hope that Walters and Hudson prepared hell of a good show up there or we will be doomed.

[Catamantaloedis]

BackwardsMan4TW wrote...

Indoctrination doesn't automatically convert a person's mind 100%. The idea is that it has slowly been taking over the IM's mind. By ME3, they've basically gone bad and are doing a bunch of stuff the reapers want them to, but that doesn't mean they don't still have some of their own intentions and free will left. When Cerberus used what little free will they had left to find that controlling the reapers was possible, the reapers intervened to put a stop to their research.

You're suggesting that they are actively finding ways to destroy the Reapers, while under Reaper influence? Sounds implausible.

This is irrelevant, anyway because Cerberus was successful, and the Reapers were afraid of them. Thats why they tried to destroy them. And the Reapers failed.

At least until they used their final asset, Shepard, to kill the Illusive Man right before he succeeded.

[Leozilla]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

Leozilla wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

Darth_Trethon wrote...

Oh look......the BSN's own bridge resident....ain't you the same guy that posted about EDI being an abomination and the Krogan hate thread?

Yes, I did because they are factually inferior, or soulless.

I don't think you can really say the Krogan are inferior, if anything they are one of the fitest races in the ME universe, only below the Yahg

They are stronger physically but mentally inferior. Their minds are completely preoccupied with killing and unrestrained reproducing. They are a threat of galactic proportions.

and the fact that they are a threat makes them superior, or at the very least equal to us and the rest of the council, and to an atheists we don't have souls so the Geth are not lesser than us because of a lack of something no one has. Back to the main point Cerberus was indoctrinated, but TIM wasn't fully up till the end.

[dreman9999]

thesnake777 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...


I'm not saying they were fully indoctrianted. I'm say  they were used as a very subtle tool...The tool just got out of control of the reapers. The reaper may have want to make cerberus make everyone an enemy but lost perspective of control.

I guess, but this would be the first tiime that happened, all other indoctrinated agents that we have dealt with ingame were fully under thier control, even the Rachni..I just dont see it, Cerberus has worked tireless to destroy the Reapers, I dont see the reapers useing them as a tool, they would most likly just try to wipe them out, as we saw at sancutary.

I'm not saying for the entire series. I mean if really started when they got the proto-reaper. Yes, they did try to stop the reapers but like Saren, they got absorbed as well.

[Catamantaloedis]

They are no more equal to the other civilizations as a deadly plague is an equal. The plague may be dangerous, but it is not human, or equal to a human.

[dreman9999]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

BackwardsMan4TW wrote...

Indoctrination doesn't automatically convert a person's mind 100%. The idea is that it has slowly been taking over the IM's mind. By ME3, they've basically gone bad and are doing a bunch of stuff the reapers want them to, but that doesn't mean they don't still have some of their own intentions and free will left. When Cerberus used what little free will they had left to find that controlling the reapers was possible, the reapers intervened to put a stop to their research.

You're suggesting that they are actively finding ways to destroy the Reapers, while under Reaper influence? Sounds implausible.

This is irrelevant, anyway because Cerberus was successful, and the Reapers were afraid of them. Thats why they tried to destroy them. And the Reapers failed.

At least until they used their final asset, Shepard, to kill the Illusive Man right before he succeeded.

That is very possible.. This was shown with Dr.Kennon in Arrival.

[Catamantaloedis]

But she turned from her goals when she was indoctrinated. The Illusive Man stuck with his until the very end.

[thesnake777]

Aiyie wrote...

two things...

1) it was confirmed by Bioware themselves, long before ME3 hit the shelves, that yes, TIM is in fact indoctrinated.

2) why should i believe that cerberus can actually control the Reapers?  lets see, from the Reaper's point of view, i can imagine the conversation...

Santctuary and cerberus overall in ME3 is win-win for the Reapers.  it distracts Shepard from fighting the Reapers themselves.  it takes even more humans out of the fight, or at the very least puts them in one easy to attack spot.  it allows the Reapers to focus on other things while TIM and Shep battle it out.

and most important... its not a threat.  TIM is indoctrinated (as Bioware has confirmed multiple times)... the Reapers are not going to allow TIM to actually reverse engineer indoctrination techniques that might pose a threat to them.

instead, they'll string him along only as long as he's useful in splitting the Reaper's enemies attention and resources.  when cerberus was no longer of any value to the Reapers, terrific, they're all holed up at Sanctuary, send some husks to wipe them out, then bring TIM to the citadel to throw at Shep one last time while we wrap up this silly little war against all galactic civilization.

Bioware has said alot of things, this cant be used a evidence. 
but if you bealieve this fine, When exactly was Cerberus and TIM indoctrinated?

as for your second point, how is sancuatry a win for the Reapers? It is not Cerberus base of operations, its a processing center. Cerberus is not "holed" up there. Civilians are brought in, turned into super soliders, and sent out to where ever they are neeeded for Cerberus operations. I also have to point out that the reverse indoctirnation your talking about was already perfected...thats why Cerberus has the large fighting force now. 
Also Cerberus is working hard to remain behind the scences alot of the conflicets that happen between Shep and Cerberus has to do with both sides are attempting to do two different things, they both want to deafeat the reapers (enslaveng them is the same as defeating them). 

[Aiyie]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

If Cerberus was controlled by the Reapers then it would have been in their interests to prevent Cerberus from falling, which they do not do.

Additionally, the Illusive Man is not subservient to the Reapers in the same way that Saren was. He does everything in his power to find a way to defeat the Reapers, and he was successful, until Shepard came.

wrong and wrong.

cerberus is an expendable tool to the Reapers.

they don't need cerberus.  but they are willing to use cerberus for as long as they're useful.  cerberus is nothing but a tool to the Reapers, from the Reaper's viewpoint cerbrus is no more a threat than anything else we have.  meaning no threat whatsoever.

so, yea, they'll use cerberus to make their jobs easier, but they won't shed a single tear when cerberus gets decimated.  after all, in the end, they'd need to kill cerberus off too, why not let us do their dirty work for them, like they're making cerberus do?

i never got the subservient vibe from Saren.  quite the opposite in fact, his chats with Shepard, both on Virmire and the citadel presented a pretty assertive personality that was driven to achieve what he thought was his own goals.

exactly like TIM... assertive, driven to achieve goals he belives are his own... but are in fact Reaper goals implanted in his psyche by his indoctrination.

[thesnake777]

dreman9999 wrote...

thesnake777 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...


I'm not saying they were fully indoctrianted. I'm say  they were used as a very subtle tool...The tool just got out of control of the reapers. The reaper may have want to make cerberus make everyone an enemy but lost perspective of control.

I guess, but this would be the first tiime that happened, all other indoctrinated agents that we have dealt with ingame were fully under thier control, even the Rachni..I just dont see it, Cerberus has worked tireless to destroy the Reapers, I dont see the reapers useing them as a tool, they would most likly just try to wipe them out, as we saw at sancutary.

I'm not saying for the entire series. I mean if really started when they got the proto-reaper. Yes, they did try to stop the reapers but like Saren, they got absorbed as well.

Saren was completely under Sovy's control for years, he wasent trying to destory the reapers but appease them, and by doing so he bealived that the reapers would spare Organics.....if that had worked we would look like collectors but I digress.

[Sisterofshane]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

But she turned from her goals when she was indoctrinated. The Illusive Man stuck with his until the very end.

He goes from telling Henry Lawson to find a way to control REAPERS (which Lawson was very skeptical of even being possible), to believing that he CAN control the Reapers through the crucible.  And with what evidence? What changed?

The only thing that was different about him was that he implanted himself with Reaper Tech.  Everyone else that was implanted with Reaper Tech was indoctrinated.

He was indoctrinated to believe that the Crucible would give him control of the Reapers, and yet he never actually let the damn thing dock with the citadel so that it could work - in fact, he outright STOPPED it from being allowed to dock.

[thesnake777]

Sisterofshane wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

But she turned from her goals when she was indoctrinated. The Illusive Man stuck with his until the very end.

He goes from telling Henry Lawson to find a way to control REAPERS (which Lawson was very skeptical of even being possible), to believing that he CAN control the Reapers through the crucible.  And with what evidence? What changed?

The only thing that was different about him was that he implanted himself with Reaper Tech.  Everyone else that was implanted with Reaper Tech was indoctrinated.

He was indoctrinated to believe that the Crucible would give him control of the Reapers, and yet he never actually let the damn thing dock with the citadel so that it could work - in fact, he outright STOPPED it from being allowed to dock.

So I figure your taking the ending at face value. We dont know exactly what he did to himself, but at the end TIM had the ability to control Organic life, that is some serious evidence to support the fact they he might have had the ability to control the reapers themselves. 

[Aiyie]

thesnake777 wrote...

Aiyie wrote...

two things...

1) it was confirmed by Bioware themselves, long before ME3 hit the shelves, that yes, TIM is in fact indoctrinated.

2) why should i believe that cerberus can actually control the Reapers?  lets see, from the Reaper's point of view, i can imagine the conversation...

Santctuary and cerberus overall in ME3 is win-win for the Reapers.  it distracts Shepard from fighting the Reapers themselves.  it takes even more humans out of the fight, or at the very least puts them in one easy to attack spot.  it allows the Reapers to focus on other things while TIM and Shep battle it out.

and most important... its not a threat.  TIM is indoctrinated (as Bioware has confirmed multiple times)... the Reapers are not going to allow TIM to actually reverse engineer indoctrination techniques that might pose a threat to them.

instead, they'll string him along only as long as he's useful in splitting the Reaper's enemies attention and resources.  when cerberus was no longer of any value to the Reapers, terrific, they're all holed up at Sanctuary, send some husks to wipe them out, then bring TIM to the citadel to throw at Shep one last time while we wrap up this silly little war against all galactic civilization.

Bioware has said alot of things, this cant be used a evidence. 
but if you bealieve this fine, When exactly was Cerberus and TIM indoctrinated?

as for your second point, how is sancuatry a win for the Reapers? It is not Cerberus base of operations, its a processing center. Cerberus is not "holed" up there. Civilians are brought in, turned into super soliders, and sent out to where ever they are neeeded for Cerberus operations. I also have to point out that the reverse indoctirnation your talking about was already perfected...thats why Cerberus has the large fighting force now. 
Also Cerberus is working hard to remain behind the scences alot of the conflicets that happen between Shep and Cerberus has to do with both sides are attempting to do two different things, they both want to deafeat the reapers (enslaveng them is the same as defeating them). 

heh, im going to save you saying that first bit... people all over the forums are whining about "SPECULATION!!!"... but when you can actually go back in the Casey Hudson's twitter feed and find where he confirms that the illusive man is indoctrinated... you deny that there's any credibility.

Sanctuary is a win for the Reapers because it works in accordance with their goals.

the reapers sole purpose is to wipe out/harvest all advanced life in the galaxy.

that purpose is made much easier when your opponents are too busy fighting themselves to focus their efforts against you.

its win-win for the Reapers because, if cerberus defeats Shepard, the benefits for the Reaper's are pretty self-evident.  but if Shepard defeats cerberus, it means that Shepard wasted valuable time and resources against cerberus instead of the Reapers, and it eliminates yet another potential asset for the enemy.

as for the reverse engineered indoctrination, i don't buy it being a legitimate threat for the same reason i don't buy control as being a legit option that leads to the elimination of the reaper threat.

with TIM being indoctrinated, and hence under Reaper control, by extension that means the cerberus troops are ultimately under Reaper control.

[RaenImrahl]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

This is irrelevant, anyway because Cerberus was successful, and the Reapers were afraid of them. Thats why they tried to destroy them. And the Reapers failed.

At least until they used their final asset, Shepard, to kill the Illusive Man right before he succeeded.

Meh.  I didn't play the Illusive Man over three video games.  I played Shepard.  So if you're saying TIM was secretly the hero of the series, meh.  I don't buy that any more than I buy the idea that the original trilogy of Star Wars movies was "really Darth Vader's story".  Meh.

[Aiyie]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

BackwardsMan4TW wrote...

Indoctrination doesn't automatically convert a person's mind 100%. The idea is that it has slowly been taking over the IM's mind. By ME3, they've basically gone bad and are doing a bunch of stuff the reapers want them to, but that doesn't mean they don't still have some of their own intentions and free will left. When Cerberus used what little free will they had left to find that controlling the reapers was possible, the reapers intervened to put a stop to their research.

You're suggesting that they are actively finding ways to destroy the Reapers, while under Reaper influence? Sounds implausible.

This is irrelevant, anyway because Cerberus was successful, and the Reapers were afraid of them. Thats why they tried to destroy them. And the Reapers failed.

At least until they used their final asset, Shepard, to kill the Illusive Man right before he succeeded.

you're argument is invalid if TIM is in fact indoctrinated.  and there are plenty of reasons to believe his is, not least of which is the author's confirmation of this.

if TIM and cerberus as a whole is indoctrinated, and im sorry, your personal admiration of their racist terrorist philosophy aside, they are...

then everything they do and come up with is influenced by the Reapers.  the Reaper's are not afraid of cerberus, they never are, not even with Sanctuary.

the puppet master does not fear his puppets rising up against him.