230 réponses à ce sujet

[GreyLycanTrope]

1. Cerberus troops were indoctrinated to some degree using Reaper Tech, Henry Lawson and the Illusive Man might not have been at that point. The Illusive man didn't get his Reaper Implants till after Sanctuary as was show in videos you can review while attacking the Cerberus base.

2. "Since it has become common knowledge that Shepard is indoctrinated" I'm not convinced of this

3. Indoctrination can be subtle and change ones perspective not outright make them submit to the Reapers. See Paul Grayson, who tried to kill himself when he realized he had Reaper implants, they subtly made him think that his efforts where not going to work to stop him from trying. Kahlee Sanders not because The protheons who wanted to control the Reapers were confirmed to be indoctrinated.

4. Benning was never explained, it could still be Indoctrination. Indoctrination doesn't effect everyone the same way, see the difference between the captured STG agents and Rena Thenopsis in ME1

[Aiyie]

thesnake777 wrote...

Aiyie wrote...


heh, im going to save you saying that first bit... people all over the forums are whining about "SPECULATION!!!"... but when you can actually go back in the Casey Hudson's twitter feed and find where he confirms that the illusive man is indoctrinated... you deny that there's any credibility.

Sanctuary is a win for the Reapers because it works in accordance with their goals.

the reapers sole purpose is to wipe out/harvest all advanced life in the galaxy.

that purpose is made much easier when your opponents are too busy fighting themselves to focus their efforts against you.

its win-win for the Reapers because, if cerberus defeats Shepard, the benefits for the Reaper's are pretty self-evident.  but if Shepard defeats cerberus, it means that Shepard wasted valuable time and resources against cerberus instead of the Reapers, and it eliminates yet another potential asset for the enemy.

as for the reverse engineered indoctrination, i don't buy it being a legitimate threat for the same reason i don't buy control as being a legit option that leads to the elimination of the reaper threat.

with TIM being indoctrinated, and hence under Reaper control, by extension that means the cerberus troops are ultimately under Reaper control.

I do not deny credibilty,I simply point out that Bioware has made stament about the plot in the past that has changed, so state ingame or inlore evidence to this effect. Ill ask again, at what point is Cerberus Indoctrinated?That seems to be the basis of your stance. 
The reapers do not have control over Cerberus troops, If they did they would have had Cerberus troops take out Santuary..that dident happen.
What threated the Reapers was not only the Reverse enginered indoctrination that Cerberus has been useing to make its army but also the fact that TIM found a way to abolish the link between Husks and the reapers. This is a major threat to them becuase he has identified their signal and can combat indoctrination itself. 

already addressed the issue with Sanctuary in other posts.

but simply put, Sanctuary is a non-issue to the Reapers.  its certainly not a threat.  they control the illusive man, and by extension that means they control cerberus as a whole, which includes Santuary and the research being done there.

there is no way that the Reapers would have ever allowed cerberus to reverse engineer indoctrination techniques successfully enough for it to be a legitimate threat.  not unless the Reaper's were suicidal, which i highly doubt.

as for why the Reaper's used husks and whatnot to take out Sanctuary, instead of cerberus itself, i ask you, why not?

to a Reaper there is no difference between a husk and an indoctrinated person.  both are merely tools, the remnants of the enemy, to simply be used until no longer useful, then just as simply, discarded without any further thought.  neither one is more valuable than the other, and thus neither one is more "worthy" of performing particular missions than the other.

[EricHVela]

The Thessia VI fully explains the role of Cerberus with examples from the Prothean cycle.

[ReXspec]

Seriously?  You people are feeding the forum troll?

I figured Catamantaloedis would have become infamous for his hate threads about the Geth, Krogan and EDI (I'm probably missing others... I can't remember... oh yeah TALI.  The anti-Tali thread.  That was the icing on the proverbial cake).  And now we are arguing that Cerberus is not indoctrinated, even though it was confirmed several times through canon?

Catamantaloedis wrote...

If you have nothing to add to this discussion, then please take your lack of intelligence from this topic immediately.

If nothing intelligent can be said, nothing intelligent will be added.  F*cking deal with it.  My response to your bullsh!t?

[**image spam deleted**]


Because that is exactly what it is.  A story.  "An story" where the creator fantasized evidence for the sole purpose of getting a rise out of fans who actually want to have civil debates and conversations about a game they love without those said conversations degrading into mindless trolling.

TL;DR version:  It's time to do our civic duty (again) and derail a troll thread.

Modifié par RaenImrahl, 27 mai 2012 - 06:48 .

[M Hedonist]

Oh man... reading what can only laughingly be called OP's "reasoning" made me burst with laughter.
Let's do this ****, Spiderman.

[Mike 9987]

3. If Cerberus is indoctrinated, then explain how the Catalyst confirms that, yes, the Reapers can be controlled? Thus confirming Cerberus' suspicions?

Lol. The catalyst clearly says he was indoctrinted. "He could not control us, because we control him." 

[M Hedonist]

Mike 9987 wrote...

3. If Cerberus is indoctrinated, then explain how the Catalyst confirms that, yes, the Reapers can be controlled? Thus confirming Cerberus' suspicions?

Lol. The catalyst clearly says he was indoctrinted. "He could not control us, because we control him." 

[**image spam deleted**]


I suppose he's assuming IT to be true. Only problem is that he has no grasp of IT. Or he has his own version of IT which has nothing to do with the traditional understanding of IT. Or something.
Or, more likely, he's just a troll who didn't bother to give his thread any sense or coherence. He's known on this forum for making thread that go against certain species or characters, always with a completely insane reasoning that lacks all logic. That's why his threads always turn into Spiderman threads once people realize his reasoning makes no sense.

Modifié par RaenImrahl, 27 mai 2012 - 06:49 .

[dreman9999]

Greylycantrope wrote...


1. Cerberus troops were indoctrinated to some degree using Reaper Tech, Henry Lawson and the Illusive Man might not have been at that point. The Illusive man didn't get his Reaper Implants till after Sanctuary as was show in videos you can review while attacking the Cerberus base.

2. "Since it has become common knowledge that Shepard is indoctrinated" I'm not convinced of this

3. Indoctrination can be subtle and change ones perspective not outright make them submit to the Reapers. See Paul Grayson, who tried to kill himself when he realized he had Reaper implants, they subtly made him think that his efforts where not going to work to stop him from trying. Kahlee Sanders not because The protheons who wanted to control the Reapers were confirmed to be indoctrinated.

4. Benning was never explained, it could still be Indoctrination. Indoctrination doesn't effect everyone the same way, see the difference between the captured STG agents and Rena Thenopsis in ME1

Proto-reaper...

[GreyLycanTrope]

dreman9999 wrote...
Proto-reaper...

What about it?

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 27 mai 2012 - 01:53 .

[nitefyre410]

Spiderman De-railing troll threads ...

[**image spam removed**]

Modifié par RaenImrahl, 27 mai 2012 - 06:50 .

[Catamantaloedis]

ReggarBlane wrote...

The Thessia VI fully explains the role of Cerberus with examples from the Prothean cycle.

The VIs also say that Shepard is not indocinated, but he clearly is. We therefore cannot trust the VIs. 

[Catamantaloedis]

Mike 9987 wrote...

3. If Cerberus is indoctrinated, then explain how the Catalyst confirms that, yes, the Reapers can be controlled? Thus confirming Cerberus' suspicions?

Lol. The catalyst clearly says he was indoctrinted. "He could not control us, because we control him." 

Why would I trust anything the Catalyst says? It controlled the Reapers and could easily lie about such a thing to convince Shepard to pick a different choice besides Control, even though Control is clearly the best choice.

[Zardoc]

[image spam removed]

Modifié par RaenImrahl, 27 mai 2012 - 06:51 .

[The Night Mammoth]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

ReggarBlane wrote...

The Thessia VI fully explains the role of Cerberus with examples from the Prothean cycle.

The VIs also say that Shepard is not indocinated, but he clearly is. We therefore cannot trust the VIs. 

Surely, a VI with software to detect indoctrination saying Shepard isn't indoctrianted surely trumps the subjective 'evidence' anyone else can put forward. 

But in the mean-time Cameltoeidiot, SPIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIDERMAAAAAAN!

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 27 mai 2012 - 04:13 .

[Catamantaloedis]

There's too much evidence suggesting Shepard was indoctrinated all along. And for all we know the VIs can only detect those who have Reaper implants, not all indoctrinated subjects. If they could, then explain how indoctrinated agents were able to infiltrate the Protheans?

[The Night Mammoth]

[image spam removed]

Modifié par RaenImrahl, 27 mai 2012 - 06:51 .

[GreyLycanTrope]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

There's too much speculation suggesting Shepard was indoctrinated all along.

Fixed

[The Night Mammoth]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

There's too much evidence suggesting Shepard was indoctrinated all along.

All along? 

Since what specific point in time? 

And for all we know the VIs can only detect those who have Reaper implants, not all indoctrinated subjects. If they could, then explain how indoctrinated agents were able to infiltrate the Protheans?

Loldunno, they obviously detected indoctrination, hence why they tell you about indoctrinated servants breaking their line of battle. 

Maybe it was super-indoctrination, or the VI was too far awhey. 

[image spam removed]

Modifié par RaenImrahl, 27 mai 2012 - 06:52 .

[Sisterofshane]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

There's too much evidence suggesting TIM was indoctrinated all along. And for all we know the VIs can only detect those who have Reaper implants, not all indoctrinated subjects. If they could, then explain how indoctrinated agents were able to infiltrate the Protheans?

Fixed that for you.

[blooregard]

Vendetta: We were sabotaged by a splinter group from within. They advocated control of the Reapers and they were later found out to be indoctrinated"

[dreman9999]

Greylycantrope wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Proto-reaper...

What about it?

What about it? It was in the cerberus base since Arrival. Remeber, reaper tech can indoctrinate and the proto reaper could easily indoctrinate TIM.

[saracen16]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

I've discussed much about indoctrination tonight, and it's caused me to reach a very disturbing, and enlightening, conclusion: Cerberus is not indcotrinated! Shepard is! He is the true blight on the galaxy.

1. If Cerberus is indoctrinated, then why do the Reapers attack Sanctuary? It is only logical that they wouldn't want to weaken their own agents.

Indoctrination is a slow process, and the transformation from ally to servant can be subtle. It's obvious that Cerberus is indoctrinated, but they were not at the stage that Saren was.

2. Since it has become common knowledge that Shepard is indoctrinated, then why would he be fighting Cerberus? logic dictates that the indoctrinated would be working together, not killing each other.

There are different stages and different rates at which they are being indoctrinated. Where were you in ME1 when Saren said "My mind is my own, for now."

3. If Cerberus is indoctrinated, then explain how the Catalyst confirms that, yes, the Reapers can be controlled? Thus confirming Cerberus' suspicions?

That doesn't invalidate the Indoctrination Theory. The Catalyst and the Reapers were already controlling TIM, hence showing them that while the Reapers can be controlled, it shows that Cerberus can't.

4. If Cerberus is indoctrinated, then why do they have their own splinter groups like those on Benning? Those groups are actually indoctrinated, not Cerberus or the Illusive Man himself.

No. The Benning splinter showed that even TIM does not have full control over his own troops, and that the Reapers are ultimately the ones controlling them. TIM only set up a signal to indoctrinate them to the will of Cerberus, not the Reapers (although the Reapers are weeding their way to them).

5.*********MUCH  MORE EVIDENCE COMING**********

Oh, I'm dying to see more of this "evidence".

Thus the game becomes quite tragic. The Illusive Man was actually right all along, and it was Shepard who was indoctrinated. The Illusive Man is the true hero story, but is ultimately cut down before he can finally attain his final victory, which the indoctrinated bastard Shepard prevented him from attaining. He was able to make the hard choices which no one else was able to make, in keeping with the themes of the series, and was killed for it.

Although that is an interest way of saying it, reflect to what TIM said on Thessia: "The Reapers have it right."

Bioware, fascist they may be, have now established themselves as the greatest video game storytellers in history. One of the most memorable enemies in the Mass Effect series was the true heros all along.

It just comes to show that the game is not black and white, which is a plus, not a minus. Still, it doesn't show that Cerberus isn't indoctrinated. TIM may be a tragic villain, or a tragic anti-hero, but whatever he is, his actions are not necessarily in Shepard's or humanity's interests.

[GreyLycanTrope]

dreman9999 wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Proto-reaper...

What about it?

What about it? It was in the cerberus base since Arrival. Remeber, reaper tech can indoctrinate and the proto reaper could easily indoctrinate TIM.

I never said TIM wasn't indoctrinated just said at what specific time is left up to speculation. Yes it certainly could have happened thanks to the Proto-reaper, we don't know eactly when know when and to what extent though. The proto-reaper was in the base, but we don't know if TIM had any direct contact with it or if an unfinished Reaper was able to indoctrinate at all just yet, that system might not have been installed yet. A lot but not all of Reaper Tech indoctrinates, the citadel and the Mass Relays don't for example.

Come to think of it why doesn't the Citadel indoctrinate? Reapers would have a much easier time if that was the case, wouldn't have to take out the leadership with a surprise attack, just brainwash them.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 27 mai 2012 - 04:40 .

[dreman9999]

Greylycantrope wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Proto-reaper...

What about it?

What about it? It was in the cerberus base since Arrival. Remeber, reaper tech can indoctrinate and the proto reaper could easily indoctrinate TIM.

I never said TIM wasn't indoctrinated just said at what specific time is left up to speculation. Yes it certainly could have happened thanks to the Proto-reaper, we don't know eactly when know when and to what extent though. The proto-reaper was in the base, but we don't know if TIM had any direct contact with it or if an unfinished Reaper was able to indoctrinate at all just yet, that system might not have been installed yet. A lot but not all of Reaper Tech indoctrinates, the citadel and the Mass Relays don't for example.

Come to think of it why doesn't the Citadel indoctrinate? Reapers would have a much easier time if that was the case, wouldn't have to take out the leadership with a surprise attack, just brainwash them.

We already know the proto reaper can. It's parts were implanted and used to indoctrinate Ceberus's soldiers.  And the branch of time could be between ME2:Arrivel to the start of ME3. Remeber, the indoctrination test started during the time Shepard was jailed. And the proto reaper was placed in the main cerberus base because they had few placesto put it because of the events of ME:retribution...When the majority of cerberus was taken down.
And on the not of the citadel indoctrinating, the problem with thatis the it would repel people from going there. People who don't stat at the citadel wuld notice something wrong with the people who do live there. It would cause alienation.

[GreyLycanTrope]

dreman9999 wrote...

We already know the proto reaper can. It's parts were implanted and used to indoctrinate Ceberus's soldiers. And the branch of time could be between ME2:Arrivel to the start of ME3. Remeber, the indoctrination test started during the time Shepard was jailed. And the proto reaper was placed in the main cerberus base because they had few placesto put it because of the events of ME:retribution...When the majority of cerberus was taken down.
And on the not of the citadel indoctrinating, the problem with thatis the it would repel people from going there. People who don't stat at the citadel wuld notice something wrong with the people who do live there. It would cause alienation.

For the implants I recall them saying they used Reaper Tech from the base not necessarily the Proto Reaper, that entire base had plenty of Reaper Tech, could have found other scraps to use. Also I didn't mean to imply that it wasn't always housed at the central base, just that TIM might not have had direct contact with it during that time.

Fair point on the Citadel