161 réponses à ce sujet

[Mobius-Silent]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Not by much? You kidding, right? Also you have to add all the other things, not the prongs alone, connectors, other material etc

That is making the prongs the walls of the nubbin, the inside would be mostly hollow, the supports all seem to be indended to old up, the only big bits are the Control platform and the cables/destroy conduit

[MegumiAzusa]

Mobius-Silent wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Not by much? You kidding, right? Also you have to add all the other things, not the prongs alone, connectors, other material etc

That is making the prongs the walls of the nubbin, the inside would be mostly hollow, the supports all seem to be indended to old up, the only big bits are the Control platform and the cables/destroy conduit

It doesn't fit, so any argument is invalid.

[EpyonX3]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Mobius-Silent wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Not by much? You kidding, right? Also you have to add all the other things, not the prongs alone, connectors, other material etc

That is making the prongs the walls of the nubbin, the inside would be mostly hollow, the supports all seem to be indended to old up, the only big bits are the Control platform and the cables/destroy conduit

It doesn't fit, so any argument is invalid.

So what about the room not fitting with the size of the base of the presidium? Are we to believe that 1) in one shot the base of the presidium is flat and featureless, but when we're there it's full of distinct characteristics and 2) that that room we were in is the base of the presidium in its entirety since we don't see anything beyon the border until you get to the ring?

[moater boat]

I'm trying to make sense of all you wrote, and I'm not succeeding. What "prongs" are you talking about? What is the 4th picture? I don't remember that at all. And what is the deal with the circle in the ceiling? Why is that significant? I'm sure it all makes sense to you, but all I am getting is "Look at this picture. Now look at this picture. Remember what it looks like for later." Can you clarify what you are saying?

Modifié par moater boat, 28 mai 2012 - 01:23 .

[Chief Commander]

EpyonX3 wrote...

Chief Commander wrote...

Why should this be of importance? This still does not explain how he can survive all that crap exploding around him. Am I missing something?

If this is correct, it suggests that the crucible does more than we think. Not only does it provide the energy needed for shooting the out the space magic, it also provides the options. Knowing this, Bioware can very well say that the crucible can support an atmopshere and gravity all on its own.

That seems a bit over the top and unbelieveable. But hey at this point when we look at the ending, everything is. So why not.

[Cypher_CS]

I think the point of all this, Chief, is that the Crucible all on it's own is the WMD.
The Citadel, the Catalyst, is just there to carry the wave/signal/whatever throughout the Mass Relay Network to affect the whole galaxy in a single shot.

Connecting the Crucible to the Citadel is just like connecting... a Transmission Source to a Dish.

I always thought of it as if the Crucible is a Power Plug and where Shepard stands is the inside of a Power Outlet (Citadel) - the options themselves being the Power Plug's prongs.

[Mobius-Silent]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Mobius-Silent wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Not by much? You kidding, right? Also you have to add all the other things, not the prongs alone, connectors, other material etc

That is making the prongs the walls of the nubbin, the inside would be mostly hollow, the supports all seem to be indended to old up, the only big bits are the Control platform and the cables/destroy conduit

It doesn't fit, so any argument is invalid.

_Loads_ of things in ME3/2/1 (and any game) are off in scale, it's pretty common than the insides of buildings don't fit in the external shell of the building. For example "Huerta Memorial Hospital" on the Presidium hangs below the horizontal pylon on your left as you look out of the Presidium commons, you can see the commons from the Hospital. However if you look at the pylon from the commons, the Hospital isn't there at all. The main "ball" of the Crucible is off by about 20% compared to the base of the Citadel tower. The internal map of the Normandy SR2 doesn't fit inside the external Chassis. The question is: How close is it and does it help or hinder our understanding of the end sequence.

I was totally against the OP's initial post, the scale was off by a factor of 5 to 10 but the centre dais is made of _very_ thin sections that _do_ look as if they unfold, I initially assumed they unfolded from the Citadel when the vertical plates moved to reveal the central shaft (After all the "control" console is on rails and has wheels) but it's looking more like the intent was for that dais was folded up into our mystery nubbin, the scale is close enough to be intended regardless of the final artistic interpretation.

[Cypher_CS]

A CONVERT!

Score 1 for Pro Enders!!!

j/k

[EpyonX3]

Any new developments?

[Mobius-Silent]

Nothing from me yet I was playing with my new raspberry pi and rebuilding the raid array on my home media server so I didn't have time to fire up 3ds Max. However I've been pondering alternating the prongs, one up, one down, that would both make the case narrower and allow for a see of 4 upper prongs on the casing that would interface with the "power prongs" that stay on the crucible

Modifié par Mobius-Silent, 29 mai 2012 - 03:41 .

[The Angry One]

You do realise that if this is the case, this is in fact more damning against the scientists and engineers who built the thing who already look stupid enough.

Not only did they build the source for these space magics, they built the triggers too, and not a single one of them figured out what they do, not a single one thought to tell Hackett that there's at least one device that looks like it's used for something on this place so he could, you know, station some people there to activate it.

It still doesn't solve why it fits perfectly with the Citadel if we're supposed to believe most of it's designers never knew about it, or how it interfaces with the Catalyst and makes it far, far, far worse because now there's a magic elevator between the Citadel and the Crucible! Who designed that!?

[The Night Mammoth]

EpyonX3 wrote...


Remember that we didn't design the crucible. It was designed by species that came before. Those people could have gotten much further at unlocking the secrets of the Citadel then we did. The protheans discovered how to sabotage the keepers while the furthest we got was scanning them.

So it's not too impossible that the options were built into the crucible. Especially when the catalyst says, "the crucible changed me, creating new possibilities." This suggests that the options are foreign to the citadel.

The reverse, that the options were put on the citadel by the reapers is impossible though.

The Protheans discovered the Citadel was the final piece of the puzzle. 

Assuming the two structures pertaining to control and destroy are on the Citadel, either they tailor-made the Crucible for it, which is impossible, or the Citadel was tailor-made for the Crucible, which is impossible unless the Reapers did it all. 

[Deputy Secretary of Awesome]

So, in the "catalyst" room, we see the Earth spread out *above* us, right? We look up and we can see the Earth curving upwards all around us.

I'm just curious, where does that put the room in relation to the Crucible and the Citadel? Didn't the Crucible dock from below the Citadel? Not sure how that effects whether you're on the Crucible or the Citadel, but I'm curious to know whether it does.

[EpyonX3]

Deputy Secretary of Awesome wrote...

So, in the "catalyst" room, we see the Earth spread out *above* us, right? We look up and we can see the Earth curving upwards all around us.

I'm just curious, where does that put the room in relation to the Crucible and the Citadel? Didn't the Crucible dock from below the Citadel? Not sure how that effects whether you're on the Crucible or the Citadel, but I'm curious to know whether it does.

Remeber that the Citadel rotates as the arms open and the crucible's energy starts to flow through it.

[EpyonX3]

The Angry One wrote...

You do realise that if this is the case, this is in fact more damning against the scientists and engineers who built the thing who already look stupid enough.

Not only did they build the source for these space magics, they built the triggers too, and not a single one of them figured out what they do, not a single one thought to tell Hackett that there's at least one device that looks like it's used for something on this place so he could, you know, station some people there to activate it.

It still doesn't solve why it fits perfectly with the Citadel if we're supposed to believe most of it's designers never knew about it, or how it interfaces with the Catalyst and makes it far, far, far worse because now there's a magic elevator between the Citadel and the Crucible! Who designed that!?

It's easy to explain all of that with one statement. We didn't design the crucible. We built it blind. Now we don't know what every correspondence the scientists had with Hackett. But TIM seemed to know what the Crucible was capable of, even though he wasn't part of the project. It's possible Hackett knew there was an option for control, but refused to acknowledge it because he's on the destroy fence.

[The Angry One]

EpyonX3 wrote...

It's easy to explain all of that with one statement. We didn't design the crucible. We built it blind. Now we don't know what every correspondence the scientists had with Hackett. But TIM seemed to know what the Crucible was capable of, even though he wasn't part of the project. It's possible Hackett knew there was an option for control, but refused to acknowledge it because he's on the destroy fence.

Completely irrelevant. Were those scientists and engineers constructing the thing blindfolded?
Real scientists and engineers would examine every bit of that thing and ask themselves what the hell it does. Finding out what it does would be a crucial advantage, because you can plan accordingly.

Does it open a black hole and suck in the Reapers? Does it destroy them? Does it shut them down? Does it just render them helpless for an hour? You don't know! Find out!
Damn, this is like the plot of Halo only played completely straight.

The Hackett idea doesn't make sense. There is still an obvious device used for something on that platform. If they built that platform then there is no excuse for not stationing a team of people there.
Hackett assumed the Crucible would activate when it connected to the Citadel, if they built the control platform then either everybody who built it is a moron and didn't tell Hackett or anyone in charge, or Hackett's a moron. Pick one.

Modifié par The Angry One, 29 mai 2012 - 12:31 .

[EpyonX3]

The Angry One wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

It's easy to explain all of that with one statement. We didn't design the crucible. We built it blind. Now we don't know what every correspondence the scientists had with Hackett. But TIM seemed to know what the Crucible was capable of, even though he wasn't part of the project. It's possible Hackett knew there was an option for control, but refused to acknowledge it because he's on the destroy fence.

Completely irrelevant. Were those scientists and engineers constructing the thing blindfolded?
Real scientists and engineers would examine every bit of that thing and ask themselves what the hell it does. Finding out what it does would be a crucial advantage, because you can plan accordingly.

Does it open a black hole and suck in the Reapers? Does it destroy them? Does it shut them down? Does it just render them helpless for an hour? You don't know! Find out!
Damn, this is like the plot of Halo only played completely straight.

The Hackett idea doesn't make sense. There is still an obvious device used for something on that platform. If they built that platform then there is no excuse for not stationing a team of people there.
Hackett assumed the Crucible would activate when it connected to the Citadel, if they built the control platform then either everybody who built it is a moron and didn't tell Hackett or anyone in charge, or Hackett's a moron. Pick one.

The question arise from us not knowing every detail, at least the important ones, during the construction. Also, we are under a reaper attack and it's not the time to be noble know it all scientists. They knew enough about it to call it complex and sophisticated, yet simple in it's design. Meaning, they knew what went were but understanding why was a challange. I don't think they had enough time to study it and Hackett sure as hell didn't want to wait.

The problem is that in order to traansport it, the platform had to be collapsed, therefore stationing people would have altered the design and effects of doing so would become unknown.

The crucible probably should have activated, however, they didn't count on the catalyst. The catalyst could fire the crucible but it chose not to. Had it not been for shepard being on the Citadel, the crucible would have been a bust.

Building the control platform doesn't mean they knew what it did. It's easy for us to say know because we know what they do. For all they knew, the control platfom could have destroyed the reapers and the tube you shoot was just a power supply.

[Mobius-Silent]

The Angry One wrote...

It still doesn't solve why it fits perfectly with the Citadel if we're supposed to believe most of it's designers never knew about it, or how it interfaces with the Catalyst and makes it far, far, far worse because now there's a magic elevator between the Citadel and the Crucible! Who designed that!?

It fits with the Citadel because one of the previous races designed it to. The elevator simply goes from a control room on the hub of the Reaper organic-processing area to the base of the Citadel tower (The receiving point for the processing transport beam) It looks (To me) like the added part is simply the 8-pronged dais at the centre.

[Mobius-Silent]

The Angry One wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

It's easy to explain all of that with one statement. We didn't design the crucible. We built it blind. Now we don't know what every correspondence the scientists had with Hackett. But TIM seemed to know what the Crucible was capable of, even though he wasn't part of the project. It's possible Hackett knew there was an option for control, but refused to acknowledge it because he's on the destroy fence.

Completely irrelevant. Were those scientists and engineers constructing the thing blindfolded?
Real scientists and engineers would examine every bit of that thing and ask themselves what the hell it does. Finding out what it does would be a crucial advantage, because you can plan accordingly.

Does it open a black hole and suck in the Reapers? Does it destroy them? Does it shut them down? Does it just render them helpless for an hour? You don't know! Find out!
Damn, this is like the plot of Halo only played completely straight.

The Hackett idea doesn't make sense. There is still an obvious device used for something on that platform. If they built that platform then there is no excuse for not stationing a team of people there.
Hackett assumed the Crucible would activate when it connected to the Citadel, if they built the control platform then either everybody who built it is a moron and didn't tell Hackett or anyone in charge, or Hackett's a moron. Pick one.

So you're building this device. You know it produces a tremendous amount of energy and it can project that energy. At the focal point there is a section that unfolds with some power conduits, guides and some kind of console. This is all identified in the instructions as "Catalyst interface" You _know_ it folds out, you _know_ it dumps a ton of power into "The Catalyst" you know that the energy in there could _wreck_ a single Reaper but you have no idea how you would ever target a specific Reaper or for that matter how you would also target the rest of them (Maybe get them to line up:) ) But you build it anyway because you _know_ it can destroy at least some Reapers.

When we find out that it's going to attach to the Citadel the scientists are thinking "Oh that makes sense" and "I wish I'd spent more time breaking Council laws and studying the Citadel's systems" If someone reports up the chain to Hackett with "I think you might need someone on the Citadel to work this thing, there is a console in the folding section at the front that connects to something but we don't know what" what is hackett going to say? "Well if we don't have people on the Citadel already this is going to be a very short war because the Citadel will stay closed"

Seems resonable to me.

[Mobius-Silent]

EpyonX3 wrote...

 The catalyst could fire the crucible but it chose not to. 

Current evidence suggests that the Catalyst was _incapable_ of fireing the Crucible, in fact, just by docking the Crucible we had broken the Catalyst's control over the Reapers

[EpyonX3]

Mobius-Silent wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

 The catalyst could fire the crucible but it chose not to. 

Current evidence suggests that the Catalyst was _incapable_ of fireing the Crucible, in fact, just by docking the Crucible we had broken the Catalyst's control over the Reapers

The Catalyst, at least when you have low EMS, says "I can't make them happen and I won't." I guess that's were I got confused. He pretty much means that even if he could he wouldn't do it.

[EpyonX3]

@mobius

Also, that leaked script would have been much better in the game. it seems as though bioware had everything perfectly fine and then decided to take stuff out. Makes no sense that they already had a reason why Shepard was helped by the catalyst, a brief origin of the catalyst and what the catalyst is.

Instead we got a vague conversation about how bad organics are.

[Mobius-Silent]

NOTE: The nubbin here was made by me from the prongs of the interface dais, it was made for scale testing

Modifié par Mobius-Silent, 30 mai 2012 - 10:07 .

[CuseGirl]

The Angry One wrote...
Completely irrelevant. Were those scientists and engineers constructing the thing blindfolded?
Real scientists and engineers would examine every bit of that thing and ask themselves what the hell it does. Finding out what it does would be a crucial advantage, because you can plan accordingly.

Does it open a black hole and suck in the Reapers? Does it destroy them? Does it shut them down? Does it just render them helpless for an hour? You don't know! Find out!
Damn, this is like the plot of Halo only played completely straight.

The Hackett idea doesn't make sense. There is still an obvious device used for something on that platform. If they built that platform then there is no excuse for not stationing a team of people there.
Hackett assumed the Crucible would activate when it connected to the Citadel, if they built the control platform then either everybody who built it is a moron and didn't tell Hackett or anyone in charge, or Hackett's a moron. Pick one.

Trying to infuse logic into ANYTHING pertaining to the ending is just going to leave you upset. I gurantee it. The ending, it's cinematics, and it's graphical design just make no sense.

It's funny you say "why isn't a team stationed INSIDE the Crucible. It's not like something would come into the Crucible and kill the people inside, right? It was constructed by non Reaper, non-Cerberus forces. By the way Anderson gave the instructions before running to the Conduit, he was only talking about opening up the arms. None of the troops were given instructions on how to turn on the Crucible or fire it properly. Just another part of the ending that makes it CLEAR it was written by one or two people without another handful of people saying "This makes no sense".

[Mobius-Silent]

I disagree, I lothe the ending as much as anyone but all we're getting in the EC is clarification so I think there is utility in investigating intent.

Remember the control console has no actual controls. Its just a termination point for something. And that something may make no sense without knowing precisely where those cables connected.

Modifié par Mobius-Silent, 30 mai 2012 - 09:58 .