4520 réponses à ce sujet

[Ageless Face]

CrutchCricket wrote...
The follies of tech unearned is a running theme in the whole series. Have we learned nothing from the krogan or the geth? To say nothing of the Citadel and relays themselves? It's not about posing a threat to Commander. Like I said before, leaving guns around for kids to find is just as irresponsible, even if you're the Hulk (or someone similarly bulletproof). Think about that age of strife I was talking about. Synthesis escalates the conflict from a bare-knuckle brawl to nuclear war. Must Commander make the same mistake? Willingly? And finally since I've modeled my ideas of control so extensively on Watchmen, think again on what seemingly limitless resources unearned has wrought. Is Manhattan giving the US everything it needs making things better? Or just speeding up the inevitable doom?

It's not the same like letting a kid play with guns. More like letting a man shoot for the first time. The difference is, that a man knows to be careful. And AI Shep, as I said, will give it to them, even tach them to use it. Do I care that the galaxy didn't "earn it"? Hell no! What is earning it means anyway? Should the humans have leave the Prothean ruins on mars, never touch it, never experiment, never advance from it? True, it was dangerous. But just leaving it would have been so wastfull. Even the Crucible. If the Alliance wouldn't have build it, you might as well have said goodbye to this cycle (some already did). So should the organics and synthetics just let the reaper technology pass by? Should AI Shep not give them the technology, even after (I imagine) s/he tested it, after knowing what the effects will be, what it is? It will be as foolish as the Quarians not letting the Geth help them "fix" their immune system. I don't see the Quarians do that, if you create peace. So why should the galaxy not take the Reapers' help?

I also would've thought organic distrust of Reapers was self-explanatory. Since when are we all buddy-buddy with teh giant killbots that just tried to enact a billion year old plot of wiping us out of existence? Remeber, to everyone else the Reapers just inexplicably stopped attacking after that aesthetically pleasing blue pulse. They have no idea that there's a new control entity, they have no idea there's a control entity at all. Nor should they. Commander has no reason to reveal itself and such a revelation would only accelerate us to the breaking point faster. And sorry to Godwin it but if naz!s were still around, you really think people would accept their tech? Never mind the tech we ourselves developed as a result of their questionable research, picture Hitler and Mengele on the street, handing out kajigers. I'm betting there isn't going to be much of a lineup.

And tech does affect lives, again this should be obvious. See krogan, geth, quarians... Hell, see every civilization, real or fictional, ever.

And that is something my AI Shep do differently in my headcanon. She WILL let the galaxy know the Reapers have changed, since they have. Germany isn't made out of Naz!s, Reapers aren't what they were. If Shepard won't tell the Reapers have changed, then first: Reapers fixing things like relays will look quite odd. Second, the galaxy can still think the reapers want to kill them, even though they ran away. Another war will start.

Modifié par HagarIshay, 01 août 2012 - 02:41 .

[DirtyPhoenix]

fchopin wrote...
Ok you are correct i did say that and i will try to explain why.
 
When Shepard picks the control ending he or she is no longer human as Shepard is dead as far as we know.
If
Shepard becomes the new catalyst i would expect him to still have some
of the feelings and thoughts while alive and stop the harvesting in the
immediate future, how long this would last is impossible to say as there
is no way for us to know what Sheapard will become after time passes
and he joins with the reaper collective.
Shepard the new starchild
knows that an answer has to be found quickly as the humans must never
become more advanced than the reapers as the reapers would lose all the
power they have without superiority of power.
 
The only options
are to continue with the harvesting to stop the humans from inventing
new advanced AI’s like it was before or try to find some kind of
solution to synthesis.
 
The more time passes the more Shepard
will become just another starchild and continue with the harvesting
until another race makes it to the catalyst to get the 3 options or
maybe more options by then.
 
You will ask why i believe Shepard
will become another starchild and my answer is why would he not become
another starchild, Shepard is no longer Shepard or human but an advanced
AI or whatever he has become.

I understand that... and thats definitely one of the reason I didn't pick control for my canon Shepard
In control the reapers are the same old genocidal machines they were before, lets hope our Commander's mind holds

Modifié par pirate1802, 01 août 2012 - 02:41 .

[Seival]

fchopin wrote...

Seival wrote...

fchopin wrote...

Yes the illusive man was correct, if shepard chooses control he takes over starchild’s job and becomes the new reaper boss which will appear for the next race that makes it to the citadel to give them the 3 choices.

Control is replacement of starchild.

And that was your misunderstanding of Control Ending. So, I told you that you didn't understand the ending. It's as simple as that

Ok you are correct i did say that and i will try to explain why.
 
When Shepard picks the control ending he or she is no longer human as Shepard is dead as far as we know.
If Shepard becomes the new catalyst i would expect him to still have some of the feelings and thoughts while alive and stop the harvesting in the immediate future, how long this would last is impossible to say as there is no way for us to know what Sheapard will become after time passes and he joins with the reaper collective.
Shepard the new starchild knows that an answer has to be found quickly as the humans must never become more advanced than the reapers as the reapers would lose all the power they have without superiority of power.
 
The only options are to continue with the harvesting to stop the humans from inventing new advanced AI’s like it was before or try to find some kind of solution to synthesis.
 
The more time passes the more Shepard will become just another starchild and continue with the harvesting until another race makes it to the catalyst to get the 3 options or maybe more options by then.
 
You will ask why i believe Shepard will become another starchild and my answer is why would he not become another starchild, Shepard is no longer Shepard or human but an advanced AI or whatever he has become.

Such doubts were rised in this thread several times already.

As I said before, the Catalist is an AI with unlimited processing power, and way of thinking and memories of the person which it was made of (or made by). I think it's clear that the original Catalist was made of (or made by) unstable person, who can make really insane decisions, but still could be convinced in those decisions irregularity.

Shepard is different person. And as a result of Control ending, Shepard-Catalist will have nothing in common with the original Catalist. Shepard-Catalist will have no reasons to make the original Catalist's mistakes. Wise persons learn from mistakes, instead of repeating them. And Shepard-Catalist (at least Paragon one) is the wisest person ever existed. Nothing can change that, because Catalist is not a human, it's an AI.

Modifié par Seival, 01 août 2012 - 02:46 .

[Ageless Face]

pirate1802 wrote...

I understand that... and thats definitely one of the reason I didn't pick control for my canon Shepard
In control the reapers are the same old genocidal machines they were before, lets hope our Commander's mind holds

Not necessarily. Sure, they aren't synthesised Reapers. But their codes have changed from the Reapers. My guess is that their personality is the same, but they have different limitations, depends on what you want. Isn't that all that matters? 

Modifié par HagarIshay, 01 août 2012 - 02:45 .

[shepdog77]

Not sure if this has been posted here, but I figured I'd share it with y'all.  I got some good laughs out of it.

[DirtyPhoenix]

HagarIshay wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

I understand that... and thats definitely one of the reason I didn't pick control for my canon Shepard
In control the reapers are the same old genocidal machines they were before, lets hope our Commander's mind holds

Not necessarily. Sure, they aren't synthesised Reapers. But their codes have changed from the Reapers. My guess is that their personality is the same, but they have different limitations, depends on what you want. Isn't that all that matters? 

Yes, the thing is, according to my understanding, the reaper's mindset reflects the catalyst's. There was a thread that argued nicely that the reapers are probably indoctrinated by the catalyst themselves. So yes I was a bit off. Peaceful Shepard's reapers would be peaceful. But if the commander flips someday....

Implications.. unpleasant.

But hey, such unpleasant implications are in every endings.

[Ageless Face]

pirate1802 wrote...
Yes, the thing is, according to my understanding, the reaper's mindset reflects the catalyst's. There was a thread that argued nicely that the reapers are probably indoctrinated by the catalyst themselves. So yes I was a bit off. Peaceful Shepard's reapers would be peaceful. But if the commander flips someday....

Implications.. unpleasant.

But hey, such unpleasant implications are in every endings.

Yep. In control there could be a malfunction that will cause Reapers to go crazy, in destroy someone can rebuild the reapers, in synthesis... Organics will get their DNA rusty?

Refuse... The unpleasant implications have already happened. 

[Seival]

shepdog77 wrote...

Not sure if this has been posted here, but I figured I'd share it with y'all.  I got some good laughs out of it.

***

Yes, it was posted here. But you should understand, that TIM was right only about Control possibility. His methods were wrong, and he was wrong when he told that he can control the Reapers. Basically, TIM became a victim of his own "too renegade way of thinking". And that was really sad.

Modifié par Seival, 01 août 2012 - 03:00 .

[Ageless Face]

Relax Seival, it was only a joke. Not a very funny one, but still a joke.

[fchopin]

Seival wrote...
Such doubts were rised in this thread several times already.

As I said before, the Catalist is an AI with unlimited processing power, and way of thinking and memories of the person which it was made of (or made by). I think it's clear that the original Catalist was made of (or made by) unstable person, who can make really insane decisions, but still could be convinced in those decisions irregularity.

Shepard is different person. And as a result of Control ending, Shepard-Catalist will have nothing in common with the original Catalist. Shepard-Catalist will have no reasons to make the original Catalist's mistakes. Wise persons learn from mistakes, instead of repeating them. And Shepard-Catalist (at least Paragon one) is the wisest person ever existed. Nothing can change that, because Catalist is not a human, it's an AI.

You forget that there is an inbuilt function in the catalyst to find an answer to the synthetic versus the life answer that cannot be changed unless the catalyst can be persuaded that he is wrong.
By becoming part of the catalyst and reaper collective Shepard is also part of the problem and a solution has to be found.
The longer Shepard hesitates the worse the problem will become.
Unless Shepard can decide to destroy the reapers in the first few days of taking control it will be to late and Shepard will become part of the problem.
It has nothing to do with reasoning with a human; Shepard is no longer human or have human feelings.Power corrupts.

[shepdog77]

HagarIshay wrote...

Relax Seival, it was only a joke. Not a very funny one, but still a joke.

Well I thought it was funny b/c it was comparing the likeness of Mitt Romney and TIM, but ok. 

[Seival]

fchopin wrote...

Seival wrote...
Such doubts were rised in this thread several times already.

As I said before, the Catalist is an AI with unlimited processing power, and way of thinking and memories of the person which it was made of (or made by). I think it's clear that the original Catalist was made of (or made by) unstable person, who can make really insane decisions, but still could be convinced in those decisions irregularity.

Shepard is different person. And as a result of Control ending, Shepard-Catalist will have nothing in common with the original Catalist. Shepard-Catalist will have no reasons to make the original Catalist's mistakes. Wise persons learn from mistakes, instead of repeating them. And Shepard-Catalist (at least Paragon one) is the wisest person ever existed. Nothing can change that, because Catalist is not a human, it's an AI.

You forget that there is an inbuilt function in the catalyst to find an answer to the synthetic versus the life answer that cannot be changed unless the catalyst can be persuaded that he is wrong.
By becoming part of the catalyst and reaper collective Shepard is also part of the problem and a solution has to be found.
The longer Shepard hesitates the worse the problem will become.
Unless Shepard can decide to destroy the reapers in the first few days of taking control it will be to late and Shepard will become part of the problem.
It has nothing to do with reasoning with a human; Shepard is no longer human or have human feelings.Power corrupts.

The point is that power is able to corrupt only an organic being. Any organic will can be broken (by pain, desire or anything that organic being might feel), because it's just a product of chemistry. But AI code is unbreakable. Nothing can change it unless the AI itself decides to change it, or unless the AI was hacked.

I believe that the Catalist isn't able to reprogram itself, and can't be hacked. That's why you need Galactic-scale explosion to replace the original Catalist with new one. As I said before, I believe that Crucible's explosion changes the Catalist on atomic level, because no other kind of changing it is possible.

...Also, please don't forget that Catalist-Shepard is a collective mind of all Reapers, not a "part of the Reapers' collective". Shepard literally becomes The Reapers, not a "Reaper King". "The Reapers" is actually one creature, which consists of many different mobile platforms.

Modifié par Seival, 01 août 2012 - 03:37 .

[CrutchCricket]

HagarIshay wrote...
It's not the same like letting a kid play with guns. More like letting a man shoot for the first time. The difference is, that a man knows to be careful. And AI Shep, as I said, will give it to them, even tach them to use it. Do I care that the galaxy didn't "earn it"? Hell no! What is earning it means anyway? Should the humans have leave the Prothean ruins on mars, never touch it, never experiment, never advance from it? True, it was dangerous. But just leaving it would have been so wastfull. Even the Crucible. If the Alliance wouldn't have build it, you might as well have said goodbye to this cycle (some already did). So should the organics and synthetics just let the reaper technology pass by? Should AI Shep not give them the technology, even after (I imagine) s/he tested it, after knowing what the effects will be, what it is? It will be as foolish as the Quarians not letting the Geth help them "fix" their immune system. I don't see the Quarians do that, if you create peace. So why should the galaxy not take the Reapers' help?

A man knows how to be careful? Tell that to TIM.
The underlined: Yeah and look how that turned out. It thrust us into galactic society but nearly got us wiped out by the Reapers. Why? Because though we may have earned the Prothean technology by studying it on Mars, we still fell for the trap with the relays and the Citadel. We used them complacently, without even trying to understand them. Just handing someone tech is never a good idea. Like I replied to someone else in a similar vein, you want to build relays? Study the ones you see and go for it. But don't expect my help. Or Thannix cannons. We made them ours by reverse engineering. We didn't have Sovereing spoon feed it to us.

Any tech organics can take and learn for themselves is fair game. Spoon feeding them tech is a mistake.

I'd also recommend reading the Tommyknockers by Stephen King for more on morons (lol) using technology. Technology by itself doesn't make you greater than what you were. It's the process of gaining that technology that makes you grow.

By the way, geth don't apply as "given tech" for the quarians since they created them. Even if geth advanced beyond what quarians initially made them.

And that is something my AI Shep do differently in my headcanon. She WILL let the galaxy know the Reapers have changed, since they have. Germany isn't made out of Naz!s, Reapers aren't what they were. If Shepard won't tell the Reapers have changed, then first: Reapers fixing things like relays will look quite odd. Second, the galaxy can still think the reapers want to kill them, even though they ran away. Another war will start.

Exactly. Reapers will always be a source of tension. And you're distorting the comparison. Reapers aren't just a misguided group of synthetics. They are (or were) the problem. This isn't like getting along with Germany after WWII, this is like having the SS over for tea.

It isn't really a tech problem anymore it's a problem of association. Reapers will forever bear the mark of the atrocities they have committed. It's organic nature to "bear a grudge" if I can so trivialize it. It doesn't matter how many benefits Reapers can bring, they will never be accepted. Doesn't matter if it's right or wrong, foolish or wise. It's simply the way people are.

Also Commander revealing itself is a mistake that will further tarnish humanity in the galaxy's eyes. Because many will react the way detractors do on the BSN- the human that was supposed to lead us to victory instead bowed down and joined them. He became the very thing he was fighting (again, right or wrong, this prejudiced thinking will be rampant). Or (perhaps even worse), he simply succumbed to his lust for power. Just like a human to be too greedy and ambitious. Just like a human to want to rule the galaxy. All these thoughts were freely expressed way before the Reapers, simply because we "rose too fast" in the galactic community (ignoring how ineffectual this position actually was).

Needless to say, none of this is particularly conductive to maintaining peace. Commander will not make these mistakes.

[fchopin]

Seival wrote...

The point is that power is able to corrupt only an organic being. Any organic will can be broken (by pain, desire or anything that organic being might feel), because it's just a product of chemistry. But AI code is unbreakable. Nothing can change it unless the AI itself decides to change it, or unless the AI was hacked.

I believe that the Catalist isn't able to reprogram itself, and can't be hacked. That's why you need Galactic-scale explosion to replace the original Catalist with new one. As I said before, I believe that Crucible's explosion changes the Catalist on atomic level, because no other kind of changing it is possible.

...Also, please don't forget that Catalist-Shepard is a collective mind of all Reapers, not a "part of the Reapers' collective". Shepard literally becomes The Reapers, not a "Reaper King". "The Reapers" is actually one creature, which consists of many different mobile platforms.

If Shepard becomes part of the collective reapers then what chance is there for Shepard to have sympathy for Humans, if i am part reaper then i would want to harvest all humans to preserve them, Shepard already has access to reaper harvesting so he can communicate with all the different lives that were harvested so he would be happy to have all life forms in these manner.
 
AI’s do feel pain but in a different way, just like the Geth were feeling some kind of pain when Quarians were destroying the collective database they were building, each loss of the Geth mind was giving them pain so they joined the reapers to stop this.
 
Both humans, Geth and reapers can be brainwashed, there is no such thing as immunity all it takes is knowing how.
 
Life is not that simple as thinking Shepard will die and then take over the Reapers and make the reapers stop the harvesting. We only know what Shepard will do when he is alive, when he is dead we have no idea what he would do as he is no longer Shepard, that is why i always pick destroy for my ending.

Modifié par fchopin, 01 août 2012 - 04:18 .

[Ranger Jack Walker]

shepdog77 wrote...

Not sure if this has been posted here, but I figured I'd share it with y'all.  I got some good laughs out of it.

It's been posted before but always great to see again. The resemblence is... scary to say the least.

[Seival]

fchopin wrote...

Seival wrote...

The point is that power is able to corrupt only an organic being. Any organic will can be broken (by pain, desire or anything that organic being might feel), because it's just a product of chemistry. But AI code is unbreakable. Nothing can change it unless the AI itself decides to change it, or unless the AI was hacked.

I believe that the Catalist isn't able to reprogram itself, and can't be hacked. That's why you need Galactic-scale explosion to replace the original Catalist with new one. As I said before, I believe that Crucible's explosion changes the Catalist on atomic level, because no other kind of changing it is possible.

...Also, please don't forget that Catalist-Shepard is a collective mind of all Reapers, not a "part of the Reapers' collective". Shepard literally becomes The Reapers, not a "Reaper King". "The Reapers" is actually one creature, which consists of many different mobile platforms.

If Shepard becomes part of the collective reapers then what chance is there for Shepard to have sympathy for Humans, if i am part reaper then i would want to harvest all humans to preserve them, Shepard already has access to reaper harvesting so he can communicate with all the different lives that were harvested so he would be happy to have all life forms in these manner.
 
AI’s do feel pain but in a different way, just like the Geth were feeling dome kind of pain when Quarians were destroying the collective database they were building, each loss of the Geth mind was giving them pain so they joined the reapers to stop this.
 
Both humans, Geth and reapers can be brainwashed, there is no such thing as immunity all it takes is knowing how.
 
Life is not that simple as thinking Shepard will die and then take over the Reapers and make the reapers stop the harvesting. We only know what Shepard will do when he is alive, when he is dead we have no idea what he would do as he is no longer Shepard, that is why i always pick destroy for my ending.

Again, the Catalist is collective mind of all Reapers, not a part of Reapers' collective. Game clearly states that. And "harvesting for preserving" is the original Catalist's logic, not the new one's. Game clearly states that too.

You can read my thoughts on synthetic feelings in OP. Unlike organic feelings (which are a product of chemistry), synthetic feelings are physics. For example, synthetic can sense damage, but unlike organic pain this feeling will never drive synthetic mad. Synthetic can withstand any amount of "pain" for as long as needed without doing anything about it. And all organic can do with pain is to become mad, or use painkillers.

If the Catalist could be "brainwashed", then you wouldn't need Galactic-scale explosions to replace the Catalist. Explosions aren't used for reprogramming. They are used to affect meterial.



...It looks like you didn't watch Control epilogue (which has 4 different variants by the way) at all. The game clearly states what exactly Shepard-Catalist will do in the future. 

By the way. In case of Destroy game also clearly states what Galactic Civilization will do next - rebuild everything, including the Citadel (and including the Reapers?... or at least including some parts of Reaper tech, like indoctrination and harvesting). So, if what you've told us was your only concern about the Control, then don't worry and choose it without any fear

Modifié par Seival, 01 août 2012 - 04:59 .

[fchopin]

Seival wrote...

Again, the Catalist is collective mind of all Reapers, not a part of Reapers' collective. Game clearly states that. And "harvesting for preserving" is the original Catalist's logic, not the new one's. Game clearly states that too.

You can read my thoughts on synthetic feelings in OP. Unlike organic feelings (which are a product of chemistry), synthetic feelings are physics. For example, synthetic can sense damage, but unlike organic pain this feeling will never drive synthetic mad. Synthetic can withstand any amount of "pain" for as long as needed without doing anything about it. And all organic can do with pain is to become mad, or use painkillers.

If the Catalist could be "brainwashed", then you wouldn't need Galactic-scale explosions to replace the Catalist. Explosions aren't used for reprogramming. They are used to affect meterial.



...It looks like you didn't watch Control epilogue (which has 4 different variants by the way) at all. The game clearly states what exactly Shepard-Catalist will do in the future. 

By the way. In case of Destroy game also clearly states what Galactic Civilization will do next - rebuild everything, including the Citadel (and including the Reapers?... or at least including some parts of Reaper tech, like indoctrination and harvesting). So, if what you've told us was your only concern about the Control, then don't worry and choose it without any fear

The explanation your Shepard-Catalyst tells you about in the first few hours is not the explanation you will get in a few days or a few years.
Please do not try to tell me what an AI mind of reapers will think and do in a few hundred years or i will think you are joking.
Watching the reapers leave in the beginning means nothing and don't tell me what Bioware tries to show as they don't even know themselves. It is all guess work and imagination.
You are supposed to use your imagination and try to figure things out not wait for Bioware to show you, Bioware can not show you as they don't even know themselves.
 
I disagree completely with you about your explanation on robotics and what an AI is and also what pain is and what AI's and humans can endure.
 
You will need to give better explanations if you want to convince me and never say this is what Bioware showed as what you see and what i see are not the same.

[Ageless Face]

CrutchCricket wrote...
A man knows how to be careful? Tell that to TIM.

 

And do you think AI Shep will give technology for one person alone? Goverments, yes. I never meant to say giving technology for anything less. If afterwards people like TIM will use the tech for themselves and try to do something with it, I'd imagine the galaxy will know how to take care of itself. Every technology is dangrous if it will fall into the wrong hands. Doesn't mean people should stop creating. 

The underlined: Yeah and look how that turned out. It thrust us into galactic society but nearly got us wiped out by the Reapers. Why? Because though we may have earned the Prothean technology by studying it on Mars, we still fell for the trap with the relays and the Citadel. We used them complacently, without even trying to understand them. Just handing someone tech is never a good idea. Like I replied to someone else in a similar vein, you want to build relays? Study the ones you see and go for it. But don't expect my help. Or Thannix cannons. We made them ours by reverse engineering. We didn't have Sovereing spoon feed it to us.

Any tech organics can take and learn for themselves is fair game. Spoon feeding them tech is a mistake.

I'd also recommend reading the Tommyknockers by Stephen King for more on morons (lol) using technology. Technology by itself doesn't make you greater than what you were. It's the process of gaining that technology that makes you grow.

By the way, geth don't apply as "given tech" for the quarians since they created them. Even if geth advanced beyond what quarians initially made them.

 

The Reapers were a special case, usually you won't get turned into goo for advancing yourself, and it wasn't about the technology itself being dangerous to the humans. Humans would might as well have waited a few centuries till they would have been as advanced as they are now, and the Reapers would have come to get them before returning to dark space. Might not even need to wait that long. Point is that it would have happened anyway.

I'm not saying having advanced technolgy will make you greater yourself. In fact, that is another point. Having more advanced technolgy won't change you. Wether it's good or not is up to debate, but point is that even if organics get "spoon feeded", it won't change them. So having the tech wether now or in a hundered years won't matter, the consequences will be the same, or at least very similar.

Exactly. Reapers will always be a source of tension. And you're distorting the comparison. Reapers aren't just a misguided group of synthetics. They are (or were) the problem. This isn't like getting along with Germany after WWII, this is like having the SS over for tea.

It isn't really a tech problem anymore it's a problem of association. Reapers will forever bear the mark of the atrocities they have committed. It's organic nature to "bear a grudge" if I can so trivialize it. It doesn't matter how many benefits Reapers can bring, they will never be accepted. Doesn't matter if it's right or wrong, foolish or wise. It's simply the way people are.

Of course individual organics will have a problem with Reapers, I won't deny that. But as for goverments who need to keep the peace, I believe that as long as the Reapers will keep their distance from community, they will accept their help. I mean that way they will benefit, and there won't be a war going on. On a moral standpoint, I imagine that the organics will demand blood (if reapers have that sort of thing...). But the galaxy won't be ready for it for at least 200 hundred years, because of the rebuildings. I believe that in that time, IF AI Shep will show him/herself as a non threat, at least some of the goverments will take his/her help. Without the public's knowledge, of course. But the goverments will have to get help. I don't want the Reapers as part of the community. But I DO want them to help the galaxy. That is how I imagine the galaxy will get the help.

And after those few centuries of rebuilding the galaxy, people's blood lust will wane. Will the galaxy always see the reapers as evil or will just accept them- far away or close? That is up for debate. I believe some will accept them, some won't. Doesn't matter for me anyway, they will keep their distance in my headcanon. 

 
Also Commander revealing itself is a mistake that will further tarnish humanity in the galaxy's eyes. Because many will react the way detractors do on the BSN- the human that was supposed to lead us to victory instead bowed down and joined them. He became the very thing he was fighting (again, right or wrong, this prejudiced thinking will be rampant). Or (perhaps even worse), he simply succumbed to his lust for power. Just like a human to be too greedy and ambitious. Just like a human to want to rule the galaxy. All these thoughts were freely expressed way before the Reapers, simply because we "rose too fast" in the galactic community (ignoring how ineffectual this position actually was).

Needless to say, none of this is particularly conductive to maintaining peace. Commander will not make these mistakes.

I'm fairly certain people will see AI Shep is not Shepard. And it won't damage humanity in the galaxy's eyes anymore than Saren damaged the Turians' reputation. Besides, the galaxy sees Shepard as a hero, no? "The Shepard". 

[I_eat_unicorns]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

Lets totally forget that after choosing the Control ending the starbrat is shown with a semblance of a smile on his space face..

Are you kidding? I can barley see i that kid's face, just his eyes. Looking for a smile is trying too hard. 

[CrutchCricket]

HagarIshay wrote...

And do you think AI Shep will give technology for one person alone? Goverments, yes. I never meant to say giving technology for anything less. If afterwards people like TIM will use the tech for themselves and try to do something with it, I'd imagine the galaxy will know how to take care of itself. Every technology is dangrous if it will fall into the wrong hands. Doesn't mean people should stop creating.

Except they're not creating anything. They're just following someone else's instructions and assembling things like idiots. They might as well be idiots because even idiots can build great tech if someone  (or something) holds their hand every step of the way.

The Reapers were a special case, usually you won't get turned into goo for advancing yourself, and it wasn't about the technology itself being dangerous to the humans. Humans would might as well have waited a few centuries till they would have been as advanced as they are now, and the Reapers would have come to get them before returning to dark space. Might not even need to wait that long. Point is that it would have happened anyway.

I'm not saying having advanced technolgy will make you greater yourself. In fact, that is another point. Having more advanced technolgy won't change you. Wether it's good or not is up to debate, but point is that even if organics get "spoon feeded", it won't change them. So having the tech wether now or in a hundered years won't matter, the consequences will be the same, or at least very similar.

The point isn't about the dangers of tech but rather the complacency of using without understanding. And did you miss Mordin's speech about the follies of uplifting before a species is ready? For all the "not changing" that it did it still nearly wiped out the krogan because they weren't ready for it.

Of course individual organics will have a problem with Reapers, I won't deny that. But as for goverments who need to keep the peace, I believe that as long as the Reapers will keep their distance from community, they will accept their help.

Governments that accept Reaper help will not stay in power for much longer. You're vastly underestimating the impact of what the Reapers have done, of what they are (or were).

I mean that way they will benefit, and there won't be a war going on. On a moral standpoint, I imagine that the organics will demand blood (if reapers have that sort of thing...). But the galaxy won't be ready for it for at least 200 hundred years, because of the rebuildings. I believe that in that time, IF AI Shep will show him/herself as a non threat, at least some of the goverments will take his/her help. Without the public's knowledge, of course. But the goverments will have to get help. I don't want the Reapers as part of the community. But I DO want them to help the galaxy. That is how I imagine the galaxy will get the help.

And after those few centuries of rebuilding the galaxy, people's blood lust will wane. Will the galaxy always see the reapers as evil or will just accept them- far away or close? That is up for debate. I believe some will accept them, some won't. Doesn't matter for me anyway, they will keep their distance in my headcanon.

On the contrary war is just around the corner. The Reapers have been dealt with but there is still the matter of all the **** individual races have pulled that they still need to answer for. Far from being the land of happiness and chocolate accusations will fly and tensions will build to clear the bad blood. The result will be anything from a 6-way Cold War to full on galactic free-for-all. Allying yourself with the Reapers will be political suicide. Everyone else would turn on you nearly instantly. 
And 200 years? Really? That's barely worth registering to an asari or krogan and far too soon for even humans and turians (don't know the life spans of other species but I'm assuming it's around that ballpark. Salarians an exception obviously) Again, was everything just dandy on the subject of WW2 in the 70s?
The less said or seen of Reapers the better.

 
I'm fairly certain people will see AI Shep is not Shepard. And it won't damage humanity in the galaxy's eyes anymore than Saren damaged the Turians' reputation. Besides, the galaxy sees Shepard as a hero, no? "The Shepard". 

Philosophy of identity aside (it won't matter much anyway) Shepard still joined the Reapers. Whether people will believe it's still him or merely an AI version of him is irrelevant. Unlike Saren who's quite clearly dead, Shepard's actions have left a galaxy wide legacy that cannot be ignored or rejected. The Reapers are still around and they are following directives that Shepard set out. It doesn't matter if they believe the man's dead. He created the Overlord. The Reapers might as well convert to Star Destroyers and proclaim humanity the First Galactic Empire. I literally do not have the words right now to explain how repulsed people will be by these notions. Add in the universal hatred of Reapers themselves and you've got yourself nigh-instant rebellion on a galactic scale. Again, the fact that all of these feelings are petty, organic and born of ignorance will make no difference.

In order to let the galaxy recover and grow in its own path, Commander must disappear. It may work only indirectly, through influence, manipulation and cajoling to steer clear of any other disasters. At least until the disconnect.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 01 août 2012 - 08:01 .

[Seival]

fchopin wrote...

Seival wrote...

Again, the Catalist is collective mind of all Reapers, not a part of Reapers' collective. Game clearly states that. And "harvesting for preserving" is the original Catalist's logic, not the new one's. Game clearly states that too.

You can read my thoughts on synthetic feelings in OP. Unlike organic feelings (which are a product of chemistry), synthetic feelings are physics. For example, synthetic can sense damage, but unlike organic pain this feeling will never drive synthetic mad. Synthetic can withstand any amount of "pain" for as long as needed without doing anything about it. And all organic can do with pain is to become mad, or use painkillers.

If the Catalist could be "brainwashed", then you wouldn't need Galactic-scale explosions to replace the Catalist. Explosions aren't used for reprogramming. They are used to affect meterial.



...It looks like you didn't watch Control epilogue (which has 4 different variants by the way) at all. The game clearly states what exactly Shepard-Catalist will do in the future. 

By the way. In case of Destroy game also clearly states what Galactic Civilization will do next - rebuild everything, including the Citadel (and including the Reapers?... or at least including some parts of Reaper tech, like indoctrination and harvesting). So, if what you've told us was your only concern about the Control, then don't worry and choose it without any fear

The explanation your Shepard-Catalyst tells you about in the first few hours is not the explanation you will get in a few days or a few years.
Please do not try to tell me what an AI mind of reapers will think and do in a few hundred years or i will think you are joking.
Watching the reapers leave in the beginning means nothing and don't tell me what Bioware tries to show as they don't even know themselves. It is all guess work and imagination.
You are supposed to use your imagination and try to figure things out not wait for Bioware to show you, Bioware can not show you as they don't even know themselves.
 
I disagree completely with you about your explanation on robotics and what an AI is and also what pain is and what AI's and humans can endure.
 
You will need to give better explanations if you want to convince me and never say this is what Bioware showed as what you see and what i see are not the same.

If you insist on short-terms explanations only in the epilogues, then I can give you the similar absurd long-terms version for Destroy: "Citadel, Mass Relays, Geth and the Reapers will be rebuilt; 50000 years later Galactic Civilization will create new Catalist, and this new Catalist will start the Cycles again"... And this is silly, isn't it? And you are trying to say the same thing for Control...

...No, fchopin. The epilogues give us long-terms explanations, because it's the meaning of the epilogues and closure - provide us information about long-terms consequences of our choices. What you are trying to do is to justify your Destroy choice by imagining something incorrect about other choices. And this is actually what most Destroyers do in other choices support threads, instead of creating their own support thread.

...And I'm not trying to convince you. Your choice is your choice. But please, don't try do justify your choice by showing complete misunderstanding of another choice. And if you wanna show everyone "how good you think Destroy is", use Destroy ending support thread for that. It's not really that hard to find

Modifié par Seival, 01 août 2012 - 08:31 .

[fchopin]

So in other words i am not wanted in this thread because i don't agree with your theory and you only want people who agree with you to post.

If that is the case i will go.

Modifié par fchopin, 01 août 2012 - 08:42 .

[Seival]

fchopin wrote...

So in other words i am not wanted in this thread because i don't agree with your theory and you only want people who agree with you to post.

If that is the case i will be go.

The epilogue is not a theory, it's the explanation of long-terms consequences of a stroy. We could argue about long-terms consequences before EC, but after EC release the endings became very easy to understand. There is nothing to argue about, unless we want to discuss different interpretations of the ending. But all those different interpretations should be based on correct understanding of the ending's concept...

...If you read the thread carefully, then you should notice that there are Control supporters (and other endings supporters) with different points of view on some specific Control aspects in this thread. And noone is trying to stop them talking, because those points of view are based on correct understanding of Control Ending. Even some Destroyers here understand what Control really means, but prefer Destroy, because that option fit their Shepards more.

[kolibri_]

fchopin wrote...

If that is the case i will go.

Bye and have a nice day.

[Seival]

I_eat_unicorns wrote...

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

Lets totally forget that after choosing the Control ending the starbrat is shown with a semblance of a smile on his space face..

Are you kidding? I can barley see i that kid's face, just his eyes. Looking for a smile is trying too hard. 

Well, even the hologram's eyes are not visible in Control scene actually. Unlike the rest of dialogue with the Catalist, in Control choosing part the hologram's face is completely empty.