4520 réponses à ce sujet

[estebanus]

TAlTAl wrote...

so saren was right

Saren? No. Never.

[DirtyPhoenix]

TAlTAl wrote...

so saren was right

[Seival]

pirate1802 wrote...

Seival wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

HagarIshay wrote...

So tell me what do you think: Is Shepard turning into an AI-god completely awesome and well deserved or do you see it as a fate worse than death?

On some level I find it awesome that Shepard has ascended to godhood, if you may. Its a fate well-deserved for Shepard. But its also a reinder of what my Shepard was, and what she's become. She is no longer the thing she was, she could no longer be reunited with Liara  and I find it very sad indeed.

By the way. I think that Shepard-Catalist may become to Liara something like grey box to Kasumi. And considering the fact that the Catalist is not just a record, but the most advanced AI in the galaxy, Liara and Shepard-Catalist may at least become very good friends. Liara may consider Shepard-Catalist as... Shepard's doughter/son I believe.

O.o Liarais lover suddenly became her son/daughter. Implications... unpleasant.
Anyway I like to believe there is a real chance that Shepard in synthesis, can reunite with his/her LI. In synthesis you see Kasumi reunited with Keiji, who has come "alive" as result of synthesis. Maybe Shepard can store his/her memories in something like the memory shard, or Liara's project and similarly come "alive"

Well, the new Catalist has Shepard's way of thinking, and memories, but it's not the same Shepard. It's only the same Person. So, I think it's more correct to say "Shepard gave birth to the new Catalist" rather than "Shepard became the new Catalist". Which means LI may indeed consider the new Catalist as the Shepard's doughter/son. Which means they can really become good friends.

[Seival]

HagarIshay wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

O.o Liarais lover suddenly became her son/daughter. Implications... unpleasant.
Anyway I like to believe there is a real chance that Shepard in synthesis, can reunite with his/her LI. In synthesis you see Kasumi reunited with Keiji, who has come "alive" as result of synthesis. Maybe Shepard can store his/her memories in something like the memory shard, or Liara's project and similarly come "alive"

I'm sure you will be able to create a Shepard clone in synthesis. All you need is a piece of DNA. Assuming synthesis will only go for DNA in living organics. Otherwise, I doubt Shepard will be able to come back, since the DNA will be changed. Though synthesis DOES use Shepard's DNA on everyone in the galaxy, so it might be possible it's exactly the same DNA as it was before.

As for Liara, I doubt AI Shep will be able to communicate with her. In fact, I doubt AI Shep will be able to communicate with anyone other than EDI, since s/he'll have more in common with her than with any other organic. Even than, it'll be for a short amount of time, since AI Shep and the reapers will probably advance further than they already are, s/he will be way out of EDI or any other AI's league, if it wasn't already too much for them to understand.

Kind of cool actually. Shepard will not be a thing you can comprehend... 

The Catilist is able to communicate with people actually. It communicated with Shepard through Nazara, Harbinger, and that random Destroyer on Rannoch. It also communicated with Shepard mentally in the very end. Even hasks (ME2 Assuming Direct Control) and holograms (ME2 Arrival) can be used for that. So I'm sure Shepard-Catalist will find the ways to communicate with people when needed. And I'm pretty sure it will be needed (Goverments, LI, Friends).

[DirtyPhoenix]

Yes, I'd LOVE to see Shepard using Harbinger to communicate

[Seival]

pirate1802 wrote...

Yes, I'd LOVE to see Shepard using Harbinger to communicate

[estebanus]

Seival wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Yes, I'd LOVE to see Shepard using Harbinger to communicate

Yeah, I can only imagine how that would look like when Shepard talks to his/her LI.

HUMAN/ASARI/TURIAN/QUARIAN. YOU HAVE FAILED IN PLEASING ME. WE WILL FIND ANOTHER WAY. THIS RELATIONSHIP IS IRRELEVANT. RELEASING CONTROL.

[Seival]

estebanus wrote...

Seival wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Yes, I'd LOVE to see Shepard using Harbinger to communicate

Yeah, I can only imagine how that would look like when Shepard talks to his/her LI.

HUMAN/ASARI/TURIAN/QUARIAN. YOU HAVE FAILED IN PLEASING ME. WE WILL FIND ANOTHER WAY. THIS RELATIONSHIP IS IRRELEVANT. RELEASING CONTROL.

The most advanced AI with Commander Shepard Personality is the most sane and wise creature ever existed (at least if we are talking about Paragon Shepard).

And you are talking about some mindless teenager. Not even AI-teenager

[Ericus]

Seival wrote...

Well, the new Catalist has Shepard's way of thinking, and memories, but it's not the same Shepard. It's only the same Person. So, I think it's more correct to say "Shepard gave birth to the new Catalist" rather than "Shepard became the new Catalist". Which means LI may indeed consider the new Catalist as the Shepard's doughter/son. Which means they can really become good friends.

My assumption is that it is the same Shepard - an ascended version of Shepard's 'life essense', or whatever term you prefer. I'm basing this on how Shepard refers to him/herself throughout the Control dialogue.  Comments like "the man I was", which implies a direct continuity from his past organic state to his new 'expanded' state.  I don't believe that we're listening to a brand new AI that's only patterned on Shepard's mind.

[Seival]

Ericus wrote...

Seival wrote...

Well, the new Catalist has Shepard's way of thinking, and memories, but it's not the same Shepard. It's only the same Person. So, I think it's more correct to say "Shepard gave birth to the new Catalist" rather than "Shepard became the new Catalist". Which means LI may indeed consider the new Catalist as the Shepard's doughter/son. Which means they can really become good friends.

My assumption is that it is the same Shepard - an ascended version of Shepard's 'life essense', or whatever term you prefer. I'm basing this on how Shepard refers to him/herself throughout the Control dialogue.  Comments like "the man I was", which implies a direct continuity from his past organic state to his new 'expanded' state.  I don't believe that we're listening to a brand new AI that's only patterned on Shepard's mind.

Well, in this case Catalist-Shepard and her/his LI can actually reunite.

...But, my opinion is that Shepard-Catalist is the Shepard's offspring, which has Shepard's way of thinking and all her memories.

[obZen DF]

It would be cool if Shepard's LI came to the spot where you talk with the Catalyst and now it's a ghost taking on Shepard's form. So, basically it's the same Shepard. But not organic. You have Shepard's persona, and his body in ghost form.

Liara: "Shepard!" *tries to hug the Catalyst* and falls.

[DirtyPhoenix]

It would be good if Bioware releases DLCs that lets us play for a while in the worlds of our choosing. Maybe as Liara or whoever your LI is. I don't even want specific missions, just wander and see how your actions molded the galaxy. Bio has said no post-end DLC is planned but I'd pay for it! Bioware take note :/

[Seival]

obZen DF wrote...

It would be cool if Shepard's LI came to the spot where you talk with the Catalyst and now it's a ghost taking on Shepard's form. So, basically it's the same Shepard. But not organic. You have Shepard's persona, and his body in ghost form.

Liara: "Shepard!" *tries to hug the Catalyst* and falls.

Well, LI can come to that spot only in a dream. That clearly was ethereal location.

Anyway, I think Catalist-Shepard will meet LI, friends, and leaders of all goverments to explain what happened (to avoid panic). And of cause I think that Shepard-Catalist will talk to LI and each friend privatly.

In my opinion, Shepard-Catalist and LI can't reunite. But they can become really good friends, like good relatives.

[Seival]

pirate1802 wrote...

It would be good if Bioware releases DLCs that lets us play for a while in the worlds of our choosing. Maybe as Liara or whoever your LI is. I don't even want specific missions, just wander and see how your actions molded the galaxy. Bio has said no post-end DLC is planned but I'd pay for it! Bioware take note :/

Hmm... Play as LI through some missions to see the short-terms consequences of Shepard's choice? In this case I'll play Liara, meet with Catalist-Shepard, and will be able to talk to it. And its replies in the dialogue will depend on who was the Shepard, Paragon or Renegade...

...Please BioWare, make this happen

Modifié par Seival, 30 juillet 2012 - 02:36 .

[DirtyPhoenix]

I'd go and talk to synthesized Geth and maskless Quarians!

[CrutchCricket]

Err... right.

On Indoctrination: I see no reason why it couldn't be used beneficially. It's a signal from the Reapers (with some nanotech I'm assuming, thrown in). And signals can be turned on or off as needed. Really it seems you have two main types. One is the conscious slave/sleeper agent type where you're unchanged physically but still work for the Reapers. Example: Benezia, Rana Thanoptis, Amanda Kenson. This type of indoctrination seems to work subconsciously as subjects express willingness to work with Reapers and Reaper goals as their own. In this case the signal may actually be performing inception, planting ideas in the subconscious that the subjects develop, seemingly as their own.
The second type is closer  to huskification, where individuality and intelligence is lost and you're on your way to huskhood. Example: Saren near the end, TIM near the end and Grayson from the novels. The latter is a particularly good example as we are shown what is happening from his perspective. In this case the Reapers override your will and you simply become a puppet as the nanites change your body, replacing more and more with tech.

How both these stages could be used beneficially in the case of mental instability is obvious. Sleeper type or "inceptive indoctrination" as I'll call it would probably be the most useful as it would seem the patient just "gets better". Access to this type of treatment would make psychotherapy and similar forms of counseling obsolete.
For more extreme cases like schizophrenia and physical brain damage "huskification" indoctrination could be used to rewire the brain, just enough to circumvent or fix the damage. The brain does a lot of this naturally but it's not always 100%.

Of course "could" does not mean "will". Commander can cure just about every mental illness in the galaxy. But it likely won't care to.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 30 juillet 2012 - 03:26 .

[Seival]

pirate1802 wrote...

I'd go and talk to synthesized Geth and maskless Quarians!

...And Destroyers will be able to see what have they done to EDI and Geth.

...And Refusers will not be able to start the DLC with their indecisive playthrough.

...And the "IT" will be debunked officialy once and for all.



I think it will be great if BioWare will make this LI Protagonist DLC. But not soon. I think they have to wait till some people will finally calm down.

[DirtyPhoenix]

Seival wrote...
...And Refusers will not be able to start the DLC with their indecisive playthrough.

Lmfao! That'd be golden. They'd get a critical ission failure screen right at the beginning. Seriously, though if such DLC is ever made, refusers would watch, through their LI's eyes the destruction of the entire galaxy. Planets dying one by one. Your friends dying and Normandy being destroyed. Imagine the ****storm!:devil:

[Seival]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Err... right.

On Indoctrination: I see no reason why it couldn't be used beneficially. It's a signal from the Reapers (with some nanotech I'm assuming, thrown in). And signals can be turned on or off as needed. Really it seems you have two main types. One is the conscious slave/sleeper agent type where you're unchanged physically but still work for the Reapers. Example: Benezia, Rana Thanoptis, Amanda Kenson. This type of indoctrination seems to work subconsciously as subjects express willingness to work with Reapers and Reaper goals as their own. In this case the signal may actually be performing inception, planting ideas in the subconscious that the subjects develop, seemingly as their own.
The second type is closer  to huskification, where individuality and intelligence is lost and you're on your way to huskhood. Example: Saren near the end, TIM near the end and Grayson from the novels. The latter is a particularly good example as we are shown what is happening from his perspective. In this case the Reapers override your will and you simply become a puppet as the nanites change your body, replacing more and more with tech.

How both these stages could be used beneficially in the case of mental instability is obvious. Sleeper type or "inceptive indoctrination" as I'll call it would probably be the most useful as it would seem the patient just "gets better". Access to this type of treatment would make psychotherapy and similar forms of counseling obsolete.
For more extreme cases like schizophrenia and physical brain damage "huskification" indoctrination could be used to rewire the brain, just enough to circumvent or fix the damage. The brain does a lot of this naturally but it's not always 100%.

Of course "could" does not mean "will". Commander can cure just about every mental illness in the galaxy. But it likely won't care to.

I think that Catalist-Shepard will let Galactic Civilization to solve most "minor" problems on their own. But in some particular cases it may use even indoctrination mechanics for helping (Paragon) or punishing (Renegade) some people.

[Seival]

pirate1802 wrote...

Seival wrote...
...And Refusers will not be able to start the DLC with their indecisive playthrough.

Lmfao! That'd be golden. They'd get a critical ission failure screen right at the beginning. Seriously, though if such DLC is ever made, refusers would watch, through their LI's eyes the destruction of the entire galaxy. Planets dying one by one. Your friends dying and Normandy being destroyed. Imagine the ****storm!:devil:

+1

...And it will be really sad in fact. But it will teach the refusers a lesson.

[Ageless Face]

Seival wrote...
The Catilist is able to communicate with people actually. It communicated with Shepard through Nazara, Harbinger, and that random Destroyer on Rannoch. It also communicated with Shepard mentally in the very end. Even hasks (ME2 Assuming Direct Control) and holograms (ME2 Arrival) can be used for that. So I'm sure Shepard-Catalist will find the ways to communicate with people when needed. And I'm pretty sure it will be needed (Goverments, LI, Friends).

I'm not talking about this kind of communication. It's more accurate to say AI Shep and the reapers will be able to communicate with the society on a more basic level. But not personal, like I'm gussing you'd like. I just doubt they'll be able to understand each other. On both sides actually. I mean c'mon, Reapers have been sticking organic genetic material to themselves for who knows how long, and still it seems like they don't understand organic mind, probably never will. Same goes for organics. I doubt organics will ever be to understand Reapers. More so if the Reaper's mind will always advance itself further. Organics can barely even get along with synthetics, and the only time they managed to do that was with Shepard's reputation points. So do you think they'll be able to live happily ever after with Reapers (unless you choose synthesis, of course. Which there it seems the organic brain have come into a new understanding, as well as synthetic and Reaper minds)?

That is actually why I'll try to cut contact with the society as much as possible. The Reapers will still help and all that, but from afar. Advancing the society without being part of it.

Modifié par HagarIshay, 30 juillet 2012 - 05:14 .

[Hadeedak]

I prefer a slightly more... Well, machiney view of the new Catalyst. I kind of figure it's the operating parameters for Reapers -- almost their moral code, their definition of right and wrong. The Catalyst may be fairly limited in what it can actually do. But what it allows and views as acceptable Reaper operation and function is now derived from a certain dead Spectre's memories.

But mine's a bit depressing.

And I tend to think Esperanza Shepard's Catalyst would have the Reapers help rebuild, then have them retreat to the edges of the galaxy, where they'd continue archiving information about organics, this time through observation and occasionally obtaining samples of genetic material by nonlethal means. I doubt they'd do much communicating, and if they do any, probably only with rachni and geth. They may try to reverse engineer some of the lost species eventually.

Which would be a whole 'nother ride for the galaxy. But it might make Javik happy.

[DirtyPhoenix]

HagarIshay wrote...

That is actually why I'll try to cut contact with the society as much as possible. The Reapers will still help and all that, but from afar. Advancing the society without being part of it.

Thats true. Meddling in ordinary mortal's lives more and more spells trouble! It would set you on a slippery slope that won't end well.

Modifié par pirate1802, 30 juillet 2012 - 05:59 .

[Ageless Face]

Hadeedak wrote...

I prefer a slightly more... Well, machiney view of the new Catalyst. I kind of figure it's the operating parameters for Reapers -- almost their moral code, their definition of right and wrong. The Catalyst may be fairly limited in what it can actually do. But what it allows and views as acceptable Reaper operation and function is now derived from a certain dead Spectre's memories.

^ basically how I see it. The catalyst, or AI Shep, are what gives the reapers their purpose. I imagine they'll still have their own brain (Harbinger, Sovergien and Rannoch reaper all have a different personallity obviously), but they all act on certain codes. I wouldn't call it moral, since I don't think they even have it, but they have certain limits to what they can or can't do. Their controller is the one who decides it (Though I doubt the original catalyst set the codes himself. His creators probably did that).

That is also why I think it'll be even harder for organics to understand the Reapers. AI Shep may has organic memories which s/he is basing themselves upon, but his/her codes will not be anywhere near organic. Notice how many people are applying organic morals and values on AI Shep, when in truth, there is nothing organic about him/her anymore. We'll always try to give him/her, because that's all we know. Now think that every Reaper is basing itself on this codes. Yep, we'll never reach an understanding easily, esspecially if this codes will change over time, with AI Shep's changes. And if organics will eventually reach an understanding, it'll be with something similar to synthesis. Without it, it'll take a VERY long time with very advanced technology, if at all. I doubt Reapers will ever gain an understanding of organics, because of the variety.

Modifié par HagarIshay, 30 juillet 2012 - 06:05 .

[Ericus]

HagarIshay wrote...

Hadeedak wrote...

I prefer a slightly more... Well, machiney view of the new Catalyst. I kind of figure it's the operating parameters for Reapers -- almost their moral code, their definition of right and wrong. The Catalyst may be fairly limited in what it can actually do. But what it allows and views as acceptable Reaper operation and function is now derived from a certain dead Spectre's memories.

^ basically how I see it. The catalyst, or AI Shep, are what gives the reapers their purpose. I imagine they'll still have their own brain (Harbinger, Sovergien and Rannoch reaper all have a different personallity obviously), but they all act on certain codes. I wouldn't call it moral, since I don't think they even have it, but they have certain limits to what they can or can't do. Their controller is the one who decides it (Though I doubt the original catalyst set the codes himself. His creators probably did that).

That is also why I think it'll be even harder for organics to understand the Reapers. AI Shep may has organic memories which s/he is basing themselves upon, but his/her codes will not be anywhere near organic. Notice how many people are applying organic morals and values on AI Shep, when in truth, there is nothing organic about him/her anymore. We'll always try to give him/her, because that's all we know. Now think that every Reaper is basing itself on this codes. Yep, we'll never reach an understanding easily, esspecially if this codes will change over time, with AI Shep's changes. And if organics will eventually reach an understanding, it'll be with something similar to synthesis. Without it, it'll take a VERY long time with very advanced technology, if at all. I doubt Reapers will ever gain an understanding of organics, because of the variety.

This is the reason I think Control is far preferable to Synthesis.  In Synthesis, everyone is altered to share the same sort of understanding (of each other, the universe, etc...).  But that inherently means that we've lost diversity.  In the long run that can only lead to stagnation of the entire galactic society.

With Control, each group will have to continue to evolve down their own paths.  Some of them may find a way to understand the Reapers, and some won't.  But they'll all be distinct, and free to evolve their own ways.  As Legion said, they'll be able to self-determinate.

As to whether Catalyst-Shepard is or isn't the original Shepard, I think either interpretation is valid.  Heck, even Shepard in ME3 said he wasn't sure if he was really the same Shepard as ME1.  It's probably something we'll never be able to answer, so we just need to rely on gut instinct.  What is important is the combination of Paragon and/or Renegade thinking that Catalyst-Shepard now posesses.