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Balance is just as important in PvE as it is in PvP.


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#101
FlamboyantRoy

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Killahead wrote...

FlamboyantRoy wrote...

Killahead wrote...

FlamboyantRoy wrote...

Mad. 


I'm not mad, but I reported you as well. Lets try to act all grown-up and civilized here.


Why do people on this forum act so pretentious? You're not royalty, I'm not here to tell you what you want to hear. I'm not hear to hold your hand or kiss your ass. You don't like it? Wait until the mod gets here. Until then? Deal with it. 



Better pretentious than plebeian.


You're insinuating that I'm a vulgar or coarse person. That I'm lower class. That qualifies as offensive.


Reported. 

Modifié par FlamboyantRoy, 27 mai 2012 - 03:45 .


#102
Nereithr

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FlamboyantRoy wrote...

Killahead wrote...

FlamboyantRoy wrote...

Mad. 


I'm not mad, but I reported you as well. Lets try to act all grown-up and civilized here.


Why do people on this forum act so pretentious? You're not royalty, I'm not here to tell you what you want to hear. I'm not here to hold your hand or kiss your ass. You don't like it? Wait until the mod gets here. Until then? Deal with it. 


Ahem. Can you please understand one simple thing? Nobody likes you here. Nobody is on your side. You have just antagonised the entire ****ing multiplayer branch of ME3 forums by being an immature delinquent.

You can throw ****ty macros and "deal with it" copypasta all day long. In the end, you will get yourself nothing but a headache and a few virtual enemies.

Image IPB

This is a good macro.

Modifié par Nereithr, 27 mai 2012 - 03:45 .


#103
whateverman7

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Prodicus wrote...

On the other hand, they also buffed human soldier into a very versatile and effective class.


it already was before the buff....maybe that wasnt the popular opinion on this board, but it was...

i got a question: where does the buffing/balancing stop?....i ask because to me, if they make supposedly weak things more powerful, that causes 2 issues:

1. people will complain about said balance and think that some things should be more powerful then others...so bw would need to make those changes, which puts us right back where we started

2. people will complain that the game is too easy and bw needs to make it harder....which if they did, would also put us right back where we started....because people will complain some things are powerful enough to be effective

so again i ask: where does the balancing stop?

edit: saw your edit, i agree...now if we could only get others to do the same

Modifié par whateverman7, 27 mai 2012 - 03:50 .


#104
FlamboyantRoy

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Nereithr wrote...

FlamboyantRoy wrote...

Killahead wrote...

FlamboyantRoy wrote...

Mad. 


I'm not mad, but I reported you as well. Lets try to act all grown-up and civilized here.


Why do people on this forum act so pretentious? You're not royalty, I'm not here to tell you what you want to hear. I'm not here to hold your hand or kiss your ass. You don't like it? Wait until the mod gets here. Until then? Deal with it. 


Ahem. Can you please understand one simple thing? Nobody likes you here. Nobody is on your side. You have just antagonised the entire ****ing multiplayer branch of ME3 forums by being an immature delinquent.

You can throw ****ty macros and "deal with it" copypasta all day long. In the end, you will get yourself nothing but a headache and a few virtual enemies.

Image IPB



Wasn't here to make friends. I was here to contribute to the discussion until it was derailed by infuriated members of this so called "community". I don't need anyone on my side, I can stand on my own two feet unlike a lot of the people who have the audacity to question my maturity while they childishly say things like 'reported' instead of just doing it, because they're not adult enough to. See? I can play that card too. 

#105
Prodicus

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whateverman7 wrote...

i got a question: where does the buffing/balancing stop?....i ask because to me, if they make supposedly weak things more powerful, that causes 2 issues:

1. people will complain about said balance and think that some things should be more powerful then others...so bw would need to make those changes, which puts us right back where we started

2. people will complain that the game is too easy and bw needs to make it harder....which if they did, would also put us right back where we started....because people will complain some things are powerful enough to be effective

so again i ask: where does the balancing stop?


Exactly. I think the game is pretty well-balanced and fun as it is.

#106
Killahead

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I'd rather have classes and weapons at the level they are now than see everything be buffed to match the most potent weapons/ load-outs, that's for sure. That way you still have the option to make the game more challenging for yourself.

#107
Nereithr

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FlamboyantRoy wrote...

Wasn't here to make friends. I was here to contribute to the discussion until it was derailed by infuriated members of this so called "community". I don't need anyone on my side, I can stand on my own two feet unlike a lot of the people who have the audacity to question my maturity while they childishly say things like 'reported' instead of just doing it, because they're not adult enough to. See? I can play that card too. 


As far as i can see it was derailed by you.

Also, you just admitted to your wilingness to get into conflict. Also, sweet lord, i love that "See? I can play that card too!" 

If you wanted the discussion to be somewhat productive, you would have acted like a mature person right from the beginning. Instead, you flamed everyone and now you back up and "play" your "trump card". All in all, you wanted to derail this into a flamewar right from the beginning.

That said, i retract from this forum ****storm. I am done arguing with people who ooze hate from every pore

#108
xtorma

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FlamboyantRoy wrote...

Descy_ wrote...

FlamboyantRoy wrote...



Mad. 


Judging by your responses to this thread, it seems like you are indeed mad.


You're responding to me sweetheart. I pull the strings and you dance. I like this dynamic :happy:


Troll

#109
FlamboyantRoy

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Nereithr wrote...

FlamboyantRoy wrote...

Wasn't here to make friends. I was here to contribute to the discussion until it was derailed by infuriated members of this so called "community". I don't need anyone on my side, I can stand on my own two feet unlike a lot of the people who have the audacity to question my maturity while they childishly say things like 'reported' instead of just doing it, because they're not adult enough to. See? I can play that card too. 


As far as i can see it was derailed by you.

Also, you just admitted to your wilingness to get into conflict. Also, sweet lord, i love that "See? I can play that card too!" 

If you wanted the discussion to be somewhat productive, you would have acted like a mature person right from the beginning. Instead, you flamed everyone and now you back up and "play" your "trump card". All in all, you wanted to derail this into a flamewar right from the beginning.

That said, i retract from this forum ****storm. I am done arguing with people who ooze hate from every pore


How was it derailed by me? I simply stated my position on the matter and some of you just couldn't handle it. I discussed my take on the issue at hand and people didn't like it? Is that my problem? No. Just because we disagree doesn't give anyone the right to flame or attack my person. I didn't instigate this. You all did. Is it that hard to comprehend?

- Flamboyant roy posts in thread about not liking it when other players take credit for Roy's kills. 

Other posters flip out and immediately call me an immature child and a low class person. I won't start a fight but I'll be damned if I don't stand up for myself. 

I'm not the badguy here. You are. 

Stay mad. 

#110
RazRei

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I will accept balance when they fix the ****ing bugs.

#111
RaenImrahl

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Two users have been banned for fighting in this thread. Take it as a lesson: there is no need to get personal. Keep this thread on-topic, please.

#112
Hex Code

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Not too interested in your thread, but I'm all for making positive changes to the game that gives me more variety. However, your profile pic is awesome. I'm assuming it's a clip from a previous ME game. Either way I want one.

#113
astheoceansblue

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whateverman7 wrote...

Prodicus wrote...

On the other hand, they also buffed human soldier into a very versatile and effective class.


it already was before the buff....maybe that wasnt the popular opinion on this board, but it was...

i got a question: where does the buffing/balancing stop?....i ask because to me, if they make supposedly weak things more powerful, that causes 2 issues:

1. people will complain about said balance and think that some things should be more powerful then others...so bw would need to make those changes, which puts us right back where we started

2. people will complain that the game is too easy and bw needs to make it harder....which if they did, would also put us right back where we started....because people will complain some things are powerful enough to be effective

so again i ask: where does the balancing stop?

edit: saw your edit, i agree...now if we could only get others to do the same


A few things:

Soldier was usable before the buffs, but the class was completely out of line in terms of ouput in comparison to the higher tier classes. You could use it, but it just wasn't capable of the higher level output figures some of the other classes could hit.

Viable does not mean balanced, and even now, while the class is very good, to keep up with Infiltrators and adepts in terms of output you have to use equipment. The balance comes at an expense to the player, when it should be there by default.

Soldier is my favourite class, Turian specifically, I know the class and how to use it to its full potential and it packs utility and synergy in comparison to many classes, and is expensive to use at its full potential.

To respond to your points:

1. No one of sound mind or rational nature would call for classes to be more powerful than others if there were perfect balance. At that point it would be pure preference and player skill dictating things. Right now a few classes can be used by average players constantly to score 130k plus, with the average score on gold being around 80k (lower for classes such as the qe), and this shows a very clear imbalance.

2. People are saying the game is too easy now. They mostly say this because they run the easy class. I rarely see this complaint from people using teams of Turian Soldiers, Quarian Engineers, Human Infiltrators, etc...

We don't need these classes made into super powers, we need the super powees brought in line with them.

-

Regardless of what you say, certain classes are obviously too powerful as they are the only ones average players can use to score 130k and over. Certain classes are underpowered as even great players struggle to keep up in terms of contribution, or are simply too expensive with the constant equipment buffs they require.

The fact is this is shown all over the forums. All the data we see shows us which are the most powerful guns, and which guns are useless. We all know which classes are easy mode and which take skill to keep up with. And we're not talking about a vocal minority complaining, we're talking about all the data we see: bragging threads, build guides, speed clears, etc... all of this data shows us clearly the classes and weapons that stand out in terms of having too much power and utility.

You can try to argue the game is balanced if you like, but all evidence tells us otherwise.

Modifié par astheoceansblue, 27 mai 2012 - 06:27 .


#114
Prodicus

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Well, I don't think I'm saying that the game is balanced in the way you mean; in fact, I don't disagree really with any of the points you've made. I suppose I'm saying that the game is balanced *enough* (for me) in that I enjoy it and don't find the differences between classes so problematic.

That being said, I wouldn't mind permanent ammo mods for soldiers or something similar.... but to respond to your OP, I don't think it's as crucial as it would be in PvP.

Just my opinion, of course, but I kind of like the game as it is.

#115
Xaijin

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Wesus wrote...

All right personal insults while i'm trying to help you so you dont make yourself a complete idiot like ikilledkillab but if your going to throw personal insults in than you are be ow my league and you're probably not mature enough to have a mature / proper discussion.

That man is an idiot to the highest factor possible. Hè doesnt know how to play and thinks its good to be bragging about 108k in fbwgg, as well hè hates on infiltrators because he gets outscored by them.


No, most of your topics are just as dumb, so you really don't have room to talk. And going all SRS BSNS in one thread really isn't going to change that.



Back to topic. Before balance is even brought up it needs to be clarified. For one thing "balance" is not effectiveness. The GI is not remotely balanced in any way shape or form. And neither is any other inf for that matter. Because of the ways the power works in the game, inf have an inherent asymmetric advantage over every other class except vanguard, that of instant and continual damage mitigation. The GI has asymmetric powers and an asymmetric damage to health ratio which are literally inherent both the class and race under BW's current design.

The GI has very high effectiveness but very low team synergy. The cloak power by its nature draws aggro to the rest of the team and the high damage output and debuff of the GI make for high kill rate, but those kills are solo and only the debuff can be added to another player's efforts. The GI can achieve very high incidental synergy by reviving teammates while cloaked or capturing objectives "cleanly", but those are all player driven choices.

The other end of the spectrum are QE and KS. While the QE has high theoretical synergy, in practical application it's not that great because of disparities between her power and how they can be combined, especially when contrasted against say the Asari Adept or Justicar, both of whom have literal on demand synergy as well as excellent mechanical synergy uner the game's design.

Then there's the Krogan Sentinel which can't even synergize with his own powerset, much less anyone else's, resulting in a class with literally NO utility other than "be a target" or "stun or tie up small low health enemies as long as it's not gold".

Balance and effectiveness are two completely different things. Whilst they certainly influence each other, most here seem to be equating them to be the same thing which could not be further from the truth.

Modifié par Xaijin, 27 mai 2012 - 07:12 .


#116
o Ventus

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FlamboyantRoy wrote...

Lets be honest here, I'm sure there are plenty of players out there who feel the same way. An example, a salarian engineer gets an atlas down to 1 bar of armor by himself and then an asari swoops in with a warp and gets credit for it. That's not right. There isn't an "I" in team, but there certainly is a "me".


Never mind that the salarian is going to get a much higher kill value than the asari will.

#117
Prodicus

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Fair enough. I would say then, by your definition, that the classes are not balanced - your points re infiltrators are valid - but that the differences in effectiveness provide a welcome variety and opportunity for challenge.

#118
Blissey1

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Grimy Bunyip wrote...

good balance means more incentive to play more characters.
and that means more gameplay variety, more fun, yada yada.


This is the most condensed yet still accurate reason for balance I have seen to date. Well done sir.

#119
Kronner

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astheoceansblue wrote...


A few things:

...


So in other words, because you can't score X points with class Y, but you can do it with class Z, class Z needs to be nerfed.

You are just not seeing the big picture. You totally ignore players that can't handle Gold with any class. You throw away statements with no source. You try to enforce your biased vision on everyone's game. 

You talk about OP classes and weapons WHILE you actually link to Salarian Infiltrator guide and Hurricane-based builds.

All in all - Bravo. ROFLMAO.

#120
Guest_Roly Voly_*

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I just don't understand why every class should be equal as far as what numbers they put into the score at the end. Each has different roles to play, so they naturally are not going to be equal. If I'm a soldier, I'm gonna be throwing as much lead down field as I possibly can, if I'm a Justicar, I gotta be motherly and be putting bubbles over my kids to protect them, etc.

Perhaps it would be best if they just got rid of the medals and score at the end and just gave the experience and credits instead.

#121
rmccowen

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bhsup wrote...

I just don't understand why every class should be equal as far as what numbers they put into the score at the end. Each has different roles to play, so they naturally are not going to be equal. If I'm a soldier, I'm gonna be throwing as much lead down field as I possibly can, if I'm a Justicar, I gotta be motherly and be putting bubbles over my kids to protect them, etc.

Perhaps it would be best if they just got rid of the medals and score at the end and just gave the experience and credits instead.

I don't think anyone's claiming that every class should end every match with precisely 1/4 of the earned experience. Player skill will always cause variance on the scoreboard, as will (with the system for unlocking and upgrading weapons) player experience.

Balance isn't the same as equality. A level playing field doesn't mean equal outcomes, as the very basic games of chess and go pretty clearly prove. As the game grows more complex, it's also possible to have asymmetric starting choices (as ME does) that are nevertheless balanced against one another. The Salarian Engineer isn't clearly better or worse than the Geth Engineer, and that's how it should be. Ditto the Turian Soldier and the Human Soldier, or for that matter the Turian Sentinel and the Turian Soldier.

But the Krogan Sentinel, the Human Adept, the Quarian Engineer, and a handful of other classes are simply less effective and therefore less appealing than their counterparts. (Recent buffs have helped, but arguably haven't gone far enough.) That imbalance isn't terribly good for the game, because it means a less varied play experience for everyone.

#122
mpompeo27

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FlamboyantRoy wrote...

Descy_ wrote...

FlamboyantRoy wrote...

It does need to be balanced. Especially in regards to who gets credit for kills. It's very skewed. I do all the work and they want to get all the credit.


Okay, now that I just find silly.

Its a Co-Op game, everyone gets the same XP at the end, personal score doesnt matter, so why do you want credit for a kill? Bragging rights?

Yeah, try posting a thread on here with a pic of your super high score. See how it's received.


Ah yes "Co-op game", a style of gameplay that emphasizes teamwork rather than individual efforts. We have dismissed that claim. 

Lets be honest here, I'm sure there are plenty of players out there who feel the same way. An example, a salarian engineer gets an atlas down to 1 bar of armor by himself and then an asari swoops in with a warp and gets credit for it. That's not right. There isn't an "I" in team, but there certainly is a "me". 

What I'm trying to say is that the scores of the game should reflect who put the most work in. Not who was in the right place at the right time to steal credit from someone else. I'm all for being a "teamplayer" but when my teammates go to captilize on something that I worked on by myself. We have a problem. 


Cleary you've never gotten a 1000 point assist. The kill/assist points system seems very accurate to me really, in relfecting who generally contributed most to killing a single enemy.

#123
Blissey1

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you know, something else that bugs me about threads like this are how so many people seem to think balance = nerfing. Nerfing is only one half of the equation, the other half being buffs. But you never see anti-balance people talk about buffs...

#124
Feneckus

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astheoceansblue wrote...

even now, while the class is very good, to keep up with Infiltrators and adepts in terms of output you have to use equipment.


Not true. Look at that video : 
 

Geth Infiltrator kills the Atlas in 11 seconds.
Human Soldier kills it in 13 seconds.

Not that much of a difference.

The Human Soldier is basically a Geth Infiltrator without the wallhack. Although his grenades can't debuff and are limited in numbers. And his melee attacks are definitely not as good. And he doesn't run as fast. And he's not as accurate. He does have more shields though so I guess the game is perfectly balanced.

#125
Prodicus

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Blissey1 wrote...

you know, something else that bugs me about threads like this are how so many people seem to think balance = nerfing. Nerfing is only one half of the equation, the other half being buffs. But you never see anti-balance people talk about buffs...


In all fairness, I think a number of posts in this thread have mentioned buffs. Certainly, I would rather see buffs than nerfs...