4520 réponses à ce sujet

[pistolols]

One of the reasons i really like control is because it's Shepard's opportunity to experience a transformation of character that the other 2 endings don't really offer.  Even after becoming a Spectre, even after dying and coming back as a cyborg, Shepard has still always been Commander Shepard.   That never really changed.  Unlike a lot of Shep's crew, most of whom all go through their own interesting metamorphosis.  Wrex from merc to clan leader, Liara from archeologist to Shadow Broker, etc.   By taking control of the reapers, shep is going from campy Commander Shepard to what is essentially the Apex Predator of the entire galaxy. 

Or rather, he is replacing what was the apex predator of the galaxy.  Whether or not Sheaprd  fulfills that role in the same or a similar manner remains to be seen which is also what makes control so attractive... it's potential for speculation.  What will Shepard do with the Reapers?  I consider it a real gift that the writers have given us.  Allowing our imagination to explore the possibilities and implications of Shepard practically becoming a god.  We see the Reapers leaving Earth, okay, so far so good.  But what then?  Where are they going?  Will they ever been seen again?  Will Shepard's position of power ever need to be challenged?  What thoughts does shep dwell on after thousands of years?

I just wish they had made it more clear how it is happening, that is my hope for "extended cut".  All of this confusion people are having over catalyst saying "You will die"... there shouldn't be any of that.  It should have been made extremely clear that shep's consciousness is living on as an immortal intelligence in control of the reapers.  Evidently the shot of the Citadel completely intact and closing back up was not enough for people to understand that the citadel is now Shepard's home, just as it was the Catalyst' home before him.

[Seival]

xsdob wrote...

Anyone interested in making this a group instead of a forum thread?

What is a group, and how it can be created?

...Also I think the thread will still be needed.

[palker]

 The reason i cannot chose control is right there in the thread title. By choosing control you would say that TIM was right all along and that you agree with him. The atrocities he did to get closer to his goal of controlling would be excused by your action. I will always prefer destroy ending. My reasons are:
Starchild is untrustworthy naughty little boy with a mass genocide as a hobby. I do not believe that Geth and EDI would be destroyed because AIs are software so even if all geth platforms are destroyed for some reason their servers would be left intact therefore most of th geth would stay alive. I am not so sure about EDI as it runs on reaper hardware but still since there was no epilogue my ending is what I choose it to be.
Plus my Shepard spent the game trying to convince TIM that he is indioctrinated and completely mad so by choosing control i would throw away all that i believed in because the entity that created the reapers told me that i could control them. Lol no just no.
Now when i think about the endings again i realize once again how stupid and contrived the whole thing is.

[Gorkan86]

Destroying the reapers means killing all those innocent peoples, that was harvested before, not just mindless husks and marauders.

[Shallyah]

A lot of people are obsessed with keeping the Mass Relays and the Citadel.

In the other hand, you are clearly told during the games that it's that technology what leads every civilization to extinction. Let's remember Sovereign's words.

"Your civilization is based upon the technology of the Mass Relay. Our technology. By using it, your civilization develops along the paths we desire. You exist because we allow it, and will end because we demand it."

For the Galaxy to truly be free of the Reaper chains forever, it needs to stop relying on Reaper tech at all and follow a natural process of evolution. What happened when the krogan were uplifted and given a technology they weren't ready to wield? That the balance was broken, and the entire Galaxy was at risk.

That is what the Mass Relays do to current civilizations. Like giving a shotgun to a monkey. Some (if not all) of the civilizations of Mass Effect, are not ready for intergalactic peace. Even in the apparent level of technological advance, they are too primitive, and humans or batarians are the prime example of it. The Citadel and the Relays need to be gone forever. Nothing stops the current civilizations from building another Galaxy capital hub for trade and intergalactic diplomacy and attempt to biuld Mass Relays in the normal pace of evolution. In fact it's mentioned in the games that the Asari might have begun building one of their own, because the Asari are by far the most capable race of the Galaxy when it comes to diplomacy and galactic peace. The asari are almost ready to not provoke war after war by joining the Galactic consensus.

There is still FTL travel that puts some systems just a few days/weeks away from others, so interacial interactions won't be completely gone. People just won't be teleporting automatically to wherever they want, but that's fine because they are not meant to. They did not earn that privilege, which in turn means that it's a technology that they are not ready to wield.

I believe some people have grown too attached to the concept of instant space travel to even notice that those are the chains that bound every galactic civilization to the ground and had it wiped out every 50,000 years. Civilization after civilization did not evolve naturally, instead they were tunneled towards a very concrete path that led to their final extinction. The Citadel symbolizes that, the extinction of thousands of races and civilizations that relied on it, just to see how the Citadel itself was a death trap, and they became the unsuspecting victims that were inevitably trapped in it.

Modifié par Shallyah, 28 mai 2012 - 09:45 .

[Seival]

Shallyah wrote...

A lot of people are obsessed with keeping the Mass Relays and the Citadel.

In the other hand, you are clearly told during the games that it's that technology what leads every civilization to extinction. Let's remember Sovereign's words.

"Your civilization is based upon the technology of the Mass Relay. Our technology. By using it, your civilization develops along the paths we desire. You exist because we allow it, and will end because we demand it."

For the Galaxy to truly be free of the Reaper chains forever, it needs to stop relying on Reaper tech at all and follow a natural process of evolution. What happened when the krogan were uplifted and given a technology they weren't ready to wield? That the balance was broken, and the entire Galaxy was at risk.

That is what the Mass Relays do to current civilizations. Like giving a shotgun to a monkey. Some (if not all) of the civilizations of Mass Effect, are not ready for intergalactic peace. Even in the apparent level of technological advance, they are too primitive, and humans or batarians are the prime example of it. The Citadel and the Relays need to be gone forever. Nothing stops the current civilizations from building another Galaxy capital hub for trade and intergalactic diplomacy and attempt to biuld Mass Relays in the normal pace of evolution. In fact it's mentioned in the games that the Asari might have begun building one of their own, because the Asari are by far the most capable race of the Galaxy when it comes to diplomacy and galactic peace. The asari are almost ready to not provoke war after war by joining the Galactic consensus.

There is still FTL travel that puts some galaxies just a few days/weeks away from others, so interacial interactions won't be completely gone. People just won't be teleporting automatically to wherever they want, but that's fine because they are not meant to. They did not earn that privilege, which in turn means that it's a technology that they are not ready to wield.

I believe some people have grown too attached to the concept of instant space travel to even notice that those are the chains that bound every galactic civilization to the ground and had it wiped out every 50,000 years. Civilization after civilization did not evolve naturally, instead was tunneled towards a very concrete path that led to their final extinction. The Citadel symbolizes that, the extinction of thousands of races and civilizations that relied on it, just to see how it was all a spider web, and they the unsuspecting fly that were inevitably trapped in it.

Actually you've just described one more reason I like Control and don't like Destroy...

Destroy means that Reapers are killed, but that doesn't mean they are gone. Remember ME2? "Even dead god has a dreams". In case of Destroy all worlds will be full of Reapers' dead bodies... Do you think they will just lay there? No, Civilizations will start to stady them and start to use the Reapers' tech in barbaric ways, without a full understanding. This is how everyone will become a "monkeys with grenades".

Destroy itself is a genocide. But Destroy concequences will lead to even more genocide and devastating wars.

Modifié par Seival, 28 mai 2012 - 09:48 .

[Shallyah]

Seival wrote...
Destroy means that Reapers are killed, but that doesn't mean they are gone. Remember ME2? "Even dead god has a dreams". In case of Destroy all worlds will be full of Reapers' dead bodies... Do you think they will just lay there? No, Civilizations will start to stady them and start to use the Reapers' tech in barbaric ways, without a full understanding. This is how everyone will become a "monkeys with grenades".

Destroy itself is a genocide. But Destroy concequences will lead to even more genocide and devastating wars.

You are speculating. I provided solid facts.


I'll play speculate game:

Control means that the Reapers only pretend they are leaving so everyone let their guard down, and just when the game ends they turn about and kill everyone while the godchild takes his real Harbinger shape and is laughing at Shepard for disintegrating himself at what obviously were disguised plasma nodes.


You know, I don't think I feel better by believing my own fantasy world and rather stick to the facts.

Modifié par Shallyah, 28 mai 2012 - 09:57 .

[Archontor]

Seival wrote...

Archontor wrote...

Seival wrote...

Archontor wrote...

Seival wrote...

Archontor wrote...

Seival wrote...

Archontor wrote...

How does Shep control them, he's did, he vaporised on considerable pain whilst surrounded by lightning. If it really was brain uploading they'd just strap some electrodes to their head and fall over dead.

More and more people are starting to realize that Shepard becomes a new Catalist in control ending

 

Didn't answer a thing, if you get vaporised you die. 

More importantly Shep becomes another genocidal ****. 

That's more than a defeat it's just depressing.

As a new Catalist, Shepard keeps her personality. You can see the proof of it in the ending itself - Reapers go away, remaining under full Shepard's control. I just can't call this "Shepard died" no matter Shepard lost her body. I can call it only "Shepard survived, and become heavily upgraded". Citadel is her new body. Beautiful, isn't it?

Except the Catalyst exactly states that you will loose everything you are. Moreover your just using headcannon as an answer. I could just as easily say that they received Shep's tactical skill and pulled back to regroup you know in that giant in penetrable fortress filled with people to make reapers out of.

My headcannon is bigger than yours.

Pull back? From what? A united fleet that can't do any real damage to them?

The entire United Fleet was just a distraction, nothing more.

By "loose everything" and "die" Catalist meant human body and everything that comes with it. If it was not the case, then Catalist could just say - "you will die" and add nothing to it.

Actually they would pull back for a number of reasons. There are enough ships to seriously dmage and or kill many many Reapers even sovreign type before being exterminated (espescially if they do those suicide nuje things like palaven) combined with Liara's chests of information there is a great potential for the next cycle to develop enough to roflstomp them. If they just sit back the fractured races (now devoid of mass relays) will squable for land and resources, those that don't die of starvation and illness or the effects of eezo contamination/ stray shots during the battle that hit earth will see new divisions and they'll either go to war seriously weakening their forces or just have to demilitarise to free up resources to feed the people stuck on earth. At that point you charge in and kill them all suffering minimal losses and pry the location of liara's databoxes. Shep would know.

And no lose everything you are means more than die. Death as you have pointed out can simply mean biological death, people have survived being 'dead' for a few hours and do so commonly. To lose everything you are sounds like a more metaphysical loss of your memories or opinions or personality, in essence it strips the organic facets from you and lets you become a cold collection of uninflected experiences and imoral logic that provides logistical control but dosen't take moral authority.

Hey your right he does become the catalyst.

In ME1 three different fleets combined couldn't do any damage to Nazara. They killed it finally ONLY because Shepard somehow turned off Nazara's shield (defeating Nazara's Avatar was clearly involved).

In ME3 only Destroyers are weak enough so they can be actually damaged. Reaper dreadnoughts (like the Harbinger or Nazara) are almost invulnerable to United Fleet attacks. You can see it in the battle for the Earth. Combined United fleet attack barely damaged only one Reaper Dreadnought. And the Dreadnoughts are most represented ships in the Reaper fleet.

United Fleet role was a distraction. It could not do anything else but distract the Reapers, so Shepard's work will become easier. Reapers had no reason to pull back.



And as I already said, in case of Shepard "loose everything" doesn't mean loose her personality. You can see the proof of it in the final cutscene - where the Reapers were actually indeed Pulled Back... Because Shepard ordered them to do so.

soveriegn took the citadel by surprise and had geth assistance against mostly frigates and cruisers with primative mass drivers and even then it was a miscomunication with the cinematic team that made him look that strong. This time they're going up against prepared ships
armed with Thanix cannons. And as I said people may well be desperate to just try a massive nuclear strike and take as many reapers as they can with them. The Reapers would probably win this cycle but they'd lose the next with diminished numbers and a lost technical high ground. One way or another the Reapers will lose if they don't reconsolidate their power and kill off this cycle first and hunt down any data caches. Sheppard would know that, and my assessment that all of shep that survives is memories and perhaps their logical schemas--enough to alter Reper procedure without being enough to constitute remaining as a person is just as valid as your...theory.

the catalyst implicitly says "You will die. You will control us, but you will lose everything you have." So you're saying that when it says shepard will die Shepard dosen't die and when ot says you will lose everything you have you don't lose everything you have.

You've either deluded yourself with positive thinking (thanks for making paragons look bad by the way) or you admit the catalyst is a lying warmonger in which case trusting it is the worst possible decision.

[Ageless Face]

Shallyah wrote...

A lot of people are obsessed with keeping the Mass Relays and the Citadel.

In the other hand, you are clearly told during the games that it's that technology what leads every civilization to extinction. Let's remember Sovereign's words.

"Your civilization is based upon the technology of the Mass Relay. Our technology. By using it, your civilization develops along the paths we desire. You exist because we allow it, and will end because we demand it."

For the Galaxy to truly be free of the Reaper chains forever, it needs to stop relying on Reaper tech at all and follow a natural process of evolution. What happened when the krogan were uplifted and given a technology they weren't ready to wield? That the balance was broken, and the entire Galaxy was at risk.

That is what the Mass Relays do to current civilizations. Like giving a shotgun to a monkey. Some (if not all) of the civilizations of Mass Effect, are not ready for intergalactic peace. Even in the apparent level of technological advance, they are too primitive, and humans or batarians are the prime example of it. The Citadel and the Relays need to be gone forever. Nothing stops the current civilizations from building another Galaxy capital hub for trade and intergalactic diplomacy and attempt to biuld Mass Relays in the normal pace of evolution. In fact it's mentioned in the games that the Asari might have begun building one of their own, because the Asari are by far the most capable race of the Galaxy when it comes to diplomacy and galactic peace. The asari are almost ready to not provoke war after war by joining the Galactic consensus.

There is still FTL travel that puts some systems just a few days/weeks away from others, so interacial interactions won't be completely gone. People just won't be teleporting automatically to wherever they want, but that's fine because they are not meant to. They did not earn that privilege, which in turn means that it's a technology that they are not ready to wield.

I believe some people have grown too attached to the concept of instant space travel to even notice that those are the chains that bound every galactic civilization to the ground and had it wiped out every 50,000 years. Civilization after civilization did not evolve naturally, instead was tunneled towards a very concrete path that led to their final extinction. The Citadel symbolizes that, the extinction of thousands of races and civilizations that relied on it, just to see how it was all a spider web, and they the unsuspecting fly that were inevitably trapped in it.

So you are saying that we should not use technology? Why does it matter if the technology was build by the reapers? The civilazation of the galaxy needs the mass relays, people need the citadel. Without them both, you will be setting back in time. Think of it like the stone age for humans. The galaxy, in that case, will be led into two option: Try to rebuild the mass relays and to continue to advance, or everything will turn into chaos. It's highly unlikley the speices will be happy with only living in their little homeworlds (if they will even get there).

Technology is not the problem, but how people use it. Most of the aliens are using it in good means. You didn't see a batarian going and exploding a mass relay in a human home system, even after Shepard did it, right?  Of course they will always be the exceptions. But should all the galaxy suffer from it? 

Modifié par HagarIshay, 28 mai 2012 - 10:01 .

[Seival]

Shallyah wrote...

Seival wrote...

Destroy itself is a genocide. But Destroy concequences will lead to even more genocide and devastating wars.

You are speculating. I provided solid facts.


I'll play speculate game:

Control means that the Reapers only pretend they are leaving so everyone let their guard down, and just when the game ends they turn about and kill everyone while the godchild takes his real Harbinger shape and is laughing at Shepard for disintegrating himself at what obviously were disguised plasma nodes.


You know, I don't think I feel better by believing my own fantasy world and rather stick to the facts.

The difference between your and mine speculations it that mine are logical

Control means that noone but Shepard will have full access to the Reaper tech. Noone will be able to experiment and create monsters. Reaper's dead bodies will not be a new curse to the Galactic Civilization, because Reapers are alive and were hidden far away in the dark space.

...And in case of Destroy, dead Reapers will corrupt most survived people. Reaper tech will be used for domination of some groups. It will be a new devastating war, and Galactic Civilization will fall forever. That's how Destroy ends the last Cycle.

[Shallyah]

HagarIshay wrote...

So you are saying that we should not use technology? Why does it matter if the technology was build by the reapers? The civilazation of the galaxy needs the mass relays, people need the citadel. Without them both, you will be setting back in time. Think of it like the stone age for humans. The galaxy, in that case, will be led into two option: Try to rebuild the mass relays and to continue to advance, or everything will turn into chaos. It's highly unlikley the speices will be happy with only living in their little homeworlds (if they will even get there).

Technology is not the problem, but how people use it. Most of the aliens are using it in good means. You didn't see a batarian going and exploding a mass relay in a human home system, even after Shepard did it, right?  Of course they will always be the exceptions. But should all the galaxy suffer from it? 

Should not use what you are not ready to use, it's a simple enough concept. That's where I disagree. Galactic civilization does not need the Mass Relays or the Citadel. It's just become reliant on them, which is precisely what the Reapers want them to do all along.

Every race should be able to use instant space-travel when it earned it, because in turn it means that they evolved to the point where they are ready to use it. Why do you think Yahg are still not capable of spaceflight? Because they are not ready. Unleashing them upon the galaxy at the moment would lead to a disaster, just like the uplifting of the krogan, and just like the First Contact War, because humans and turians should have never been confronting each other in such a primitive state.

I know it sounds like a contradiction to call races of the future primitive, but you can always be too primitive for something that is more advanced than you, regardless how far in the future you are.

[Shallyah]

 

Seival wrote...

Control means that noone but Shepard will have full access to the Reaper tech. Noone will be able to experiment and create monsters. Reaper's dead bodies will not be a new curse to the Galactic Civilization, because Reapers are alive and were hidden far away in the dark space.

...And in case of Destroy, dead Reapers will corrupt most survived people. Reaper tech will be used for domination of some groups. It will be a new devastating war, and Galactic Civilization will fall forever. That's how Destroy ends the last Cycle.

 

More speculation and fantastic dreams, without any facts or proof whatsoever. I'll keep playing.

Control means that Shepard just had a futile death, and he is the new Catalyst, as such he will resume the harvesting cycles as soon as he gains full awareness of his new role in the galaxy.

Destroy means the Reapers are gone, so no more harvesting can happen. A few indoctrianted cells will surface here and there, just like they would in any of the other endings (a lot of Reapers are killed in the battle for Earth regardless, there is dead Reapers and debris everywhere). They will be dealt with appropriately and the Galaxy will have a bright future.

The difference between your and mine speculations it that mine are logical

 

Nope, my speculation is more logical than yours, because I say so, just like you.

Modifié par Shallyah, 28 mai 2012 - 10:21 .

[Seival]

Archontor wrote...

Seival wrote...

Archontor wrote...

Seival wrote...

Archontor wrote...

Seival wrote...

Archontor wrote...

Seival wrote...

Archontor wrote...

How does Shep control them, he's did, he vaporised on considerable pain whilst surrounded by lightning. If it really was brain uploading they'd just strap some electrodes to their head and fall over dead.

More and more people are starting to realize that Shepard becomes a new Catalist in control ending

 

Didn't answer a thing, if you get vaporised you die. 

More importantly Shep becomes another genocidal ****. 

That's more than a defeat it's just depressing.

As a new Catalist, Shepard keeps her personality. You can see the proof of it in the ending itself - Reapers go away, remaining under full Shepard's control. I just can't call this "Shepard died" no matter Shepard lost her body. I can call it only "Shepard survived, and become heavily upgraded". Citadel is her new body. Beautiful, isn't it?

Except the Catalyst exactly states that you will loose everything you are. Moreover your just using headcannon as an answer. I could just as easily say that they received Shep's tactical skill and pulled back to regroup you know in that giant in penetrable fortress filled with people to make reapers out of.

My headcannon is bigger than yours.

Pull back? From what? A united fleet that can't do any real damage to them?

The entire United Fleet was just a distraction, nothing more.

By "loose everything" and "die" Catalist meant human body and everything that comes with it. If it was not the case, then Catalist could just say - "you will die" and add nothing to it.

Actually they would pull back for a number of reasons. There are enough ships to seriously dmage and or kill many many Reapers even sovreign type before being exterminated (espescially if they do those suicide nuje things like palaven) combined with Liara's chests of information there is a great potential for the next cycle to develop enough to roflstomp them. If they just sit back the fractured races (now devoid of mass relays) will squable for land and resources, those that don't die of starvation and illness or the effects of eezo contamination/ stray shots during the battle that hit earth will see new divisions and they'll either go to war seriously weakening their forces or just have to demilitarise to free up resources to feed the people stuck on earth. At that point you charge in and kill them all suffering minimal losses and pry the location of liara's databoxes. Shep would know.

And no lose everything you are means more than die. Death as you have pointed out can simply mean biological death, people have survived being 'dead' for a few hours and do so commonly. To lose everything you are sounds like a more metaphysical loss of your memories or opinions or personality, in essence it strips the organic facets from you and lets you become a cold collection of uninflected experiences and imoral logic that provides logistical control but dosen't take moral authority.

Hey your right he does become the catalyst.

In ME1 three different fleets combined couldn't do any damage to Nazara. They killed it finally ONLY because Shepard somehow turned off Nazara's shield (defeating Nazara's Avatar was clearly involved).

In ME3 only Destroyers are weak enough so they can be actually damaged. Reaper dreadnoughts (like the Harbinger or Nazara) are almost invulnerable to United Fleet attacks. You can see it in the battle for the Earth. Combined United fleet attack barely damaged only one Reaper Dreadnought. And the Dreadnoughts are most represented ships in the Reaper fleet.

United Fleet role was a distraction. It could not do anything else but distract the Reapers, so Shepard's work will become easier. Reapers had no reason to pull back.



And as I already said, in case of Shepard "loose everything" doesn't mean loose her personality. You can see the proof of it in the final cutscene - where the Reapers were actually indeed Pulled Back... Because Shepard ordered them to do so.

soveriegn took the citadel by surprise and had geth assistance against mostly frigates and cruisers with primative mass drivers and even then it was a miscomunication with the cinematic team that made him look that strong. This time they're going up against prepared ships
armed with Thanix cannons. And as I said people may well be desperate to just try a massive nuclear strike and take as many reapers as they can with them. The Reapers would probably win this cycle but they'd lose the next with diminished numbers and a lost technical high ground. One way or another the Reapers will lose if they don't reconsolidate their power and kill off this cycle first and hunt down any data caches. Sheppard would know that, and my assessment that all of shep that survives is memories and perhaps their logical schemas--enough to alter Reper procedure without being enough to constitute remaining as a person is just as valid as your...theory.

the catalyst implicitly says "You will die. You will control us, but you will lose everything you have." So you're saying that when it says shepard will die Shepard dosen't die and when ot says you will lose everything you have you don't lose everything you have.

You've either deluded yourself with positive thinking (thanks for making paragons look bad by the way) or you admit the catalyst is a lying warmonger in which case trusting it is the worst possible decision.

You should watch ME1 and ME3 endings more carefull. Nazara died only because Shepard turned off Nazara's shield. And all these Thanix cannons are not good enough against the Reapers.

BioWare used "Deus Ex Machina" scenario for reason - Reapers were intended to be unstoppable.

You just misunderstood the phrase "You will die. You will control us, but you will lose everything you have." . Catalist means that Shepard will no longer be a human being. If that was not the case, then Catalist could say just "you will die" and add nothing to it.

[Ageless Face]

Shallyah wrote...


Should not use what you are not ready to use, it's a simple enough concept. That's where I disagree. Galactic civilization does not need the Mass Relays or the Citadel. It's just become reliant on them, which is precisely what the Reapers want them to do all along.

Every race should be able to use instant space-travel when it earned it, because in turn it means that they evolved to the point where they are ready to use it. Why do you think Yahg are still not capable of spaceflight? Because they are not ready. Unleashing them upon the galaxy at the moment would lead to a disaster, just like the uplifting of the krogan, and just like the First Contact War, because humans and turians should have never been confronting each other in such a primitive state.

I know it sounds like a contradiction to call races of the future primitive, but you can always be too primitive for something that is more advanced than you, regardless how far in the future you are.

But the galactic civilization have already proved themselves. If they wouldn't, they would not have spaceships, not know how to use the mass realys. Should Shepard turn them back  into the same place they were when evolution began, just to be in the same place again? Or better yet, they will NEVER be able to get back there again? 

What did the asari do to make them not to earn their place? What did the turian did? Or elchor? Volus, hanars, Why did they deserve it? And when the yahg will be ready to join all the other civilazations, should they not join? The krogan, when you just cured them from the genophage, Would you now take hope from them to start colonizing new worlds and get the hell out of tuchanka?

Technology is needed. Saying someone should not get what he did not earn is all fine and well, But that is unpraticle. When you go to war as a soldier, and you see ammunition lying on the ground, would you not take it becasue you did not earn it? When you are going outside, do you go on the grass because that is how it's suppose to be, or on the sidewalk?

Modifié par HagarIshay, 28 mai 2012 - 10:34 .

[Seival]

Gorkan86 wrote...

Destroying the reapers means killing all those innocent peoples, that was harvested before, not just mindless husks and marauders.

Yes, it's one more reason to like Control Ending. Control means stopping the Reapers without killing anyone.

[Archontor]

Seival wrote...

Archontor wrote...

Seival wrote...

Archontor wrote...

Seival wrote...

Archontor wrote...

Seival wrote...

Archontor wrote...

Seival wrote...

Archontor wrote...

How does Shep control them, he's did, he vaporised on considerable pain whilst surrounded by lightning. If it really was brain uploading they'd just strap some electrodes to their head and fall over dead.

More and more people are starting to realize that Shepard becomes a new Catalist in control ending

 

Didn't answer a thing, if you get vaporised you die. 

More importantly Shep becomes another genocidal ****. 

That's more than a defeat it's just depressing.

As a new Catalist, Shepard keeps her personality. You can see the proof of it in the ending itself - Reapers go away, remaining under full Shepard's control. I just can't call this "Shepard died" no matter Shepard lost her body. I can call it only "Shepard survived, and become heavily upgraded". Citadel is her new body. Beautiful, isn't it?

Except the Catalyst exactly states that you will loose everything you are. Moreover your just using headcannon as an answer. I could just as easily say that they received Shep's tactical skill and pulled back to regroup you know in that giant in penetrable fortress filled with people to make reapers out of.

My headcannon is bigger than yours.

Pull back? From what? A united fleet that can't do any real damage to them?

The entire United Fleet was just a distraction, nothing more.

By "loose everything" and "die" Catalist meant human body and everything that comes with it. If it was not the case, then Catalist could just say - "you will die" and add nothing to it.

Actually they would pull back for a number of reasons. There are enough ships to seriously dmage and or kill many many Reapers even sovreign type before being exterminated (espescially if they do those suicide nuje things like palaven) combined with Liara's chests of information there is a great potential for the next cycle to develop enough to roflstomp them. If they just sit back the fractured races (now devoid of mass relays) will squable for land and resources, those that don't die of starvation and illness or the effects of eezo contamination/ stray shots during the battle that hit earth will see new divisions and they'll either go to war seriously weakening their forces or just have to demilitarise to free up resources to feed the people stuck on earth. At that point you charge in and kill them all suffering minimal losses and pry the location of liara's databoxes. Shep would know.

And no lose everything you are means more than die. Death as you have pointed out can simply mean biological death, people have survived being 'dead' for a few hours and do so commonly. To lose everything you are sounds like a more metaphysical loss of your memories or opinions or personality, in essence it strips the organic facets from you and lets you become a cold collection of uninflected experiences and imoral logic that provides logistical control but dosen't take moral authority.

Hey your right he does become the catalyst.

In ME1 three different fleets combined couldn't do any damage to Nazara. They killed it finally ONLY because Shepard somehow turned off Nazara's shield (defeating Nazara's Avatar was clearly involved).

In ME3 only Destroyers are weak enough so they can be actually damaged. Reaper dreadnoughts (like the Harbinger or Nazara) are almost invulnerable to United Fleet attacks. You can see it in the battle for the Earth. Combined United fleet attack barely damaged only one Reaper Dreadnought. And the Dreadnoughts are most represented ships in the Reaper fleet.

United Fleet role was a distraction. It could not do anything else but distract the Reapers, so Shepard's work will become easier. Reapers had no reason to pull back.



And as I already said, in case of Shepard "loose everything" doesn't mean loose her personality. You can see the proof of it in the final cutscene - where the Reapers were actually indeed Pulled Back... Because Shepard ordered them to do so.

soveriegn took the citadel by surprise and had geth assistance against mostly frigates and cruisers with primative mass drivers and even then it was a miscomunication with the cinematic team that made him look that strong. This time they're going up against prepared ships
armed with Thanix cannons. And as I said people may well be desperate to just try a massive nuclear strike and take as many reapers as they can with them. The Reapers would probably win this cycle but they'd lose the next with diminished numbers and a lost technical high ground. One way or another the Reapers will lose if they don't reconsolidate their power and kill off this cycle first and hunt down any data caches. Sheppard would know that, and my assessment that all of shep that survives is memories and perhaps their logical schemas--enough to alter Reper procedure without being enough to constitute remaining as a person is just as valid as your...theory.

the catalyst implicitly says "You will die. You will control us, but you will lose everything you have." So you're saying that when it says shepard will die Shepard dosen't die and when ot says you will lose everything you have you don't lose everything you have.

You've either deluded yourself with positive thinking (thanks for making paragons look bad by the way) or you admit the catalyst is a lying warmonger in which case trusting it is the worst possible decision.

You should watch ME1 and ME3 endings more carefull. Nazara died only because Shepard turned off Nazara's shield. And all these Thanix cannons are not good enough against the Reapers.

BioWare used "Deus Ex Machina" scenario for reason - Reapers were intended to be unstoppable.

You just misunderstood the phrase "You will die. You will control us, but you will lose everything you have." . Catalist means that Shepard will no longer be a human being. If that was not the case, then Catalist could say just "you will die" and add nothing to it.

I have watched them, there were mostly frigates beside the destiny ascension (which was bullrushed so it's long range oriented tactics were of little use) up against an admittedly small portion of the geth fleet--the largest known fleet in the galaxy and one of the most advanced. In comparisson we now have somewhere up to around twenty thousand ships, all armed with thanix weapons which can largely bypass sheilds and all of them are expecting reapers and have planned accordingly. We have evidence of the Turians taking down numerous dreadnoughts alone and outnumbered and codex entries to confirm it.

And no you have misuunderstood to "You will die" and "you will loose everything you have" to mean "you will survive" and "you won't loose much at all." Also known of as delusion. frankly adding "you will lose everything you have" suggests that it is more than a physical death for the endless optimists like you.

[Shallyah]

HagarIshay wrote...

Shallyah wrote...


Should not use what you are not ready to use, it's a simple enough concept. That's where I disagree. Galactic civilization does not need the Mass Relays or the Citadel. It's just become reliant on them, which is precisely what the Reapers want them to do all along.

Every race should be able to use instant space-travel when it earned it, because in turn it means that they evolved to the point where they are ready to use it. Why do you think Yahg are still not capable of spaceflight? Because they are not ready. Unleashing them upon the galaxy at the moment would lead to a disaster, just like the uplifting of the krogan, and just like the First Contact War, because humans and turians should have never been confronting each other in such a primitive state.

I know it sounds like a contradiction to call races of the future primitive, but you can always be too primitive for something that is more advanced than you, regardless how far in the future you are.

But the galactic civilization have already proved themselves. If they wouldn't, they would not have spaceships, not know how to use the mass realys. Should Shepard turn them back  into the same place they were when evolution began, just to be in the same place again? Or better yet, they will NEVER be able to get back there again? 

What did the asari do to make them not to earn their place? What did the turian did? Or elchor? Volus, hanars, Why did they deserve it? And when the yahg will be ready to join all the other civilazations, should they not join? The krogan, when you just cured them from the genophage, Would you now take hope from them to start colonizing new worlds and get the hell out of tuchanka?

Technology is needed. Saying someone should not get what he did not earn is all fine and well, But that is unpraticle. When you go to war as a soldier, and you see ammunition lying on the ground, would you not take it becasue you did not earn it? When you are going outside, do you go on the grass because that is how it's suppose to be, or on the sidewalk?

Everyone should simply stand as far as they managed to accomplish by themselves. Evolution follows its pace, and if altered, it leads to disaster. I'm not sure how I can explain it further, since this is becoming now a circular argument.

Don't need to reset everyone to sticks and stones, just at whichever level of technology they have reached by themselves. Doing otherwise leads to conflict, simply because as I said, the race is too primitive to face certain things. A monkey is too primitive to know how to use a shotgun sensibly, the Krogan were too primitive for nuclear weapons when they were given them, and the humans and turians were too primitive to encounter each other in the Galaxy when it happened. All of it was product of the alteration of evolution, and can lead to the destruction of the entire Galaxy.  

For all that you say Shepard has proven, it has been vastly disproven by TIM and Cerberus. That one individual of a race is more advanced than the rest does not make the race any less unfit as a whole. And what do TIM and Cerberus represent? Precisely evolving beyond the pace of evolution. Taking what they did not earn. Using technology they are not ready for. And that turns them into the most conflicting and dangerous faction of the Galaxy.

Let's look at the most advanced race of the galaxy, the Asari. They are the most notable galactic diplomats and peacekeepers. That is why the Asari are the only race that is rumoured to be capable of building a Mass Relay by themselves, because evolution demands it. They are nearly ready for it, and it would not lead to a galactic disaster like every other race who used Mass Relays before they were capable of creating the technology by themselves.

Modifié par Shallyah, 28 mai 2012 - 11:07 .

[Tiberis]

Shallyah wrote...
Should not use what you are not ready to use, it's a simple enough concept. That's where I disagree. Galactic civilization does not need the Mass Relays or the Citadel. It's just become reliant on them, which is precisely what the Reapers want them to do all along.

Every race should be able to use instant space-travel when it earned it, because in turn it means that they evolved to the point where they are ready to use it. Why do you think Yahg are still not capable of spaceflight? Because they are not ready. Unleashing them upon the galaxy at the moment would lead to a disaster, just like the uplifting of the krogan, and just like the First Contact War, because humans and turians should have never been confronting each other in such a primitive state.

I know it sounds like a contradiction to call races of the future primitive, but you can always be too primitive for something that is more advanced than you, regardless how far in the future you are.

This is very interesting; never looked at it this way. This sort of explains what the starbrat meant by "chaos". But if their technology is the reason for this chaos and they are the ones quelling said chaos then that means every cycle is intentional and the whole "machines will destroy organics" thing no longer holds truth because the reapers themselves are doing exactly what they are supposedly defending. That means destroying them is the best outcome because it permanently ensures the cycles never repeat again. Control could work, but I was saying before that there is too much vagueness to determine what really goes on after Shepard melts away into cybernetic goo.

I would buy into the whole "not ready" thing if most of ME3 didn't happen. Everything Shepard does is to unite the galaxy and bring final peace. He solves centuries-old conflicts and gets everyone to come together and defend the galaxy. There may be chaos after everything ends, but I think the whole ordeal will seriously leave an imprint on every galactic civilization and forever change the way things work socially and politically. In a galaxy where Shep controls the reapers I cannot say with the same certainty that the galaxy will have a bright future. The aforementioned affect on galactic society would be completely altered if the reapers still exist regardless if they are now in Shep's hands.

[Vox Draco]

Gorkan86 wrote...

Destroying the reapers means killing all those innocent peoples, that was harvested before, not just mindless husks and marauders.

What do you mean with that? Do you speak of the people on the citadel?

Or..do you really believe that...the Reaper-Cores are still...people?

If so, than you...have seen how Reapers are made in ME2, did you? They are turned into paste, in a very agonizing way. The genocide has already happened millenia ago, by the Reapers. All theat remains is what the Reapers think defines organics: DNA, Genetic Material. All the races once have been, what they have accomplished, created, felt, is long gone. Evidence? If it would still play a role inside the Reapers, why would they possibly commit such atrocities? because either nothing remains of them, or the remains are still somehow "alive", but then also clearly indoctrinated, or they have lost any feeling of compassion, guilt etc along with their bodies.

All this makes me feel more than just a little uneasy about what might happen if Shepard gives up her body (which is just as important to define you as a human as your mind is) and merges with the Reapers...It is a disgusting thought, really..at least for me

[Ageless Face]

Shallyah wrote...


Everyone should simply stand as far as they managed to accomplish by themselves. Evolution follows its pace, and if altered, it leads to disaster. I'm not sure how I can explain it further, since this is becoming now a circular argument.

Don't need to reset everyone to sticks and stones, just at whichever level of technology they have reached by themselves. Doing otherwise leads to conflict, simply because as I said, the race is too primitive to face certain things. A monkey is too primitive to know how to use a shotgun sensibly, the Krogan were too primitive for nuclear weapons when they were given them, and the humans and turians were too primitive to encounter each other in the Galaxy when it happened. All of it was product of the alteration of evolution, and can lead to the destruction of the entire Galaxy.  For all that you say Shepard has proven, it has been vastly disproven by TIM and Cerberus. That one individual of a race is more advanced than the rest does not make the race any less unfit as a whole.

Let's look at the most advanced race of the galaxy, the Asari. They are the most notable galactic diplomats and peacekeepers. That is why the Asari are the only race that is rumoured to be capable of building a Mass Relay by themselves, because evolution demands it. They are nearly ready for it, and it would not lead to a galactic disaster like every other race who used Mass Relays before they were capable of creating the technology by themselves.

Conflicts will always be. Even in Javik's time, when technology and intellect were much higher, they had conflicts. Even this days there are wars. When technology didn't even exist people killed each other. This has nothing to do with technology. You can fight with a gun as well as a rock.

Technology can only bring people into better understading. Think about the stone age, Humans had a brain equal to a monkey. Their only goals were of survival. And think about the times now. Our intelligence has grown much more.  we have computers, airplanes, machines, phones. All are technology. Thanks to Technology we have democracy in the world, we know what is going on in other countries. Now think of it all just... destroyed. We would have chaos, simple as that. We would have a great brain, and nothing to use it for. Even our cultures can be destroyed.

That is what will happen to all the galaxy without the mass relays, the citadel, even without synthetics. either that, or the galaxy will commit every scrape of recource to recreate the mass relays. They will not create new technology themselves. 

Modifié par HagarIshay, 28 mai 2012 - 11:30 .

[incinerator950]

Sisterofshane wrote...

MerchantGOL wrote...

Tiberis wrote...

MerchantGOL wrote...

Tiberis wrote...

Control ending was probably the saddest IMO. Here is Shep fighting to eradicate the Reapers but, oh no, starbrat comes along and changes his mind. No evidence until the end that control would be "good". I might like control (synthesis too) is there was a bit more explanation prior to it and maybe some clues that control might be a good thing.

The reapers leaving isn't enough of a indicator?

No.

The reapers have only proven to be a corrupting and evil force in all three games. Simply because they leave Earth I'm supposed to believe everything is all right? There isn't enough information to say controlling them does any good. In fact, we don't know if Shep has become the new Catalyst or he became part of it (perhaps the Catalyst is a gestalt intellegence of all the races that have since been "absorbed" and Shep just adds to it?). Perhaps you will be proven right in the EC and we'll get to see reaper tech used for the betterment of the galaxy; I do not know.

if it didn't work why would the reapers leave?

But are you really leaving the Galaxy in a better state?
Can you guarantee that the Reapers will never return?

I mean, what will people's reaction be when they figure out that the Reapers are still out there?  I can pretty much guarantee you that they will still be considered a threat by most.

Datamine paints the Epilogue taking place thousands of years into the future.  Regardless if this was drug related to the writer or the person who datamined it, the ending box that told you Shepard became a Legend and saved everyone and to keep playing the game should be a solid indicator you won.  Regardless of your choice.

[Shallyah]

HagarIshay wrote...


Conflicts will always be. Even in Javik's time, when technology and intellect were much higher, they had conflicts. Even this days there are wars. When technology didn't even exist people killed each other. This has nothing to do with technology. You can fight with a gun as well as a rock.

Technology can only bring people into better understading. Think about the stone age, Humans had a brain equal to a monkey. Their only goals were of survival. And think about the times now. Our intelligence has grown much more.  we have computers, airplanes, machines, phones. All are technology. Thanks to Technology we have democracy in the world, we know what is going on in other countries. Now think of it all just... destroyed. We would have chaos, simple as that. We would have a great brain, and nothing to use it for. Even our cultures can be destroyed.

That is what will happen to all the galaxy without the mass relays, the citadel, even without synthetics. either that, or the galaxy will commit every scrape of recource to recreate the mass relays. They will not create new technology themselves. 

Firstly, Javik's time was also subject to the Mass Relays and the Citadel, so of course there would be galactic conflicts. The level of technology is irrelevant, so long evolution's pace was broken in any way.

As for current Earth, yes there are wars, but that's the process of our evolution. The human race has become less and less violent, more and more charitative and diplomatic over time. The most civilized countries of the world now act as peacekeepers in less advanced nations and provide aid, food and charity to their innocent.

If you look at our past, at first the strongest guy used to be the ruler of his land. Whoever disagreed got clubbed down. Some hundreds of years later there were terrible and bloody wars followed by pillaging and worse. We've all read or known about these stories. Hell, not even 300 years ago Europe was plagued by the Inquisition. Imagine you give a spaceship and a Mass Relay jump to a medieval templar, or a hun pillager, or a bloodtihrsty viking.

But look now how far we've got. We learn as a race, and one day we'll be ready to completely avoid wide scale violence as a whole. And perhaps that day is the day we'd be learn how to build our first Mass Relay.

Modifié par Shallyah, 28 mai 2012 - 11:49 .

[nicksmi56]

I support control completely. Destroy gives in to the Catslyst's logic by killing all synthetics, thus solving HIS problem of "Organics and synthetics cannot coexist." Shepard basically says "Of course Catalyst, you're completely right!" It backstabs your allies that you spent 2 games cultivating relationships with and destroys the structure of the galaxy all in the name of petty revenge. Go Shepard? XD

Synthesis is wrong for me because I couldn't imagine waking up half robot. It's a humungous life change for everyone in the galaxy without consent. And it still destroys the structure of the galaxy. Plus it's still solving Catalyst's problem. The only reason I could choose it would be to save my friends. Hopefully they won't starve to death if they're half robot?

Control, to me, is the only one that refutes Catalyst's problem. It only affects the Reapers and diversity is still out there. The relays aren't destroyed and I can repair them, I can send a Reaper to save my friends, and the Citadel is intact. For everyone that says to destroy all Reaper tech, we pretty much know their whole plan is: use Citadel to bring Reapers and shut off relays, then kill everyone. If Reapers are GOOD now, why would they do any of those things or indoctrinate anyone? They're mine. The mass relays aren't evil anymore. Neither is the Citadel. Heck, we could even use the Reapers to help out the next time a galaxy wide threat comes along. Control saves the galaxy without screwing everyone else over.

[Seival]

[quote]Archontor wrote...

[quote]Seival wrote...

[quote]Archontor wrote...

[quote]Seival wrote...

[quote]Archontor wrote...

[quote]Seival wrote...

[quote]Archontor wrote...

[quote]Seival wrote...

[quote]Archontor wrote...

[quote]Seival wrote...

[quote]Archontor wrote...

How does Shep control them, he's did, he vaporised on considerable pain whilst surrounded by lightning. If it really was brain uploading they'd just strap some electrodes to their head and fall over dead.[/quote]

More and more people are starting to realize that Shepard becomes a new Catalist in control ending
[/quote] 

Didn't answer a thing, if you get vaporised you die. 

More importantly Shep becomes another genocidal ****. 

That's more than a defeat it's just depressing.

[/quote]

As a new Catalist, Shepard keeps her personality. You can see the proof of it in the ending itself - Reapers go away, remaining under full Shepard's control. I just can't call this "Shepard died" no matter Shepard lost her body. I can call it only "Shepard survived, and become heavily upgraded". Citadel is her new body. Beautiful, isn't it?
[/quote]

Except the Catalyst exactly states that you will loose everything you are. Moreover your just using headcannon as an answer. I could just as easily say that they received Shep's tactical skill and pulled back to regroup you know in that giant in penetrable fortress filled with people to make reapers out of.

My headcannon is bigger than yours.[/quote]

Pull back? From what? A united fleet that can't do any real damage to them?

The entire United Fleet was just a distraction, nothing more.

By "loose everything" and "die" Catalist meant human body and everything that comes with it. If it was not the case, then Catalist could just say - "you will die" and add nothing to it.[/quote]

Actually they would pull back for a number of reasons. There are enough ships to seriously dmage and or kill many many Reapers even sovreign type before being exterminated (espescially if they do those suicide nuje things like palaven) combined with Liara's chests of information there is a great potential for the next cycle to develop enough to roflstomp them. If they just sit back the fractured races (now devoid of mass relays) will squable for land and resources, those that don't die of starvation and illness or the effects of eezo contamination/ stray shots during the battle that hit earth will see new divisions and they'll either go to war seriously weakening their forces or just have to demilitarise to free up resources to feed the people stuck on earth. At that point you charge in and kill them all suffering minimal losses and pry the location of liara's databoxes. Shep would know.

And no lose everything you are means more than die. Death as you have pointed out can simply mean biological death, people have survived being 'dead' for a few hours and do so commonly. To lose everything you are sounds like a more metaphysical loss of your memories or opinions or personality, in essence it strips the organic facets from you and lets you become a cold collection of uninflected experiences and imoral logic that provides logistical control but dosen't take moral authority.

Hey your right he does become the catalyst.

[/quote]

In ME1 three different fleets combined couldn't do any damage to Nazara. They killed it finally ONLY because Shepard somehow turned off Nazara's shield (defeating Nazara's Avatar was clearly involved).

In ME3 only Destroyers are weak enough so they can be actually damaged. Reaper dreadnoughts (like the Harbinger or Nazara) are almost invulnerable to United Fleet attacks. You can see it in the battle for the Earth. Combined United fleet attack barely damaged only one Reaper Dreadnought. And the Dreadnoughts are most represented ships in the Reaper fleet.

United Fleet role was a distraction. It could not do anything else but distract the Reapers, so Shepard's work will become easier. Reapers had no reason to pull back.



And as I already said, in case of Shepard "loose everything" doesn't mean loose her personality. You can see the proof of it in the final cutscene - where the Reapers were actually indeed Pulled Back... Because Shepard ordered them to do so.[/quote]

soveriegn took the citadel by surprise and had geth assistance against mostly frigates and cruisers with primative mass drivers and even then it was a miscomunication with the cinematic team that made him look that strong. This time they're going up against prepared ships
armed with Thanix cannons. And as I said people may well be desperate to just try a massive nuclear strike and take as many reapers as they can with them. The Reapers would probably win this cycle but they'd lose the next with diminished numbers and a lost technical high ground. One way or another the Reapers will lose if they don't reconsolidate their power and kill off this cycle first and hunt down any data caches. Sheppard would know that, and my assessment that all of shep that survives is memories and perhaps their logical schemas--enough to alter Reper procedure without being enough to constitute remaining as a person is just as valid as your...theory.

the catalyst implicitly says "You will die. You will control us, but you will lose everything you have." So you're saying that when it says shepard will die Shepard dosen't die and when ot says you will lose everything you have you don't lose everything you have.

You've either deluded yourself with positive thinking (thanks for making paragons look bad by the way) or you admit the catalyst is a lying warmonger in which case trusting it is the worst possible decision.[/quote]

You should watch ME1 and ME3 endings more carefull. Nazara died only because Shepard turned off Nazara's shield. And all these Thanix cannons are not good enough against the Reapers.

BioWare used "Deus Ex Machina" scenario for reason - Reapers were intended to be unstoppable.

You just misunderstood the phrase "You will die. You will control us, but you will lose everything you have." . Catalist means that Shepard will no longer be a human being. If that was not the case, then Catalist could say just "you will die" and add nothing to it.[/quote]

I have watched them, there were mostly frigates beside the destiny ascension (which was bullrushed so it's long range oriented tactics were of little use) up against an admittedly small portion of the geth fleet--the largest known fleet in the galaxy and one of the most advanced. In comparisson we now have somewhere up to around twenty thousand ships, all armed with thanix weapons which can largely bypass sheilds and all of them are expecting reapers and have planned accordingly. We have evidence of the Turians taking down numerous dreadnoughts alone and outnumbered and codex entries to confirm it.

And no you have misuunderstood to "You will die" and "you will loose everything you have" to mean "you will survive" and "you won't loose much at all." Also known of as delusion. frankly adding "you will lose everything you have" suggests that it is more than a physical death for the endless optimists like you.

[/quote]

In ME1 there were a lot of cruisers also in that battle. And even dreadnoughts (not just destiny, but also turian ships). Also, you can see how three combined fleets tried to focus-fire Nazara for 10 min (or so) - no damage. Someone in the cutscene even suggested to fall back and leave the Citadel. The only reason why Nazara was killed - Shepard managed to shut down its shild temporary. And Nazara was only one Reaper.

In ME3 Reaper fleet has the same numbers (or even more) as the United Fleet. And Reapers completely outnumbered United Fleet in terms of Dreadnoughts' quantity... Finally, All that United Fleet could do is to damage one Dreadnought. They didn't even manage to destroy it. So all these 1000000 Thanix Cannons were not effective against  Reapers' shields.

I can't call Shepard becoming a new Catalist "Shepard died". I consider it as survived. If you call it "Shepard died" - well, it's your opinion, but I disagree.

Modifié par Seival, 28 mai 2012 - 12:01 .

[Shallyah]

Seival wrote...

In ME1 there were a lot of cruisers also in that battle. And even dreadnoughts (not just destiny, but also turian ships). Also, you can see how three combined fleets tried to focus-fire Nazara for 10 min (or so) - no damage. Someone in the cutscene even suggested to fall back and leave the Citadel. The only reason why Nazara was killed - Shepard managed to shut down its shild temporary. And Nazara was only one Reaper.

In ME3 Reaper fleet has the same numbers (or even more) then the United Fleet. And Reapers completely outnumbered United Fleet in terms of Dreadnoughts' quantity... Finally, All that United Fleet could do is to damage one Dreadnought. They didn't even manage to destroy it. So all these 1000000 Thanix Cannons were not effective against  Reapers' shields.

I can't call Shepard becoming a new Catalist "Shepard died". I consider it as survived. If you call it "Shepard died" - well, it's your opinion, but I disagree.

I killed a Reaper with two missiles shot from a random truck stranded in Earth. You are so delusional that it's starting to be a bit sad.