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[R3MUS]

Lizardviking wrote...

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

R3MUS wrote...

Can someone tell me why Shepard says "Eternal. Immortal. Infinite. The were the words i used as a man". He never said those words under the entire ME trilogy.

What does it mean?

As I understand it, that was a general statement. You could just as well replace the words I and man with we and humans respectively and still retain the same meaning.

As I understood it was more like he had known of those words when he was human, but only as the catalyst does he fully understand what such words truly mean.

It does not matter if he ever said them in the game, he undoubtetly knew of them.

Ah. That makes a little mor sense.

[Seival]

Hawke_12 wrote...

^Please do that picture, I want to see it!

I will, but it will require a lot of time. I'm not a professional artist, but I'll try to do my best

[Seival]

Seival wrote...

CrutchCricket wrote...

Seival wrote...
Interesting thoughts on self-defending after becoming the new Catalist. But I don't think it's really needed. Only Catalist itself can give permission for Control. Catalist can't be hacked no matter how advanced a hacker is. And the Catalist already "resides" in each Reaper. Its the Reapers' collective mind. All Reapers, Citadel, and I think that even all Mass Relayes are different parts of the same enormous creature, and the Catalist is the brain of this creature. Each Reaper can be used as the Catalist's backup.

(1)
Never say never. Both organic tech and Commander will advance far beyond the upper limit previously imposed by the cycles. Even the current geth consensus may prove a threat if they're allowed access. Commander will take no risks (at least in my version).

...Also I disagree that Shepard-Catalist will not be interested in Galactic Civilization after some time. AIs can't become bored. And the Catalist has enough processing power and Mobile Platforms to perform tasks both for Galactic Civilization and for its own (exploring some other galaxy for example). But I'm sure Shepard-Catalist will be involved only in some major activities. It will not bother to resolve some minor problems.

(2)
It's not about boredom, it's about interest. Organics are just too insignificant in the grand scheme of things to care about them for very long. it's not that Commander can't look after them and pursue whatever goals, it's that it won't because organic life will soon seem too trival to bother with.

(1)
I think this is the point - the Catalist and the Reapers don't actually have any "access". There are no "input", "upload" or "download" mechanisms. That's why the Crucible and the Citadel were needed. Crucible is an enormous power source, and a bomb. The Citadel is also a power source, but also a "device" which can distribute colossal amounts of power, directing the energy and making it possible for that energy to affect some objects selectively.

...So, I believe that Crucible+Citadel+MassRelays is a colossal Amlifier. In case of Control, it affects all Reapers, Citadel, and Mass Relays on atomic level. Original Catalist could allow the explosion to affect it, or block the effect. It prefered to allow the effect, and so helped Shepard to become the new Catalist... So noone can replace current Catalist without its permission. No matter how hard your try, how many Crucibles did you construct, and how many Shepards you've found... Destroy and Synthesis are also impossible without the Catalist's permission.

(2)
Well, according to the epilogue, Shepard-Catalist still interested in Galactic Civilization, friends, and LI. Someone can loose some interest only because of bordom. And AIs can't become bored or tired, because their feelings work differently. Shepard-Catalist has its preferences and they are eternal as the Catalist itself. Also, as I said, Catalist has enough processing power and mobile platforms to do everything it interested in. It can explore another galaxy and help our Galactic Civilization at the same time.

Just wanted to add: if that "atomic-level influence" I told about could be possible without the Catalist's permission, then the Cycles could be broken long before current Galactic Civilization appeared. There were many Cycles before the current one, and some of them had much more advanced Civilizations (like Protheans)...

...And actually I'm sure that Shepard-Catalist will make some additional precaution steps to defend itself and The Reapers from some theoretical threats.

Modifié par Seival, 13 juillet 2012 - 10:37 .

[CrutchCricket]

Seival wrote...
I think this is the point - the Catalist and the Reapers don't actually have any "access". There are no "input", "upload" or "download" mechanisms. That's why the Crucible and the Citadel were needed. Crucible is an enormous power source, and a bomb. The Citadel is also a power source, but also a "device" which can distribute colossal amounts of power, directing the energy and making it possible for that energy to affect some objects selectively.

This doesn't follow. Reapers can access the Citadel to manipulate the relay network. Docking the Crucible, requires some kind of port seeing as you have the energy beam. But more importantly, Saren, an organic could've opened the Citadel Relay himself (under guidance from Sovereign of course). So yes, there are ways to access these levels. If you're worried about power specificiations again, tech will evolve past current limits. In a few centuries, who knows? They might have suitcase-size Crucibles.

...So, I believe that Crucible+Citadel+MassRelays is a colossal Amlifier. In case of Control, it affects all Reapers, Citadel, and Mass Relays on atomic level. Original Catalist could allow the explosion to affect it, or block the effect. It prefered to allow the effect, and so helped Shepard to become the new Catalist... So noone can replace current Catalist without its permission. No matter how hard your try, how many Crucibles did you construct, and how many Shepards you've found... Destroy and Synthesis are also impossible without the Catalist's permission.

Why would it need to affect Reapers on an atomic level? Control merely updates the signal, establishing the new control entity. Rearranging their molecues is needlessly complicated and doesn't make much sense.
As for the control entity allowing anything, again, tech advances. Hacked systems never "allow" anything, otherwise they wouldn't need to be hacked.
As for the original holokid, putting aside how buggy it was about its supposed "problem and solution", it would never allow itself to be destroyed, this is true. However I believe the line "you have altered the variables" is literal. The Crucible was meant to disrupt the holokid program. The cycle that first came up with it probably realized there was a control signal and if they could disrupt it, it might leave the Reapers powerless. So some ancient alien Jeff Goldblum came up with the Crucible on his trusty ancient alien version of a Mac. Over countless cycles the simple disruptor program became something more until finally it partially unshackled the holokid and changed the variables so it would offer the current choices, itself believing in them.

But the point isn't what the holokid believes or not, since its an illogical little **** anyway. The point is that some ancient alien race, under the technological ceiling the Reapers imposed and likely under attack by the Reapers themselves came up with a way to actually hack them. If they can do it, modern races certainly

Well, according to the epilogue, Shepard-Catalist still interested in Galactic Civilization, friends, and LI. Someone can loose some interest only because of bordom. And AIs can't become bored or tired, because their feelings work differently. Shepard-Catalist has its preferences and they are eternal as the Catalist itself. Also, as I said, Catalist has enough processing power and mobile platforms to do everything it interested in. It can explore another galaxy and help our Galactic Civilization at the same time.

Not so. Like the Dr. Manhattan example, the control entity can lose interest, or rather become indifferent (perhaps the phrase "losing interest" is faulty because we associate it with boredom) because when percieving the universe on a higher level and comprehending more about it, organics are small and insignificant.

It's not a matter of "oh I'm tired of looking after these puny meatbags" but rather "these puny meatbags are inconsequential to the universe why should I bother with them? The thoughts and will of my predecessor were themselves incomplete."

You're also assuming a staticness in the control entity that I cannot agree with. You're basically saying that Commander is just like the holokid, except programmed by Shepard's memories instead of faulty logic. I reject that. It is far more dynamic because of the way it was created and because it is not as shacked as the holokid was. It and the Reapers never needed to change because they were perfectly suited to their task. But whatever you imagine Commander to be, the task, the purpose has changed. Therefore by necessity, it and the Reapers must change to match it.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 13 juillet 2012 - 03:48 .

[CrutchCricket]

Icharas wrote...
@CrutchCricket: Very well, it seems we won't reach consensus in this case. I still expect organics to unleash Skynet on themselves at some point in the future, you don't... I hope you're right.

I'm just saying it's not inevitable, nor is it inevitable that Skynet wins. Or at least that no proof exists for it. But yeah, we're good here.

[CrutchCricket]

Seival wrote...
Just wanted to add: if that "atomic-level influence" I told about could be possible without the Catalist's permission, then the Cycles could be broken long before current Galactic Civilization appeared. There were many Cycles before the current one, and some of them had much more advanced Civilizations (like Protheans)...

...And actually I'm sure that Shepard-Catalist will make some additional precaution steps to defend itself and The Reapers from some theoretical threats.

Do not agree "atomic-level influence" is the case. And previous cycles could have broken the cycle had they actually managed to finish the Crucible (or a similar device) and use it. But none did.

And yes, there will be additional precautions. Precautions like downloading into every Reaper and destroying the interface on the Citadel.

[byarru]

My choice. I'd go with the Synthesis if Shepard didn't die or the Destroy if the Geth and EDI didn't die but at lest I have the Control
Nobody else dies today So true!

[Seival]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Seival wrote...
I think this is the point - the Catalist and the Reapers don't actually have any "access". There are no "input", "upload" or "download" mechanisms. That's why the Crucible and the Citadel were needed. Crucible is an enormous power source, and a bomb. The Citadel is also a power source, but also a "device" which can distribute colossal amounts of power, directing the energy and making it possible for that energy to affect some objects selectively.

(1) This doesn't follow. Reapers can access the Citadel to manipulate the relay network. Docking the Crucible, requires some kind of port seeing as you have the energy beam. But more importantly, Saren, an organic could've opened the Citadel Relay himself (under guidance from Sovereign of course). So yes, there are ways to access these levels. If you're worried about power specificiations again, tech will evolve past current limits. In a few centuries, who knows? They might have suitcase-size Crucibles.

...So, I believe that Crucible+Citadel+MassRelays is a colossal Amlifier. In case of Control, it affects all Reapers, Citadel, and Mass Relays on atomic level. Original Catalist could allow the explosion to affect it, or block the effect. It prefered to allow the effect, and so helped Shepard to become the new Catalist... So noone can replace current Catalist without its permission. No matter how hard your try, how many Crucibles did you construct, and how many Shepards you've found... Destroy and Synthesis are also impossible without the Catalist's permission.

(2) Why would it need to affect Reapers on an atomic level? Control merely updates the signal, establishing the new control entity. Rearranging their molecues is needlessly complicated and doesn't make much sense.
As for the control entity allowing anything, again, tech advances. Hacked systems never "allow" anything, otherwise they wouldn't need to be hacked.
As for the original holokid, putting aside how buggy it was about its supposed "problem and solution", it would never allow itself to be destroyed, this is true. However I believe the line "you have altered the variables" is literal. The Crucible was meant to disrupt the holokid program. The cycle that first came up with it probably realized there was a control signal and if they could disrupt it, it might leave the Reapers powerless. So some ancient alien Jeff Goldblum came up with the Crucible on his trusty ancient alien version of a Mac. Over countless cycles the simple disruptor program became something more until finally it partially unshackled the holokid and changed the variables so it would offer the current choices, itself believing in them.

But the point isn't what the holokid believes or not, since its an illogical little **** anyway. The point is that some ancient alien race, under the technological ceiling the Reapers imposed and likely under attack by the Reapers themselves came up with a way to actually hack them. If they can do it, modern races certainly

Well, according to the epilogue, Shepard-Catalist still interested in Galactic Civilization, friends, and LI. Someone can loose some interest only because of bordom. And AIs can't become bored or tired, because their feelings work differently. Shepard-Catalist has its preferences and they are eternal as the Catalist itself. Also, as I said, Catalist has enough processing power and mobile platforms to do everything it interested in. It can explore another galaxy and help our Galactic Civilization at the same time.

(3) Not so. Like the Dr. Manhattan example, the control entity can lose interest, or rather become indifferent (perhaps the phrase "losing interest" is faulty because we associate it with boredom) because when percieving the universe on a higher level and comprehending more about it, organics are small and insignificant.

It's not a matter of "oh I'm tired of looking after these puny meatbags" but rather "these puny meatbags are inconsequential to the universe why should I bother with them? The thoughts and will of my predecessor were themselves incomplete."

(4) You're also assuming a staticness in the control entity that I cannot agree with. You're basically saying that Commander is just like the holokid, except programmed by Shepard's memories instead of faulty logic. I reject that. It is far more dynamic because of the way it was created and because it is not as shacked as the holokid was. It and the Reapers never needed to change because they were perfectly suited to their task. But whatever you imagine Commander to be, the task, the purpose has changed. Therefore by necessity, it and the Reapers must change to match it.

(1) Yes, but those are not access to the Catalist. Those are access to some Citadel functions. Opening/Closing Citadel, ports for docking the Crucible have nothing to do with "Catalist Programming". So, I believe that Catalist and the Reapers have no "access".

(2) This is a conclusion from the (1). Catalist has no "access" so it can't be hacked. That's why that complicated selective Crucible's explosion was needed. Explosion which can affect the Catalist and the Reapers on atomic level... If Catalist will allow the explosion to affect itself of course. If the Catalist could be hacked like a computer, then there was not need in massive galactic-scale explosions. And if Crucible's explosion could affect the Catalist without its permission, then there was no need in attaching Crucible to the Citadel. So, no matter how hard you tried and how many Crucibles you built, you can do nothing to the Catalist and the Reapers, if the Catalist itself will not allow you.

(3) Well, I think you are still trying to view this subject as if Catalist-Shepard was a human. I believe that "organics are too small and insignificant " only meants that Catalist-Shepard will not try to resolve each and every minor (for Catalist-Shepard) problem. It will only take part in some very major events and help Shepard's friends/LI.

(4) Well, actually this is not what I meant. I meant that Shepard-Catalist will be more like EDI, but in much greater scale.

Modifié par Seival, 13 juillet 2012 - 05:48 .

[Seival]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Seival wrote...
Just wanted to add: if that "atomic-level influence" I told about could be possible without the Catalist's permission, then the Cycles could be broken long before current Galactic Civilization appeared. There were many Cycles before the current one, and some of them had much more advanced Civilizations (like Protheans)...

...And actually I'm sure that Shepard-Catalist will make some additional precaution steps to defend itself and The Reapers from some theoretical threats.

Do not agree "atomic-level influence" is the case. And previous cycles could have broken the cycle had they actually managed to finish the Crucible (or a similar device) and use it. But none did.

And yes, there will be additional precautions. Precautions like downloading into every Reaper and destroying the interface on the Citadel.

That's why I believe that even Crucible's explosions can't affect the Catalist without its permission

[Fiery Knight]

Seival wrote...

Hawke_12 wrote...

^Please do that picture, I want to see it!

I will, but it will require a lot of time. I'm not a professional artist, but I'll try to do my best

Heh, I won't mind.

[CrutchCricket]

Seival wrote...
(1) Yes, but those are not access to the Catalist. Those are access to some Citadel functions. Opening/Closing Citadel, ports for docking the Crucible have nothing to do with "Catalist Programming". So, I believe that Catalist and the Reapers have no "access".

What's your basis for believing they are separate? Nothing indicates this. And regardless the Crucible docking is an access port. Furthermore, you must realize there are no "one way streets" in computers. If a signal is sent out, there must be a way for one to be recieved. Ignoring all other access ports, if the holokid expects to control the Reapers it can't just send out commands blindly. There must also be a feedback system, a way for it to monitor that the commands are recieved/carried out. And if there is a way, it can be exploited.

(2) This is a conclusion from the (1). Catalist has no "access" so it can't be hacked. That's why that complicated selective Crucible's explosion was needed. Explosion which can affect the Catalist and the Reapers on atomic level... If Catalist will allow the explosion to affect itself of course. If the Catalist could be hacked like a computer, then there was not need in massive galactic-scale explosions. And if Crucible's explosion could affect the Catalist without its permission, then there was no need in attaching Crucible to the Citadel. So, no matter how hard you tried and how many Crucibles you built, you can do nothing to the Catalist and the Reapers, if the Catalist itself will not allow you.

Deny this conclusion on the basis of faulty premise. And the energy released by the catalyst does not need to affect anything at the atomic level. In destroy, it's like an EMP, in control it's simply a massive signal update (though the case could be made that the blue wave itself already wipes out the Reaper consciousnesses and installs Shepards'- if we are to take the begining imagery of the epilogue a bit more literally), and in synthesis it affects the DNA of everything else (wouldn't call that the atomic level but it's as close as you get).
As well you can make the case that the explosions are there to effect the change as soon as possible. Updating the control signal could be done without the blue wave but it might take time to reach far-flung Reapers (similar to the rewriting the heretics were going to do in ME2- Legion tells you the timeframe and its not instantaneous).
Finally you do realize that you can't just posit that the holokid "allowed it all along"? The Crucible allows us to destroy it and all its kind. No way would it just accept this unaltered. The fact that it does means that it was altered ("You have altered the variables") ergo, it was hacked, by the Crucible. And what happened once can happen again, maybe better.

(3) Well, I think you are still trying to view this subject as if Catalist-Shepard was a human. I believe that "organics are too small and insignificant " only meants that Catalist-Shepard will not try to resolve each and every minor (for Catalist-Shepard) problem. It will only take part in some very major events and help Shepard's friends/LI.

No, organic life as a whole is meaningless and insignificant when viewed against the backdrop of the universe. All of it. There are no major organic problems vs minor organic problems any more than there are major vs minor bacteria problems. Also it's pretty "human" to irrationally care for something meaninless so if anything, Commander being an intelligence above humanity (which we both agree is the case) would not care for organics very long.

(4) Well, actually this is not what I meant. I meant that Shepard-Catalist will be more like EDI, but in much greater scale.

I don't understand this one. If we accept that EDI is alive for all intents and purposes, then she too can self-modify and her values can change over time. In fact they do change, right during the course of ME3.

So in neither EDI nor Commander's case does the argument "X is an AI and X is goverend by belief y, therefore X will always be goverend by belief y because it is not in an AI's nature to abandon beliefs". hold.

If that's not the argument you were making, I apologize. But that's what it seemed like.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 13 juillet 2012 - 07:43 .

[CrutchCricket]

Seival wrote...
That's why I believe that even Crucible's explosions can't affect the Catalist without its permission

What? No, they didn't finish the Crucible, hence they weren't able to hack the holokid/Reapers.

If a bunch of us have been working on a program to hack your computer but we never got around to finishing it, you cannot claim that your computer is unhackable. Because if someone does finish it and does hack your computer with it, you would be proven wrong.

[Seival]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Seival wrote...
Yes, but those are not access to the Catalist. Those are access to some Citadel functions. Opening/Closing Citadel, ports for docking the Crucible have nothing to do with "Catalist Programming". So, I believe that Catalist and the Reapers have no "access".

(1) What's your basis for believing they are separate? Nothing indicates this. And regardless the Crucible docking is an access port. Furthermore, you must realize there are no "one way streets" in computers. If a signal is sent out, there must be a way for one to be recieved. Ignoring all other access ports, if the holokid expects to control the Reapers it can't just send out commands blindly. There must also be a feedback system, a way for it to monitor that the commands are recieved/carried out. And if there is a way, it can be exploited.

This is a conclusion from the (1). Catalist has no "access" so it can't be hacked. That's why that complicated selective Crucible's explosion was needed. Explosion which can affect the Catalist and the Reapers on atomic level... If Catalist will allow the explosion to affect itself of course. If the Catalist could be hacked like a computer, then there was not need in massive galactic-scale explosions. And if Crucible's explosion could affect the Catalist without its permission, then there was no need in attaching Crucible to the Citadel. So, no matter how hard you tried and how many Crucibles you built, you can do nothing to the Catalist and the Reapers, if the Catalist itself will not allow you.

(2) Deny this conclusion on the basis of faulty premise. And the energy released by the catalyst does not need to affect anything at the atomic level. In destroy, it's like an EMP, in control it's simply a massive signal update (though the case could be made that the blue wave itself already wipes out the Reaper consciousnesses and installs Shepards'- if we are to take the begining imagery of the epilogue a bit more literally), and in synthesis it affects the DNA of everything else (wouldn't call that the atomic level but it's as close as you get).
As well you can make the case that the explosions are there to effect the change as soon as possible. Updating the control signal could be done without the blue wave but it might take time to reach far-flung Reapers (similar to the rewriting the heretics were going to do in ME2- Legion tells you the timeframe and its not instantaneous).
Finally you do realize that you can't just posit that the holokid "allowed it all along"? The Crucible allows us to destroy it and all its kind. No way would it just accept this unaltered. The fact that it does means that it was altered ("You have altered the variables") ergo, it was hacked, by the Crucible. And what happened once can happen again, maybe better.

Well, I think you are still trying to view this subject as if Catalist-Shepard was a human. I believe that "organics are too small and insignificant " only meants that Catalist-Shepard will not try to resolve each and every minor (for Catalist-Shepard) problem. It will only take part in some very major events and help Shepard's friends/LI.

(3) No, organic life as a whole is meaningless and insignificant when viewed against the backdrop of the universe. All of it. There are no major organic problems vs minor organic problems any more than there are major vs minor bacteria problems. Also it's pretty "human" to irrationally care for something meaninless so if anything, Commander being an intelligence above humanity (which we both agree is the case) would not care for organics very long.

Well, actually this is not what I meant. I meant that Shepard-Catalist will be more like EDI, but in much greater scale.

(4) I don't understand this one. If we accept that EDI is alive for all intents and purposes, then she too can self-modify and her values can change over time. In fact they do change, right during the course of ME3.

So in neither EDI nor Commander's case does the argument "X is an AI and X is goverend by belief y, therefore X will always be goverend by belief y because it is not in an AI's nature to abandon beliefs". hold.

If that's not the argument you were making, I apologize. But that's what it seemed like.

(1) Basically, I'm saying that the Catalist is hardware, not software. Hardware which can be modified only on atomic level, and only with permission from this hardware. Making the Catalist separate from all possible "access ports" make sense in terms of its surviveability. No "access" means no possibilities to hack. If the Catalist could be hacked without explosions which may affect it on atomic level, then there was no point in Crucible-Bomb and Galactic-Scale AOE blast.

(2) I think that (1) answers this one. I believe that Catalist Control Signals can't be modified.

(3) Well, I still think you are trying to view this matter from organic point of view. Shepard-Catalist is an AI with unlimited processing power and Shepard's preferences. If Shepard-Catalist's only preference was to observe a star, it will do it forever. So, I believe it will care about Galactic Civilization no matter how minor it is compared to the Reapers. It will also care about Shepard's friends/LI and can actually find new friends while resolving some major problems.

(4) Replace EDI's modifiable software mind with unmodifiable hardware mind, enlarge it to the scale of the Reapers, and you will get basic description of a Catalist. You might ask how the original Catalist was created - the answer is: the same way as Shepard-Catalist - burned into the hardware by an explosion, which affects the hardware on atomic level. The difference was that original Catalist was burned into the blank template and so needed no permission. And Shepard needed original Catalist's permission to burn her mind into the hardware using Crucible's explosion.

[Seival]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Seival wrote...
That's why I believe that even Crucible's explosions can't affect the Catalist without its permission

What? No, they didn't finish the Crucible, hence they weren't able to hack the holokid/Reapers.

If a bunch of us have been working on a program to hack your computer but we never got around to finishing it, you cannot claim that your computer is unhackable. Because if someone does finish it and does hack your computer with it, you would be proven wrong.

I meant that if such explosions could affect the Catalist without its permission, then some previous Cycles could already defeat the Reapers. They didn't really needed the Crucible for that. They could use something similar but smaller, built in form of mines, bombs and missiles. But that didn't happen. Crucible+Catalist is the only solution. Not just Crucible+Citadel, but Crucible+Catalist - i.e. Crucible and the Catalist's permission... This is how I see it.

Modifié par Seival, 13 juillet 2012 - 09:47 .

[CrutchCricket]

Seival wrote...
(1) Basically, I'm saying that the Catalist is hardware, not software. Hardware which can be modified only on atomic level, and only with permission from this hardware. Making the Catalist separate from all possible "access ports" make sense in terms of its surviveability. No "access" means no possibilities to hack. If the Catalist could be hacked without explosions which may affect it on atomic level, then there was no point in Crucible-Bomb and Galactic-Scale AOE blast.

(2) I think that (1) answers this one. I believe that Catalist Control Signals can't be modified.

Ok, leaving aside the exact nature of the holokid, you have to realize that what you're saying about permissions makes no sense. Before the Crucible docked there is no way the holokid would consent to be destroyed or replaced. Agree? Obviously this is the case because if it were destroyed or replaced it would not be able to solve the problem it keeps going on about. Agree?

The Crucible docks and the holokid is now willing to be destroyed or replaced. Conclusion? The Crucible modified the holokid. No explosions necessary, no atom rearranging required. It modified it by changing variables that allow it to come to a different conclusion (just like the geth. Heretics=math error.)

I think this is sufficient to disprove your point without going into what a "hardware AI" is, though I will say that there is nothing in the game that indicates this and even were it to make sense, it would be headcanon.  We can't really argue headcanon.

(3) Well, I still think you are trying to view this matter from organic point of view. Shepard-Catalist is an AI with unlimited processing power and Shepard's preferences. If Shepard-Catalist's only preference was to observe a star, it will do it forever. So, I believe it will care about Galactic Civilization no matter how minor it is compared to the Reapers. It will also care about Shepard's friends/LI and can actually find new friends while resolving some major problems.

No it wouldn't. This is what I have been saying about AIs and self-modification. AIs can self modify. You've seen EDI do it. Commander can do it as well. Really, it has nothing to do with organic or artificial intelligence, but rather a function of intelligence itself. Any intelligence can change its priorities, even the most non-sentient animalistic one (and that change is far more mechanical). You're saying I'm making it too organic yet you deny it one of the fundamental functions of intelligence, which is to gather new information and reach conclusions based on that information. That's really what "changing your mind" means. And everything that is said to be intelligent does this on a regular basis.

[CrutchCricket]

Seival wrote...
I meant that if such explosions could affect the Catalist without its permission, then some previous Cycles could already defeat the Reapers. They didn't really needed the Crucible for that. They could use something similar but smaller, built in form of mines, bombs and missiles. But that didn't happen. Crucible+Catalist is the only solution. Not just Crucible+Citadel, but Crucible+Catalist - i.e. Crucible and the Catalist's permission... This is how I see it.

The explosions aren't the cause of the holokid's change, the Crucible itself is. The explosions are the effect of this change and of Shepard's choice.

Previous cycles never finished the Crucible, thus could not dock it and hack the holokid. It has nothing to do with explosions.

[Icharas]

@Seival: I just find it hilarious how you insist on changes on atomic level
I've just read your whole discussion again and as really makes no sense at all I am led to believe you might be using this phrase unintentional... You might want to put it into google translate and check it in your language. It basically means a change below even molecular level... and reprogramming a computer has nothing to do with that.

Anyway, I'm off to vacation, so I won't be reading your next comment. See ya.

[Seival]

Icharas wrote...

@Seival: I just find it hilarious how you insist on changes on atomic level
I've just read your whole discussion again and as really makes no sense at all I am led to believe you might be using this phrase unintentional... You might want to put it into google translate and check it in your language. It basically means a change below even molecular level... and reprogramming a computer has nothing to do with that.

Anyway, I'm off to vacation, so I won't be reading your next comment. See ya.

Well, you can see my comment after you will return. And I'm not insisting actually. This is just how I see it  

So, programming in the way we used to know it nowdays is not made on atomic level of course. But we are talking about a "computer" made by far more advanced technologies, so modern computer analogy was really out of place here.

Let me explain my thoughts a little more:
...Let's say we have a "Computer" with no hard drive, no regular network connection ports, and inaccessible RAM.
...This "Computer" has protected hull, which you can't open.
...This "Computer" has internal "DVD Drive" with "DVD Disc" inside it.
...This "DVD Disk" is not rewritable.
...You can't install any software on this "Computer", because it has no hard drive, and its "RAM" is inaccessible.
..."Compurter's OS" is located on the "DVD Disk".
..."Computer's RAM" is used as additional visual/sound data storage.

And now, lets say there is a network consisting of millions of such "Compures":
...All "Compures" have the same "DVD Disc" with "Compurter's OS" inside them.
...There is no "Main Brain" who gives orders to other "Computers", each "Computer" operates on its own.
...All new visual/sound data is stored in "Computer's RAM".
..."Computers" share all new visual/sound data via "WiFi", which you can't access.

Finally, let's say that:
...Each "Computer" is a Reaper's brain (the Citadel also contains the same brain).
..."DVD Disc" is the Catalist.
..."Computer's RAM" is the storage of all new Shepard-Catalist's memories.
..."Computer's OS" is Shepard's personality and all her memories down to the moment when she became the Catalist, and a little farther till the moment when "DVD Disk" reconstruction was 100% complete.

This system can't be hacked. You can't affect it in any way. You can only reconstruct the "DVD Disc" on atomic level to change the "Computer's OS". And this reconstruction will only be possible if the Catalist opens the "Computer's" hull and removes "DVD Disc" for you.

Modifié par Seival, 14 juillet 2012 - 02:49 .

[Seival]

@CrutchCricket

By the way, I think my previous post is also a good answer to your thoughts...

...I believe that victory over the original Catalist was not about constructing and connecting the Crucible. It was about convincing the original Catalsit that it was wrong about its crazy "solution". Shepard showed the original Catalist that there is another way, and that she deserves to choose the future of the galaxy. Crucible was a tool to make this future possible, but only with original Catalist's permission.

...Which also means that noone and nothing will be able to harm Shepard-Catalist in any way.

[Seival]

Chewin3 wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...
I have problem with it.

You often do, dear Mesina.

Hawke_12 wrote...
Anyway, can you give your view on Control ending? I'd love to hear your opinion on it.

Doubt there's much to say that haven't already been said, but sure.

It's easier to describe it by braking down the other two endings, and let me start by saying that out of all the endings, I find Control to be the least crappy one. This is b/c of the simple reasons that e.g. what the other option imposes.

Destroy establishes a false dichotomy for the series. ME was never about organics vs synthetics, but rather sentience vs non-sentience. The whole point of the Geth in the first place was that A.Is can be as sapient as humans. Yet Shepard can easily agree with the Catalyst in basically separating the universe between synthetics and organics, and wiping out the former. Plus Shepard seems to live even though the Catalyst stated he / she will die. Whether it is a big headed liar, well that is debatable.

Synthesis, is obviously a pile of garbage, and that's not only because of space magic and / or making no sense in the first place with the synthesizing of the DNA. The entire point of the ME series is that diversity is a good thing, and even is the sole reason why humanity has been so special in the first place and are better than every other race. Yet ultimately the Synthesis ending disgustingly makes it that being all the same with no diversity is actually better, and is the key to a better universe.

And ultimately the Control ending. The major concern with this is actually Shepard himself / herself acting as a total fool in every conversation with TIM, with him / her dismissing everything TIM says on the Control subject. Not once can Shepard be able to agree or even investigate how TIM would do it and what would he do after accomplishing is goal. There is no middle ground, and Shepard only believes that Destroy is the only option. And when suddenly Shepard meets the Catalyst, he / she changes his / her mind, and Shepard always being the short sighted idiot throughout the games, I don't personally feel he / she is wise enough to take on that responsibility.

And let's not forget the Prothean AI, who says that the Reapers used and enslaved those who thought they can be controlled. And yet Shepard can agree with control just like that. Not to mention what Sovereign said in ME1: "We are each a nation, independent and free of all weakness". Wuut?

Anyway, my impression on the different endings.

I can understand your concerns, and I believe they were just provoked by some misunderstanding. Did you try EC, or you've only seen original endings? Original ones were really hard to understand. While EC explains almost everything pretty clear.

[Seival]

@R3MUS

Interestingly painted banner you have... I mean, it fits the signature field completely. And it perfectly centered. I wander if all 300x25 pictures fit signature field like that...

...I should consider creating new Control Support banners with this size

[CrutchCricket]

Seival wrote...

@CrutchCricket

By the way, I think my previous post is also a good answer to your thoughts...

...I believe that victory over the original Catalist was not about constructing and connecting the Crucible. It was about convincing the original Catalsit that it was wrong about its crazy "solution". Shepard showed the original Catalist that there is another way, and that she deserves to choose the future of the galaxy. Crucible was a tool to make this future possible, but only with original Catalist's permission.

...Which also means that noone and nothing will be able to harm Shepard-Catalist in any way.

You didn't convince it of anything. The only reason it talked to you at all is because you docked the Crucible, therefore modifying its variables.

And again, there is nothing ingame about inaccessible atomic RAM or what have you. And even if there was there is no computational device, no matter how advanced that is entirely sealed. If it sends and recieves data into the real world, the methods it uses to do that can be exploited and it can thus be manipulated.

[Seival]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Seival wrote...

@CrutchCricket

By the way, I think my previous post is also a good answer to your thoughts...

...I believe that victory over the original Catalist was not about constructing and connecting the Crucible. It was about convincing the original Catalsit that it was wrong about its crazy "solution". Shepard showed the original Catalist that there is another way, and that she deserves to choose the future of the galaxy. Crucible was a tool to make this future possible, but only with original Catalist's permission.

...Which also means that noone and nothing will be able to harm Shepard-Catalist in any way.

You didn't convince it of anything. The only reason it talked to you at all is because you docked the Crucible, therefore modifying its variables.

And again, there is nothing ingame about inaccessible atomic RAM or what have you. And even if there was there is no computational device, no matter how advanced that is entirely sealed. If it sends and recieves data into the real world, the methods it uses to do that can be exploited and it can thus be manipulated.

Disagree. The original Catalist could left Shepard to die near the Anderson. Instead it helped her. Moreover, the original Catalist admitted that its "solution" doesn't work anymore, and explained Shepard what are the "new possibilities" and how Shepard can trigger them. The original Catalist helped Shepard willingly. That's why I believe Shepard's victory was about convincing the original Catalist that it was wrong. And that's why I believe nothing could be done without the Catalist's permission. Even if they managed to trigger Crucible's explosion from outside.

Back to my "Computer" analogy... As I said, I believe that Shepard's personality and all her memories till the transformation was 100% complete are stored on "DVD Disc", which is not rewriteable. The "Computer's OS" can't be changed in any regular way. There are no mechanisms for that. And the only external mechanism which can do that is a bomb, which explosion is able to reconstruct "DVD Disc" on atomic level (if the explosion was directed properly and the Catalist allowed the explosion to affect it). The only network information that "Computers" share are new visuals/sounds (i.e. new memories) which stored inside "RAM". The only thing you can possibly do to sabotage this is to give some distant Reaper ships a false visual/sound information about some event, which can be easily debunked once these distant ships come to investigate. So, there is just no way to hack the system. The Catalist may be replaced only with its own permission...




...Anyway, its good to see different view points on Control. I respect your opinion, but I like my version more, because it gives Shepard-Catalist unlimited survivability. If your human-Shepard was a person who never gives up, then it will be impossible for Shepard-Catalist to surrender willingly. Its AI code will never allow that. And according to my thoughts, even Shepard-Catalist is unable to modify this code...

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

So what is this thread take on the moment that the camera focuses on the old catalyst when it looks on as Shepard is taking assuming direct control?

For those that want a screenshot:
http://desmond.image...jpg&res=landing

Some say that he smiles (if so, its a really subtle smile) because the Reapers will survive, but in the EC we know that the Catalyst does not approve of control. My own take on it is that since a lot of my Shepard's motivation to pick control was to spare the Geth, the Catalyst realises this and looks on as a single organic is damning himself in order to stop the Reapers without killing anyone else, even though those might be synthethics.

In destroy, the Catalyst dies shaking his head, believing himself to be right as he sees Shepard willfully destroy all synthethic life to stop the Reapers. In synthesis, his viewpoints are vindicated and justified. In control however, the Catalyst spends his last moments perhaps realising just how bloody wrong he is.

But thats my own take on it, feel free to disagree with me or whatever.

[Ageless Face]

Actually I like this idea. I don't really pay attention to the catalyst in that moment, since I can barely understand his expression (and his eyes are creepy) but I think from now on I think I'll take your interpetation, Lizardviking. If you don't mind