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[Fiery Knight]

Interesting theories guys! Been reading with enjoyemeny, and can't saddly add much to the discussion, only that there's very much to speculate on but not much facts that can be proven as evidence. I mean, maybe Shepard stats a war, maybe there will be ever lasting peace, yadayada, well it's too difficult to say exact, but still enjoy speclulating on the subject.

[Icharas]

CrutchCricket wrote...
OK but honestly on the scales you're talking about the whole thing becomes kind of ridiculous. If you have to resort to, "given eternity, x will happen" then there really is no point in even formulating it. Given eternity an asteroid will strike one particular planet. Great, so what, we're going to destroy all asteroids because given eternity everything can happen?
Given eternity our whole galaxy might be destroyed through some other cosmic cataclysm (dark eneregy?) before the rise of Skynet. You're saying it's as inevitable as entropy? Well if that's the case, there's no use going on about it because a) you can't stop it anyway and I doubt any of us, including nigh-eternal beings like the Reapers will have to worry about it. 

I don't think the asteroid is a good example as by now, most races should be able to prevent a meteor strike, though that's not the point anyway. However, seeing as the harvest didn't happen incidentally but was timed accordingly to the organic races' level of technology, I guess it can't be too far in the future. Yeah I know... I was the one who brought the eternity thing up in the first place. Let's focus on more recent events.
The Krogan rebellions happened ~1,500 years ago and galactic civilization remembers them (as it resembles ~two generations to the Asari/Krogan). To them, that's closer than WWII to us which still is an important part of our history/civilization. From a short lived species perspective, however, this is ancient history. We know of the roman empire through ancient records and ruins yet it isn't part of our lives any more. Or another example: Napoleon underestimated the russian winter, Hitler *soon after* did the same.
Organic species will forget/ignore the past sooner or later, even though they still have records. (Not contradicting my previous example on the Commander, as it would be one single being and partly synthetic. The Geth do not forget.)

Now it was in 1895 when the Geth became self aware (just looked that up) and 2163 when the Alliance began illegal AI research, eventually leading to Saren's Geth attacking the Citadel 20 years later. The Quarians lost their homeworld and their embassy was closed by the council, the majority of Asari and Krogans still remember it for sure: After all it was a major event in recent history. I am 19 now and remember where I was and even the direction I was facing when my father told me about the news on 9/11.
Now even though the Alliance surely was told of this event and therefore AI research being illegal, still started AI experiments. Not some rogue group like Cerberus, but the Systems Alliance itself, the galactic representation of humankind.
The Quarians won't do the same mistake again for a long time (maybe never, assuming they go extinct at some point). The citadel races, having experienced the reaper war, will be reminded by Asari and Krogan for a long time.
However, if the reapers are destroyed, there should be plenty of wrecks lying around. It has been two years since first contact with the Raloi was made. We can only imagine how many different races will enter the galactic community within the next few hundred years. I can easily see one of them discovering some reaper artifacts and starting their own research, just as the Alliance did. The beacon on Thessia allowed the Asari to be the most advanced civilization for millennia. If race X discovers reaper artifacts, how can they possibly resist studying them?

If we assume no further races are discovered, the Raloi are sufficiently scared and the citadel races pass on their records to their children, they will remember for a long time, even for the Asari. But what measure is 'a long time' anyway? On cosmic scale, it's still nothing. To the eternal reapers, it didn't matter wether they returned 45,000 or 55,000 years after the last cataclysm. To the reaped, ten thousand years are a huge difference and I don't expect even the Asari not to increase personal comfort by creating synthetics only because of some cuttlefish attack 10,000 years ago.

Modifié par Icharas, 12 juillet 2012 - 04:47 .

[Seival]

Seival wrote...

CrutchCricket wrote...

obZen DF wrote...
@Cricketycricket: Yes, that's a good point you got there, about Commander not necessarily needing us. I overlooked that fact. But I truly think that Commander will do something to improve organics. Maybe only in it's beginning stage, right after everything is rebuild. That it needs to 'grow' into the system or something. And because of Shepard's persona, and taking into account Dr. Manhatten's way to help  improve technology for the army and such. And indeed, after awhile, it persues new goals beyond our comprehension. Isn't that what you said in the Control explained thread? But, where I'm trying to go to, is the amount of time before that happens. And how it will happen. Commander is centered on the Citadel right? So, what will happen if it decides to go to another galaxy, for instance? I'm pretty interested in how other people think about that and come to a certain hypothesis.

My brain is not really helping me out tonight haha. Can't think straight.

Yes before the disconnect Commander's presence will have some beneficial effects although if we follow the Watchmen model exactly it might also lead to rising tensions and the brink of total annihilation (for example if it favored humans because Shepard was human). The theme of technology unearned is also huge in ME so I don't think Commander will be very forthcoming with the advancements. But yes expecting some improvements makes sense.
And I have no idea how long it would be before the disconnect. Could be a few years, could be centuries. Although going by the post I linked to recently in my Control Explained thread it should be much faster than that, almost instantaneous. But given the epilogue, I suppose we must assume some significant time passes before indifference sets in.

As for how it will leave, there you have to go full headcanon. For myself I invision that Commander immediately (i.e. as soon as it assumes control) deletes or absorbs every Reaper consciousness and installs itself in the shells. It then removes itself from the Citadel (perhaps leaving some a guardian program of some sort behind) but not before trashing the Crucible docking mechanism so none may override its control. It is now free, one entity composed of many parts, its capabilities and potential increased a thousandfold.

Interesting thoughts on self-defending after becoming the new Catalist. But I don't think it's really needed. Only Catalist itself can give permission for Control. Catalist can't be hacked no matter how advanced a hacker is. And the Catalist already "resides" in each Reaper. Its the Reapers' collective mind. All Reapers, Citadel, and I think that even all Mass Relayes are different parts of the same enormous creature, and the Catalist is the brain of this creature. Each Reaper can be used as the Catalist's backup.

...Also I disagree that Shepard-Catalist will not be interested in Galactic Civilization after some time. AIs can't become bored. And the Catalist has enough processing power and Mobile Platforms to perform tasks both for Galactic Civilization and for its own (exploring some other galaxy for example). But I'm sure Shepard-Catalist will be involved only in some major activities. It will not bother to resolve some minor problems.

...Well, I also think that Shepard-Catalist may even resolve some minor problems, if those are its friend's or LI's problems. Shepard-Catalist still cares about them according to the epilogue... And actually, I want to create a picture about this

[Fiery Knight]

^Please do that picture, I want to see it!

[Chewin]

Managed to get my game registered today, so can finally post here. Been lurking for awhile and found that there's some interesting discussions on this thread, so decided to join if no one minds.

[CroGamer002]

Chewin3 wrote...

Managed to get my game registered today, so can finally post here. Been lurking for awhile and found that there's some interesting discussions on this thread, so decided to join if no one minds.

I have problem with it.

[Fiery Knight]

Chewin3 wrote...

Managed to get my game registered today, so can finally post here. Been lurking for awhile and found that there's some interesting discussions on this thread, so decided to join if no one minds.

Heh, as I said in Vega thread, welcome back yet again! I've sure been missing your posts around here.

Anyway, can you give your view on Control ending? I'd love to hear your opinion on it.

[Gulaman]

Control ending is awesome, best possible ending imaginable.

[CrutchCricket]

Seival wrote...
Interesting thoughts on self-defending after becoming the new Catalist. But I don't think it's really needed. Only Catalist itself can give permission for Control. Catalist can't be hacked no matter how advanced a hacker is. And the Catalist already "resides" in each Reaper. Its the Reapers' collective mind. All Reapers, Citadel, and I think that even all Mass Relayes are different parts of the same enormous creature, and the Catalist is the brain of this creature. Each Reaper can be used as the Catalist's backup.

Never say never. Both organic tech and Commander will advance far beyond the upper limit previously imposed by the cycles. Even the current geth consensus may prove a threat if they're allowed access. Commander will take no risks (at least in my version).

...Also I disagree that Shepard-Catalist will not be interested in Galactic Civilization after some time. AIs can't become bored. And the Catalist has enough processing power and Mobile Platforms to perform tasks both for Galactic Civilization and for its own (exploring some other galaxy for example). But I'm sure Shepard-Catalist will be involved only in some major activities. It will not bother to resolve some minor problems.

It's not about boredom, it's about interest. Organics are just too insignificant in the grand scheme of things to care about them for very long. it's not that Commander can't look after them and pursue whatever goals, it's that it won't because organic life will soon seem too trival to bother with.

[Chewin]

Mesina2 wrote...
I have problem with it.

You often do, dear Mesina.

Hawke_12 wrote...
Anyway, can you give your view on Control ending? I'd love to hear your opinion on it.[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wink.png[/smilie]

Doubt there's much to say that haven't already been said, but sure.

It's easier to describe it by braking down the other two endings, and let me start by saying that out of all the endings, I find Control to be the least crappy one. This is b/c of the simple reasons that e.g. what the other option imposes.

Destroy establishes a false dichotomy for the series. ME was never about organics vs synthetics, but rather sentience vs non-sentience. The whole point of the Geth in the first place was that A.Is can be as sapient as humans. Yet Shepard can easily agree with the Catalyst in basically separating the universe between synthetics and organics, and wiping out the former. Plus Shepard seems to live even though the Catalyst stated he / she will die. Whether it is a big headed liar, well that is debatable.

Synthesis, is obviously a pile of garbage, and that's not only because of space magic and / or making no sense in the first place with the synthesizing of the DNA. The entire point of the ME series is that diversity is a good thing, and even is the sole reason why humanity has been so special in the first place and are better than every other race. Yet ultimately the Synthesis ending disgustingly makes it that being all the same with no diversity is actually better, and is the key to a better universe.

And ultimately the Control ending. The major concern with this is actually Shepard himself / herself acting as a total fool in every conversation with TIM, with him / her dismissing everything TIM says on the Control subject. Not once can Shepard be able to agree or even investigate how TIM would do it and what would he do after accomplishing is goal. There is no middle ground, and Shepard only believes that Destroy is the only option. And when suddenly Shepard meets the Catalyst, he / she changes his / her mind, and Shepard always being the short sighted idiot throughout the games, I don't personally feel he / she is wise enough to take on that responsibility.

And let's not forget the Prothean AI, who says that the Reapers used and enslaved those who thought they can be controlled. And yet Shepard can agree with control just like that. Not to mention what Sovereign said in ME1: "We are each a nation, independent and free of all weakness". Wuut?

Anyway, my impression on the different endings.

Modifié par Chewin3, 12 juillet 2012 - 07:34 .

[CrutchCricket]

Icharas wrote...
I don't think the asteroid is a good example as by now, most races should be able to prevent a meteor strike, though that's not the point anyway. However, seeing as the harvest didn't happen incidentally but was timed accordingly to the organic races' level of technology, I guess it can't be too far in the future. Yeah I know... I was the one who brought the eternity thing up in the first place.

Well, that was the basis for your whole argument and why the asteroid example actually works. We started talking about cases of wars with synthetics and how the ended:
The geth- reached peace or were destroyed
The Metacon War: organics were about to win.

then you said yeah, but given enough time, it'll still happen eventually. Well that's the kind of inevitability you could prove with anything. Say both I and Yvonne Strahovski were immortal (no wish fulfillment here:whistle:). I could then just as easily say that given eternity, it is inevitable we'll eventually hook up. But that doesn't really mean anything because we don't really have eternity.

Likewise with synthetics. I'm not convinced life really has eternity to make Skynet inevitable. Why not some other galactic cateclysm, one even the Reapers can't predict? And no other proof for the inevitability of Skynet has yet been brought forth.

You can argue that it is very likely that organics will keep creating synthetics. You may even argue for a high probability of a war between them. But none of this leads to the inevitability you need to justify the holokid and the Reapers (who fyi are part of the problem).

[Fiery Phoenix]

So, I finished my Insanity playthrough today. While I'm a Destroyer by heart, my curiosity got the better of me and I thought I'd choose Control. I had seen the original (pre-EC) Control so I had some idea as to how it plays out.

I have to say it was creepy, but also interesting. The thought of Shepard effectively replacing the Catalyst and becoming a guardian is not to be taken lightly. Control is the only ending that fully demonstrates Shepard's fate and what it means for the galaxy. The transition from a human being to something of a God entity is in and of itself significant, and I believe it's a big part of the reason Control intrigues some people.

I still prefer Destroy, but Control is easily my second favorite.

Modifié par Fiery Phoenix, 12 juillet 2012 - 08:03 .

[Seival]

Chewin3 wrote...

Managed to get my game registered today, so can finally post here. Been lurking for awhile and found that there's some interesting discussions on this thread, so decided to join if no one minds.

Welcome

[Urazz]

Destroy seems like it's more the canon ending that would be picked. Control would be the next that seems reasonable. Synthesis seems too unrealistic and happy of an ending to be feasible in my opinion.

On why Shepard can argue against control to the Illusive Man is because at the time there was no idea that they could control the reapers and Cerberus has a bad track record when it comes to going with chancy stuff like that.

[Icharas]

Destroy establishes a false dichotomy for the series. ME was never about organics vs synthetics, but rather sentience vs non-sentience. The whole point of the Geth in the first place was that A.Is can be as sapient as humans. Yet Shepard can easily agree with the Catalyst in basically separating the universe
between synthetics and organics, and wiping out the former. Plus Shepard seems to live even though the Catalyst stated he / she will die. Whether it is a big headed liar, well that is debatable.

I assumed quite the opposite, with Destroy you essentially stay true to your belief you had through the entire series. At least when playing a renegade, it's 'we destroy them or they destroy us'. From Shepards perspective, Destroy is the only way to make sure the reapers will never pose a threat again. The death of every other form of synthetic life is an unfortunate side effect which Shepard (in this ending) is willing to accept.
It's in the long run where I have my issues with Destroy, as I've stated earlier.

And ultimately the Control ending. The major concern with this is actually Shepard himself / herself acting as a total fool in every conversation with TIM, with him / her dismissing everything TIM says on the Control subject. Not once can
Shepard be able to agree or even investigate how TIM would do it and
what would he do after accomplishing is goal. There is no middle ground, and Shepard only believes that Destroy is the only option.

True. I really missed the possibility to agree with TIM (as well as Saren in ME1) at least to some degree or trying to understand HOW they wanted to reach their goals...



@CrutchCricket: Very well, it seems we won't reach consensus in this case. I still expect organics to unleash Skynet on themselves at some point in the future, you don't... I hope you're right.

Modifié par Icharas, 12 juillet 2012 - 08:48 .

[TopSun]

A question:
Is there a Synthesis Support Thread? Or such great control banners (by the way very good work Seival) just for synthesis?
Thank you.

Modifié par Big-Boss687, 12 juillet 2012 - 08:31 .

[Chewin]

@Seival Thank you!

Urazz wrote...
On why Shepard can argue against control to the Illusive Man is because at the time there was no idea that they could control the reapers and Cerberus has a bad track record when it comes to going with chancy stuff like that.

That doesn't neglect the option for Shepard to address it. Shepard clearly has no idea how to do it, yet alone if it is even possible. Yet TIM does seem extremely certain that it's possible. Then why not investigate it further and ask him how exactly he will succeeded?

And Cerberus having a bad track, ME2 went some extent to show you that they aren't all that bad of an organization people tend to make them. My Shepard fully supported them in ME2 and their motives, but that option doesn't appear at all in ME3 and am forced to disagree with them no matter what.

[Chewin]

Icharas wrote...
I assumed quite the opposite, with Destroy you essentially stay true to your belief you had through the entire series. At least when playing a renegade, it's 'we destroy them or they destroy us'. From Shepards perspective, Destroy is the only way to make sure the reapers will never pose a threat again. The death of every other form of synthetic life is an unfortunate side effect which Shepard (in this ending) is willing to accept.
It's in the long run where I have my issues with Destroy, as I've stated earlier.

Yes, Shepard did seek to destroy them right from the very beginning. But the main problem (that I stated above already) still remains, and while you may hold truth to destroy being the only option, you go against your beliefs on sentience vs non-sentience, which was what ME series stood for.

E.g. in ME3 Legion asks if it has a sole, which basically means that is it sentience. This was the point that it tried to deliver, that A.Is can be sapient like humans. But then you agree with the Catalyst that basically this isn't the case, and you can only separate the universe in synthetics and organics.

Modifié par Chewin3, 12 juillet 2012 - 08:42 .

[R3MUS]

Can someone tell me why Shepard says "Eternal. Immortal. Infinite. The were the words i used as a man". He never said those words under the entire ME trilogy.

What does it mean?

[Fiery Phoenix]

R3MUS wrote...

Can someone tell me why Shepard says "Eternal. Immortal. Infinite. The were the words i used as a man". He never said those words under the entire ME trilogy.

What does it mean?

As I understand it, that was a general statement. You could just as well replace the words I and man with we and humans respectively and still retain the same meaning.

Modifié par Fiery Phoenix, 12 juillet 2012 - 09:02 .

[Fiery Knight]

Chewin3 wrote...
Doubt there's much to say that haven't already been said, but sure.

*snip*

Wow! Well you can stop doubting, since you managed to summarize all the three endings perfectly for me! I mean, the only dislike I had about the Destroy ending was the killing of Geth, but I didn't think it was much more serious than that! Though I dislike that you find them all to be crap. Even Control as well.  But I can see your point of view, and I agree with you, to some extent. Was hoping the reason you returned was b/c you liked what EC delivered.

Did you went for Reject then or?

[Seival]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Seival wrote...
Interesting thoughts on self-defending after becoming the new Catalist. But I don't think it's really needed. Only Catalist itself can give permission for Control. Catalist can't be hacked no matter how advanced a hacker is. And the Catalist already "resides" in each Reaper. Its the Reapers' collective mind. All Reapers, Citadel, and I think that even all Mass Relayes are different parts of the same enormous creature, and the Catalist is the brain of this creature. Each Reaper can be used as the Catalist's backup.

(1)
Never say never. Both organic tech and Commander will advance far beyond the upper limit previously imposed by the cycles. Even the current geth consensus may prove a threat if they're allowed access. Commander will take no risks (at least in my version).

...Also I disagree that Shepard-Catalist will not be interested in Galactic Civilization after some time. AIs can't become bored. And the Catalist has enough processing power and Mobile Platforms to perform tasks both for Galactic Civilization and for its own (exploring some other galaxy for example). But I'm sure Shepard-Catalist will be involved only in some major activities. It will not bother to resolve some minor problems.

(2)
It's not about boredom, it's about interest. Organics are just too insignificant in the grand scheme of things to care about them for very long. it's not that Commander can't look after them and pursue whatever goals, it's that it won't because organic life will soon seem too trival to bother with.

(1)
I think this is the point - the Catalist and the Reapers don't actually have any "access". There are no "input", "upload" or "download" mechanisms. That's why the Crucible and the Citadel were needed. Crucible is an enormous power source, and a bomb. The Citadel is also a power source, but also a "device" which can distribute colossal amounts of power, directing the energy and making it possible for that energy to affect some objects selectively.

...So, I believe that Crucible+Citadel+MassRelays is a colossal Amlifier. In case of Control, it affects all Reapers, Citadel, and Mass Relays on atomic level. Original Catalist could allow the explosion to affect it, or block the effect. It prefered to allow the effect, and so helped Shepard to become the new Catalist... So noone can replace current Catalist without its permission. No matter how hard your try, how many Crucibles did you construct, and how many Shepards you've found... Destroy and Synthesis are also impossible without the Catalist's permission.

(2)
Well, according to the epilogue, Shepard-Catalist still interested in Galactic Civilization, friends, and LI. Someone can loose some interest only because of bordom. And AIs can't become bored or tired, because their feelings work differently. Shepard-Catalist has its preferences and they are eternal as the Catalist itself. Also, as I said, Catalist has enough processing power and mobile platforms to do everything it interested in. It can explore another galaxy and help our Galactic Civilization at the same time.

Modifié par Seival, 12 juillet 2012 - 09:09 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

R3MUS wrote...

Can someone tell me why Shepard says "Eternal. Immortal. Infinite. The were the words i used as a man". He never said those words under the entire ME trilogy.

What does it mean?

As I understand it, that was a general statement. You could just as well replace the words I and man with we and humans respectively and still retain the same meaning.

As I understood it was more like he had known of those words when he was human, but only as the catalyst does he fully understand what such words truly mean.

It does not matter if he ever said them in the game, he undoubtetly knew of them.

[Seival]

I have a theory about how the Crucible works by the way: http://social.biowar...ndex/12045178/1

Modifié par Seival, 12 juillet 2012 - 09:17 .

[Seival]

Big-Boss687 wrote...

A question:
Is there a Synthesis Support Thread? Or such great control banners (by the way very good work Seival) just for synthesis?
Thank you.

No problem

Yes, there is good Synthesis support thread actually:
http://social.biowar...ndex/12153660/1

Not sure about banners though...