4520 réponses à ce sujet

[Ageless Face]

Ericus wrote...
This is the reason I think Control is far preferable to Synthesis.  In Synthesis, everyone is altered to share the same sort of understanding (of each other, the universe, etc...).  But that inherently means that we've lost diversity.  In the long run that can only lead to stagnation of the entire galactic society.

With Control, each group will have to continue to evolve down their own paths.  Some of them may find a way to understand the Reapers, and some won't.  But they'll all be distinct, and free to evolve their own ways.  As Legion said, they'll be able to self-determinate.

As to whether Catalyst-Shepard is or isn't the original Shepard, I think either interpretation is valid.  Heck, even Shepard in ME3 said he wasn't sure if he was really the same Shepard as ME1.  It's probably something we'll never be able to answer, so we just need to rely on gut instinct.  What is important is the combination of Paragon and/or Renegade thinking that Catalyst-Shepard now posesses.

I actually find it appealing about synthesis. There will always be diversity, no matter what. People still think differently than each other. Gaining an understanding about someone else's mind does not mean you are like him. Organics (more or less) understand each other's morals. But morality is still subjective, it's rare that someone is having the exact same values as someone else, If it happens at all. And knowlage is always good. So an understanding of another being's mind is definitely not a problem in my books. 

[incinerator950]

Hey, A positive person!

[TJBartlemus]

Only thing that disturbs me about this thread is the fact that control is associated with Paragon mainly, which is totally incorrect. 1-The whole point of choosing control is that you become a hypocrite for killing TIM cause he wanted to control, and then 5 minutes later the player chooses it. That seems more like a renegade choice. 2- Paragon has always fought TIM in ME2 and Renegade helped TIM. So why would this be different in ME3? 3- The lights around the choices are wrong. The Catalyst lies to you and tries to make you chose the wrong choice whether it is let the Reapers live or continue their plans. (literalist or not) Paragons have been known to fight for what Shepard believes in and Control most of the game was not what s/he was fighting for. Destroy was.

[TJBartlemus]

HagarIshay wrote...

I actually find it appealing about synthesis. There will always be diversity, no matter what. People still think differently than each other. Gaining an understanding about someone else's mind does not mean you are like him. Organics (more or less) understand each other's morals. But morality is still subjective, it's rare that someone is having the exact same values as someone else, If it happens at all. And knowlage is always good. So an understanding of another being's mind is definitely not a problem in my books. 

Problem I have with Synthesis is that it kills culture. There was even a big anti-synthesis speech in ME2 by Mordin. And if one character has a problem with it, why wouldn't more? (watch whole video to understand...)

Modifié par TJBartlemus, 30 juillet 2012 - 06:47 .

[Ageless Face]

TJBartlemus wrote...

Only thing that disturbs me about this thread is the fact that control is associated with Paragon mainly, which is totally incorrect.
1-The whole point of choosing control is that you become a hypocrite for killing TIM cause he wanted to control, and then 5 minutes later the player chooses it. That seems more like a renegade choice.
2- Paragon has always fought TIM in ME2 and Renegade helped TIM. So why would this be different in ME3?
3- The lights around the choices are wrong. The Catalyst lies to you and tries to make you chose the wrong choice whether it is let the Reapers live or continue their plans. (literalist or not) Paragons have been known to fight for what Shepard believes in and Control most of the game was not what s/he was fighting for. Destroy was.

1. Paragons can also be hypocrites.

2.  Because what TIM wants and what paragon Shepard wants from control are totally different things?

3. Both paragon and renegade Shepards wanted to destroy the reapers up until they reached the catalyst. Then both can do whatever they want. And catalyst doesn't lie to you. Unless you believe the IT, of course.

This is irrevelent anyway. Control can be both renegade and paragon, depends on your morality points. Final choices aren't about paragon/renegade (esppecially since you have green now). Choose what you want, no matter the color of your choice. 

[Ranger Jack Walker]

Control isn't paragon. It's both.

And you don't have to kill Illusive Man because he wanted control. I was trying my best to agree with him but tell him that he couldn't do it because he was indoctrinated so he should leave it to me but alas, the closest thing provided by the dialogues available "just go ahead and do it if you're so sure you can control them"

They didn't provide any option to agree with him on some level.

I killed him because he was trying to kill me and Anderson not because he wanted to contrl the reapers.

[Ageless Face]

TJBartlemus wrote...
Problem I have with Synthesis is that it kills culture. There was even a big anti-synthesis speech in ME2 by Mordin. And if one character has a problem with it, why wouldn't more? (watch whole video to understand...)

The collecotors are Prothean husks. Mindless. Of course they won't have culture!

The society in synthesis, however, are not mindless husks. They think, they know, they feel.

They have culture.

[incinerator950]

HagarIshay wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

Only thing that disturbs me about this thread is the fact that control is associated with Paragon mainly, which is totally incorrect.
1-The whole point of choosing control is that you become a hypocrite for killing TIM cause he wanted to control, and then 5 minutes later the player chooses it. That seems more like a renegade choice.
2- Paragon has always fought TIM in ME2 and Renegade helped TIM. So why would this be different in ME3?
3- The lights around the choices are wrong. The Catalyst lies to you and tries to make you chose the wrong choice whether it is let the Reapers live or continue their plans. (literalist or not) Paragons have been known to fight for what Shepard believes in and Control most of the game was not what s/he was fighting for. Destroy was.

1. Paragons can also be hypocrites.

2.  Because what TIM wants and what paragon Shepard wants from control are totally different things?

3. Both paragon and renegade Shepards wanted to destroy the reapers up until they reached the catalyst. Then both can do whatever they want. And catalyst doesn't lie to you. Unless you believe the IT, of course.

[CrutchCricket]

TJBartlemus wrote...

Only thing that disturbs me about this thread is the fact that control is associated with Paragon mainly, which is totally incorrect. 1-The whole point of choosing control is that you become a hypocrite for killing TIM cause he wanted to control, and then 5 minutes later the player chooses it. That seems more like a renegade choice. 2- Paragon has always fought TIM in ME2 and Renegade helped TIM. So why would this be different in ME3? 3- The lights around the choices are wrong. The Catalyst lies to you and tries to make you chose the wrong choice whether it is let the Reapers live or continue their plans. (literalist or not) Paragons have been known to fight for what Shepard believes in and Control most of the game was not what s/he was fighting for. Destroy was.

It's called changing your mind or more technically, arriving at a different conclusion after being presented with new information. Only a fool fixates on one theory and ignores anything to the contrary.

Besides it was never about rejecting the idea of control. Rather, there was no evidence that it could be done (and plenty that it couldn't).

[DirtyPhoenix]

If suddenly by some pure magic I gain an understanding of what that dog is trying to tell me, or how it thinks, does it mean I've mentally become a dog?

I understand the motives of those who pick destroy but does that mean I'd pick destroy myself? hell no!

So I don't think understanding someone amounts to lack of diversity.
Wreav the a**hole is still an a**hole in synthesis. He raises an army if genophage is cured. So I'm not seeing any lack of diversity on their part. xD

And about culture, it will never stagnate. As our society overcomes old challenges, new challenges emerge. It will never stop. It has been going on since primitive times. Similar fears have been expressed for any futuristic tech, but most of them have turned out to be misguided.

The thing I like the most about synthesis is the future is of almost limitless possibilities. Its a bold new world. We can achieve anything and everything. We may even transcend into a new plane of existance altogather. And synthetics are finally free and totally in control of their fate, they are equals with their organic, or syntherganic brethren. They need not fear anyone anymore. Something my Shep has always strived to do.
Sue me!

Modifié par pirate1802, 30 juillet 2012 - 07:53 .

[TJBartlemus]

HagarIshay wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...
Problem I have with Synthesis is that it kills culture. There was even a big anti-synthesis speech in ME2 by Mordin. And if one character has a problem with it, why wouldn't more? (watch whole video to understand...)

The collecotors are Prothean husks. Mindless. Of course they won't have culture!

The society in synthesis, however, are not mindless husks. They think, they know, they feel.

They have culture.

Of course. I was refering to the advancement portion. Culture and tech are created by limitations. No limitations - Culture stagnates.

[DirtyPhoenix]

As for control being paragon, my pure paragon Shep picked control because:
1. She was not willing to commit genocide.
2. She was not willing to play god on the galaxy.

So she grabbed the reins of control. It might not have been what she had planned returning to Earth, but faced with the choices in that decision chamber, this is what she picked because this was the option that fulfilled most of the (paragon) goals. She had an issue with TIM over control because of the differences in its intended use, and its viability. Not because she considers it inherently evil or something. If she sees something that lets her save everyone without playing god she'll take it, nevermind its her enemy's idea. If that makes her a hypocrite, then SO BE IT!

[Ageless Face]

TJBartlemus wrote...
Of course. I was refering to the advancement portion. Culture and tech are created by limitations. No limitations - Culture stagnates.

Pfft. Culture doesn't build itself of limitations. A culture advances based on the society's level of knowlage, new understandings, new opinions... In fact, you can say that the less there are limitations to a human mind, the more culture advances. In synthesis, you can say the society will advance itself into way we won't even begin to imagine now. You might not like the idea, but I, as well as I'm sure many other people, find it very interesting, and somewhat appealing.

And no one said there won't be limitations in synthesis. What do you even mean by that? 

[TJBartlemus]

HagarIshay wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...
Of course. I was refering to the advancement portion. Culture and tech are created by limitations. No limitations - Culture stagnates.

Pfft. Culture doesn't build itself of limitations. A culture advances based on the society's level of knowlage, new understandings, new opinions... In fact, you can say that the less there are limitations to a human mind, the more culture advances. In synthesis, you can say the society will advance itself into way we won't even begin to imagine now. You might not like the idea, but I, as well as I'm sure many other people, find it very interesting, and somewhat appealing.

And no one said there won't be limitations in synthesis. What do you even mean by that? 

Well synthesis as the catalyst describes is finally reaching the peak of evolution. So if you hit the peak, you can't get any higher. Thus evolution stops, meaning that they cannot advance any more than they have. Culture stagnates.

[Ageless Face]

TJBartlemus wrote...
Well synthesis as the catalyst describes is finally reaching the peak of evolution. So if you hit the peak, you can't get any higher. Thus evolution stops, meaning that they cannot advance any more than they have. Culture stagnates.

EDI disagrees. And also logic. People will always evolve. Even the husks can evolve (Rmemeber what Shepard him/herself says on Horizon in ME2? That the husk evolved from ME1 time). So no. Evolution will always exist. Esspecially on living beings with minds.

The catalyst for all we know can mean that it's the final evolution of organic or synthetic lives. Since now they're all hybrids.

[Xandurpein]

I think Control may end up a decent ending, but not as good as some think and ultimately pretty tragic for Shepard. If Shepard truly tries to act good then he galaxy will for a period of time hopefully  see a Pax Shepard, but it can't last for long. No nation will in the end accept peace on those terms unless forced. It doesn't matter how benevolent the new Reapers are. Attempts have been made throughout history; Pax Romana, Pax Brittanica, Pax Americana. Sooner or later some nations will see it as a yoke and try to escape it.

Time will not be on the Reaper's side. The Reapers are unchanging over countless cycles. They don't evolve, but with no Reapers to threaten them, the races of the Galaxy will continue to evolve technologically, spurred by the desire to match the Reapers militarily. Within a century or two perhaps the Reapers will no longer be the unchallenged arbiters. Another two centuries maybe and they will be anachronism, more to be pitied than feared, as the rest of the galaxy continues to forge ahead...

Modifié par Xandurpein, 30 juillet 2012 - 08:33 .

[Ranger Jack Walker]

Could the Reapers be upgraded? They might lack the ability to advance themselves but they can still advance technologically by using developments made by the current cycle. This method would mean that the current cycle and reapers would eventually reach the same level and then advance along parallel lines.

[Ageless Face]

Xandurpein wrote...

I think Control may end up a decent ending, but not as good as some think and ultimately pretty tragic for Shepard. If Shepard truly tries to act good then he galaxy will for a period of time hopefully  see a Pax Shepard, but it can't last for long. No nation will in the end accept peace on those terms unless forced. It doesn't matter how benevolent the new Reapers are. Attempts have been made throughout history; Pax Romana, Pax Brittanica, Pax Americana. Sooner or later some nations will see it as a yoke and try to escape it.

Time will not be on the Reaper's side. The Reapers are unchanging over countless cycles. They don't evolve, but with no Reapers to threaten them, the races of the Galaxy will continue to evolve technologically, spurred by the desire to match the Reapers militarily. Within a century or two perhaps the Reapers will no longer be the unchallenged arbiters. Another two centuries maybe and they will be anachronism, more to be pitied than feared, as the rest of the galaxy continues to forge ahead...

And how do you know the galaxy won't accept peace unless forced to? What, will it be the first time when enemies that got vastly outnumbered and had heavy losess will make peace with the enemy who did that to them? Certainly not.

Besides, why won't the reapers  evolove? How would the galaxy be so fowerfull within only a century without the reaper's help? I remind you that it'll take at least a century for the galaxy to rebuild itself. By then the reapers can be gone if they'd like.

Also, there is also the small fact that in the elpilouge, no one seemed generully displeased. In fact, what I saw is most people happy and smiling, having comfarable lives. And Reapers rebuild the relays. Shows they trying to get on the galaxy's good nature. And yes, they succeeded.

[estebanus]

Seival wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Seival wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Yes, I'd LOVE to see Shepard using Harbinger to communicate

Yeah, I can only imagine how that would look like when Shepard talks to his/her LI.

HUMAN/ASARI/TURIAN/QUARIAN. YOU HAVE FAILED IN PLEASING ME. WE WILL FIND ANOTHER WAY. THIS RELATIONSHIP IS IRRELEVANT. RELEASING CONTROL.

The most advanced AI with Commander Shepard Personality is the most sane and wise creature ever existed (at least if we are talking about Paragon Shepard).

And you are talking about some mindless teenager. Not even AI-teenager

T'was merely but a jest, a jibe to entertain my guest. /Ancient oak

But Seival, I've noticed that you often try to enforce your own Shepard on everyone else. Please don't do that. Bioware have said that there's nothing canon in Mass Effect, which means that Shepard might as well be a teenager in the body of a 31-year old. There, I've said it. It is now canon for me. It is also canon for me that Renegade control-Shepard chooses to start reaper racing, and that my paragon controlshep restarts the cycle.

[masster blaster]

Guys don't forget new IT thread Mark 3 is now open for everyone.

[estebanus]

masster blaster wrote...

Guys don't forget new IT thread Mark 3 is now open for everyone.

What dafuq do you think they care?

This thread is about control, not the IT. The only thing you're doing is flamebaiting

Modifié par estebanus, 30 juillet 2012 - 10:12 .

[Ageless Face]

estebanus wrote...
T'was merely but a jest, a jibe to entertain my guest. /Ancient oak 

But Seival, I've noticed that you often try to enforce your own Shepard on everyone else. Please don't do that. Bioware have said that there's nothing canon in Mass Effect, which means that Shepard might as well be a teenager in the body of a 31-year old. There, I've said it. It is now canon for me. It is also canon for me that Renegade control-Shepard chooses to start reaper racing, and that my paragon controlshep restarts the cycle.

Well what an awful Shepard you have. I mean, I get restarting the cycle, but reaper racing? THAT IS EXCLUSIVE TO PARAGON!!!! 

Modifié par HagarIshay, 30 juillet 2012 - 10:13 .

[masster blaster]

estebanus wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Guys don't forget new IT thread Mark 3 is now open for everyone.

What dafuq do you think they care?

This thread is about control, not the IT. The only thing you're doing is flamebaiting

sorry I saw you guys here and I thought you all did not know about.

[Ranger Jack Walker]

^I'm sure all those who were interested already knew. You don't need to go advertising the thread.

[masster blaster]

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

^I'm sure all those who were interested already knew. You don't need to go advertising the thread.

Well they are Iters so I just wanted to give them a heads up.

Modifié par masster blaster, 30 juillet 2012 - 10:21 .