230 réponses à ce sujet

[Leozilla]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

They are no more equal to the other civilizations as a deadly plague is an equal. The plague may be dangerous, but it is not human, or equal to a human.

your Human extremeism is no different than ****ism, we are not the master race just like the blond haired, blued eyed Germans weren't. Regarding the Geth can you give ma any example as to why they should not be considered a sapient race, other than the lack of a soul, which can not be proven to exists?

Modifié par Leozilla, 27 mai 2012 - 07:57 .

[Sisterofshane]

thesnake777 wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

But she turned from her goals when she was indoctrinated. The Illusive Man stuck with his until the very end.

He goes from telling Henry Lawson to find a way to control REAPERS (which Lawson was very skeptical of even being possible), to believing that he CAN control the Reapers through the crucible.  And with what evidence? What changed?

The only thing that was different about him was that he implanted himself with Reaper Tech.  Everyone else that was implanted with Reaper Tech was indoctrinated.

He was indoctrinated to believe that the Crucible would give him control of the Reapers, and yet he never actually let the damn thing dock with the citadel so that it could work - in fact, he outright STOPPED it from being allowed to dock.

So I figure your taking the ending at face value. We dont know exactly what he did to himself, but at the end TIM had the ability to control Organic life, that is some serious evidence to support the fact they he might have had the ability to control the reapers themselves. 

We already knew from Sanctuary, however, that he had the ability to control organics, the documents tell us as much.  Henry Lawson (the one who DID the experiments and collected the data) is the one that told him it was possible.  He was also the one who told him, however, that his grandiose vision of applying this specific method to the Reapers was nigh impossible.  It went from being a theory, then Sanctuary was attacked and sabotaged, and suddenly TIM was trying to find Vendetta to find the Catalyst to complete the crucible, because he "knew" with certainty that he could control the Reapers.

While we don't know exactly when/with what (other then the tech was Reaper in origin) that he implanted himself with, it is heavily implied that he didn't do so until AFTER Lawson had concluded that Reaper signals could be overpowered by a different signal.  As Henry Lawson is still alive and present at Sanctuary, we can assume that the Reaper attack had just occured, and therefore it couldn't have been too long ago that TIM got the idea to stick Reaper Tech in his body.

There is a HUGE leap in logic from being capable of controlling a husk, to being capable of controlling the entire Reaper Force.  In order to KISS (keep it simple), the obvious answer is that it was Indoctrination that made TIM certain that control was not only possible, but that the was going to be in control as soon as the crucible was complete.

[thesnake777]

Aiyie wrote...


heh, im going to save you saying that first bit... people all over the forums are whining about "SPECULATION!!!"... but when you can actually go back in the Casey Hudson's twitter feed and find where he confirms that the illusive man is indoctrinated... you deny that there's any credibility.

Sanctuary is a win for the Reapers because it works in accordance with their goals.

the reapers sole purpose is to wipe out/harvest all advanced life in the galaxy.

that purpose is made much easier when your opponents are too busy fighting themselves to focus their efforts against you.

its win-win for the Reapers because, if cerberus defeats Shepard, the benefits for the Reaper's are pretty self-evident.  but if Shepard defeats cerberus, it means that Shepard wasted valuable time and resources against cerberus instead of the Reapers, and it eliminates yet another potential asset for the enemy.

as for the reverse engineered indoctrination, i don't buy it being a legitimate threat for the same reason i don't buy control as being a legit option that leads to the elimination of the reaper threat.

with TIM being indoctrinated, and hence under Reaper control, by extension that means the cerberus troops are ultimately under Reaper control.

I do not deny credibilty,I simply point out that Bioware has made stament about the plot in the past that has changed, so state ingame or inlore evidence to this effect. Ill ask again, at what point is Cerberus Indoctrinated?That seems to be the basis of your stance. 
The reapers do not have control over Cerberus troops, If they did they would have had Cerberus troops take out Santuary..that dident happen.
What threated the Reapers was not only the Reverse enginered indoctrination that Cerberus has been useing to make its army but also the fact that TIM found a way to abolish the link between Husks and the reapers. This is a major threat to them becuase he has identified their signal and can combat indoctrination itself. 

[thesnake777]

Sisterofshane wrote...


We already knew from Sanctuary, however, that he had the ability to control organics, the documents tell us as much.  Henry Lawson (the one who DID the experiments and collected the data) is the one that told him it was possible.  He was also the one who told him, however, that his grandiose vision of applying this specific method to the Reapers was nigh impossible.  It went from being a theory, then Sanctuary was attacked and sabotaged, and suddenly TIM was trying to find Vendetta to find the Catalyst to complete the crucible, because he "knew" with certainty that he could control the Reapers.

While we don't know exactly when/with what (other then the tech was Reaper in origin) that he implanted himself with, it is heavily implied that he didn't do so until AFTER Lawson had concluded that Reaper signals could be overpowered by a different signal.  As Henry Lawson is still alive and present at Sanctuary, we can assume that the Reaper attack had just occured, and therefore it couldn't have been too long ago that TIM got the idea to stick Reaper Tech in his body.

There is a HUGE leap in logic from being capable of controlling a husk, to being capable of controlling the entire Reaper Force.  In order to KISS (keep it simple), the obvious answer is that it was Indoctrination that made TIM certain that control was not only possible, but that the was going to be in control as soon as the crucible was complete.

We dont know how long ago that discovery was made, its quite possible they had further breakthoughs that made it possible, or he though he could use the cruciable to boost the signal (I hate the crucible so much). Most likly he had the implants done after the attack on Cerberus HQ (I am going on the fact he looked normal when shep spoke to him after he faced down Kai Leng). 

[Sisterofshane]

thesnake777 wrote...
I do not deny credibilty,I simply point out that Bioware has made stament about the plot in the past that has changed, so state ingame or inlore evidence to this effect. Ill ask again, at what point is Cerberus Indoctrinated?That seems to be the basis of your stance. 
The reapers do not have control over Cerberus troops, If they did they would have had Cerberus troops take out Santuary..that dident happen.
What threated the Reapers was not only the Reverse enginered indoctrination that Cerberus has been useing to make its army but also the fact that TIM found a way to abolish the link between Husks and the reapers. This is a major threat to them becuase he has identified their signal and can combat indoctrination itself. 

If I may venture a guess?  Cerberus does not start promoting "reaper" agendas until TIM himself is indoctrinated, which I believe is sometime between the attack on Sanctuary and the Fall of Thessia when he has Kai Leng steal the prothean VI.

This doesn't change the fact that throughout the entire game, Cerberus troops are shown to be implanted with Reaper Tech (they look like Husks for a reason).  TIM has been maintaining a precarious control over his troops with the method discovered by Henry Lawson.

After this I believe it becomes more of a Saren/Beazia type indoctrination between TIM and his troops.  TIM has been indoctrinated to be disillusioned with notions of controlling the Reapers, (essentially doing the Reapers job for them, helping them to move the citadel to earth, and also preventing the crucible from being docked for a time), and his troops are indoctrinated to follow TIM.

[dreman9999]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

But she turned from her goals when she was indoctrinated. The Illusive Man stuck with his until the very end.

Yet during the process of indoctrination she built a weapon meant to slow down the reapers.

[thesnake777]

Sisterofshane wrote...


If I may venture a guess?  Cerberus does not start promoting "reaper" agendas until TIM himself is indoctrinated, which I believe is sometime between the attack on Sanctuary and the Fall of Thessia when he has Kai Leng steal the prothean VI.

This doesn't change the fact that throughout the entire game, Cerberus troops are shown to be implanted with Reaper Tech (they look like Husks for a reason).  TIM has been maintaining a precarious control over his troops with the method discovered by Henry Lawson.

After this I believe it becomes more of a Saren/Beazia type indoctrination between TIM and his troops.  TIM has been indoctrinated to be disillusioned with notions of controlling the Reapers, (essentially doing the Reapers job for them, helping them to move the citadel to earth, and also preventing the crucible from being docked for a time), and his troops are indoctrinated to follow TIM.

That could be true. We dont really get much insight into what Cerberus is doing this time around. Not all Cerberus troops are mindless husks, it seems he leaves their identites intact (Kai leng). I just dont see how he promotes Reaper agendas, Your right he may be disilliounal at the fact he bealives at that point he can controll the reapers, but then again it may be possible. This may be the first time someone has been able to break the Reaper code. It freaked the Reapers out. He may have found out what the crubial was from the AI and found a way to send the signal..I mean it is a option for Shep from the damn Reaper kid. So it may not be so impossble, that would mean that he was indoctrinated or pushing the reapers agenda...

[Wabajakka]

I would be able to consider this possible if the game didn't pretty much tell you Cerberus is indoctrinated from the start...

[Dendio1]

@ all the posters looking for spiderman
Im getting tired of the spiderman and other related trolling breaking up the forums. It was funny the first few times but now its getting all to common. In before suspensions.

Modifié par Dendio1, 27 mai 2012 - 08:09 .

[Sisterofshane]

thesnake777 wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...


We already knew from Sanctuary, however, that he had the ability to control organics, the documents tell us as much.  Henry Lawson (the one who DID the experiments and collected the data) is the one that told him it was possible.  He was also the one who told him, however, that his grandiose vision of applying this specific method to the Reapers was nigh impossible.  It went from being a theory, then Sanctuary was attacked and sabotaged, and suddenly TIM was trying to find Vendetta to find the Catalyst to complete the crucible, because he "knew" with certainty that he could control the Reapers.

While we don't know exactly when/with what (other then the tech was Reaper in origin) that he implanted himself with, it is heavily implied that he didn't do so until AFTER Lawson had concluded that Reaper signals could be overpowered by a different signal.  As Henry Lawson is still alive and present at Sanctuary, we can assume that the Reaper attack had just occured, and therefore it couldn't have been too long ago that TIM got the idea to stick Reaper Tech in his body.

There is a HUGE leap in logic from being capable of controlling a husk, to being capable of controlling the entire Reaper Force.  In order to KISS (keep it simple), the obvious answer is that it was Indoctrination that made TIM certain that control was not only possible, but that the was going to be in control as soon as the crucible was complete.

We dont know how long ago that discovery was made, its quite possible they had further breakthoughs that made it possible, or he though he could use the cruciable to boost the signal (I hate the crucible so much). Most likly he had the implants done after the attack on Cerberus HQ (I am going on the fact he looked normal when shep spoke to him after he faced down Kai Leng). 

That's more of a problem with the writing, but it can be inferred from points in the game.  Remember, Miranda presumably does not go and attack Sanctuary until the third act.  She most likely shows up during/immediately after the Reaper attack on sanctuary, because her Father/sister are still alive amd have not yet left.  Kai Leng shows up sometime after Miranda and before Shepard to retrieve valuable data (and also deal with Miranda), and Shepard shows up before Henry Lawson has a chance to take Oriana and leave himself.

If we suppose that the reason the Reapers attacked Sanctuary was because of the discovery that Lawson made (the one we discovered while investigating the base), then there couldn't have been that long of a period of time between TIM discovers he can control husks/those implanted with Reaper tech, to the time he would have been able to implant himself.

Besides, the implantation couldn't have occured after priority:Cerberus because it is in this mission in which we are shown the video of TIM making the decision to become implanted, and he was already lone-gone (on the citadel headed to earth) by the time Shepard ever set foot on Cronos Station.

Also, if he believed that he could control the Reapers with the Crucible, why did he prevent Anderson and Shepard from opening the arms to the citadel?  Wouldn't he WANT the crucible to dock with the Catalyst?

EDIT: Anywho, it's one in the morning here.  Time to say g'night!

Modifié par Sisterofshane, 27 mai 2012 - 08:15 .

[Applepie_Svk]

RaenImrahl wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

This is irrelevant, anyway because Cerberus was successful, and the Reapers were afraid of them. Thats why they tried to destroy them. And the Reapers failed.

At least until they used their final asset, Shepard, to kill the Illusive Man right before he succeeded.

Meh.  I didn't play the Illusive Man over three video games.  I played Shepard.  So if you're saying TIM was secretly the hero of the series, meh.  I don't buy that any more than I buy the idea that the original trilogy of Star Wars movies was "really Darth Vader's story".  Meh.

 

Cerberus was succesful in two things:
1. They manage to use reapers chip on their own peoples which bring them great number of shocktroops.

Sanctuary was a trap which serve as research facility and shocktroops factory (or atleast their research lead to shocktroops, maybe as a first failed attempts they managed to )

2. They manage to override or bypass indoctrination signal which was working on Reaper forces
But Reapers destroyed facility - they thought that case is closed ... Who could knew that cereal killer made it in time.
With destroyed comm systems they know that information must be recover personaly or on short range transmiters
Sanctuary´s part of research facility was probably underground so there was only chance to recieve data on your own if transmiter´s signal was jammed.

3. TIM was obsessed with control Reapers since he have seen first of them
With instalation of that unknown reaper´s chip TIM fall completly to indoctrination, without that chips Cerberus could still try to gain a control over Reapers but it never happened because TIM want that fancy hardware same mistake as did Saren...

[RavenEyry]

It's common knowledge the Shepard is indoctrinated? Since when?

[legion999]

Yes they are. Kai Leng is indoctrinated as the Prothean VI hides because of an indoctrinated presence.

[Applepie_Svk]

RavenEyry wrote...

It's common knowledge the Shepard is indoctrinated? Since when?

IT theory dude, and it is more than possibile

[RavenEyry]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

It's common knowledge the Shepard is indoctrinated? Since when?

IT theory dude, and it is more than possibile

IT has never said Shep was indoctrinated when fighting implanted cerberus agents.

[legion999]

RavenEyry wrote...

It's common knowledge the Shepard is indoctrinated? Since when?

Since the indoctrination theory became fact apparently.

[estebanus]

legion999 wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

It's common knowledge the Shepard is indoctrinated? Since when?

Since the indoctrination theory became fact apparently.

Look, RavenEyry and I are both ITers, and it is certainly NOT common knowledge that Shepard is indoctrinated the whole time, nor does the IT ever claim that. The IT merely states that you yourself will choose in the end if you become indoctrinated, or if you break the indoctrination.

Also, the IT is NOT fact, it is a literary interpretation of the endings. It will first be fact if the EC confirms it.

Modifié par estebanus, 27 mai 2012 - 09:41 .

[Applepie_Svk]

estebanus wrote...

Also, the IT is NOT fact, it is a literary interpretation of the endings. It will first be fact if the EC confirms it.

But there is possibility that is true because Sheppard have encounter lot of Reaper devices.
(Dragon Teeths, husks, Sovereign interface, Sovereign parts, implants - cutting edge technology by cerberus , Collectors, Collecto´s ship, Indoctrination transmiter in mines Krogan DMZ, Object Rho, Reaper´s wreck,Collector´s Base, HUSKS once again, Reaper´s ships - well lol even Normandy was improved with Reaper´s parts... DID I MISS SOMETHING ?)

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 27 mai 2012 - 09:55 .

[legion999]

estebanus wrote...

legion999 wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

It's common knowledge the Shepard is indoctrinated? Since when?

Since the indoctrination theory became fact apparently.

Look, RavenEyry and I are both ITers, and it is certainly NOT common knowledge that Shepard is indoctrinated the whole time, nor does the IT ever claim that. The IT merely states that you yourself will choose in the end if you become indoctrinated, or if you break the indoctrination.

Also, the IT is NOT fact, it is a literary interpretation of the endings. It will first be fact if the EC confirms it.

Oh Raven was refering to the whole time? My apologies then.

[estebanus]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Also, the IT is NOT fact, it is a literary interpretation of the endings. It will first be fact if the EC confirms it.

But there is possibility that is true because Sheppard have encounter lot of Reaper devices.
(Dragon Teeths, husks, Sovereign interface, Sovereign parts, implants - cutting edge technology by cerberus , Collectors, Collecto´s ship, Indoctrination transmiter in mines Krogan DMZ, Object Rho, Reaper´s wreck,Collector´s Base, HUSKS once again, Reaper´s ships - well lol even Normandy was improved with Reaper´s parts... DID I MISS SOMETHING ?)

Of course there is a possibility that it's true. I daresay even a moderate-high possibility of this. I'm just saying that it is neither 100% true, nor 100% wrong at this point, and we won't know until the EC is out.
That's the main reason why I think that both sides insulting eachother is so damn futile...

[estebanus]

legion999 wrote...

estebanus wrote...

legion999 wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

It's common knowledge the Shepard is indoctrinated? Since when?

Since the indoctrination theory became fact apparently.

Look, RavenEyry and I are both ITers, and it is certainly NOT common knowledge that Shepard is indoctrinated the whole time, nor does the IT ever claim that. The IT merely states that you yourself will choose in the end if you become indoctrinated, or if you break the indoctrination.

Also, the IT is NOT fact, it is a literary interpretation of the endings. It will first be fact if the EC confirms it.

Oh Raven was refering to the whole time? My apologies then.

No problem.

[RavenEyry]

legion999 wrote...

Oh Raven was refering to the whole time? My apologies then.

S'allright. My comment stemmed from the OP asking why Shep would fight indoctrinated cerberus agents when it's 'common knowledge Shepard was indoctrinated'.

[LelianaHawke]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

If Cerberus was controlled by the Reapers then it would have been in their interests to prevent Cerberus from falling, which they do not do.

Additionally, the Illusive Man is not subservient to the Reapers in the same way that Saren was. He does everything in his power to find a way to defeat the Reapers, and he was successful, until Shepard came.

Not really.

The biggest thing Cerberus gave the Reapers was intel. It was from Cerberus that the Reapers learned of the Crucible, and moved the Citadel to Earth to protect it.

Without Cerberus sticking their nose in, the Alliance could have just blown up the Reapers without the fight at Earth, by docking the Crucible when it was safe.

Even if TIM wasn't indoctrinated, he sure helped the Reapers more than any other human.

Modifié par LelianaHawke, 27 mai 2012 - 11:22 .

[The Night Mammoth]

The Illusive Man was a Reaper indoctrinated slave, although we aren't sure exactly when they took control.

Cerberus as a whole was not, at least not indoctrinated by the Reapers.

It's nice to see another moron thread from Cameltoedingis. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 27 mai 2012 - 11:22 .

[Scam_poo]

I am not sure if you have read the Indoctrination Theory, but you should probably know first that Shepard isn't indoctrinated, he's only in the process of getting indoctrinated. If he was already ID, there would be no reason to have the ending of ME3.