4520 réponses à ce sujet

[DirtyPhoenix]

Disagree there. EDI always wanted to be more human, she'd definitely choose synthesis. She's even the narrator of the Synthesis epilogue. See how happy she is during that. As to why she chose to control the platform, because synthesis was not available and also, EDI = AI, Eva's body = Software. Not sure what's there to synthesize.You can argue EDI gaining her body was the first step towards her eventual synthesis.
EDI and Legion are the only two squaddies of Shepard who would choose Synthesis IMO.

[Seival]

pirate1802 wrote...

Disagree there. EDI always wanted to be more human, she'd definitely choose synthesis. She's even the narrator of the Synthesis epilogue. See how happy she is during that. As to why she chose to control the platform, because synthesis was not available and also, EDI = AI, Eva's body = Software. Not sure what's there to synthesize.You can argue EDI gaining her body was the first step towards her eventual synthesis.
EDI and Legion are the only two squaddies of Shepard who would choose Synthesis IMO.

Well, maybe you are right. Also, I think that Tali and Wrex could choose Synthesis. Tali - to cure her people instantly, and Wrex to stop the Krogan's discrimination because of their birth-rate...

...All those thoughts about what would choose squadmates gave me an idea to write a fan-fiction variant of current endings. I think this deserves a new topic

[DirtyPhoenix]

Wrex would consider synthesis only if genophage is uncured. He seemed desperate to cure it. Otherwise destroy or refuse (shoots the catalyst at the middle of the convo) Wreav on the other hand, doesn't seem to care about genophage that much. he'll likely choose RControl and proceed to exterminate the Turians and Salarians. Grunt probably would choose destroy.
Dunno about Tali. They are syntheto-phobes but after the peace..

[JunMadine]

Control = Immortality, Unlimited knowledge, you kill only the catalyst, assume control of harbinger, geth and edi are safe.

Synthesis = You die, everyone is mind raped, every looks weird and glows in the dark

[DirtyPhoenix]

JunMadine wrote...

Control = Immortality, Unlimited knowledge, you kill only the catalyst, assume control of harbinger, geth and edi are safe.

Synthesis = You die, everyone is mind raped, every looks weird and glows in the dark

Assumptions..
And Shepard is dead in control too, that AI isn't the Shepard that was before.

[Seival]

pirate1802 wrote...

JunMadine wrote...

Control = Immortality, Unlimited knowledge, you kill only the catalyst, assume control of harbinger, geth and edi are safe.

Synthesis = You die, everyone is mind raped, every looks weird and glows in the dark

Assumptions..
And Shepard is dead in control too, that AI isn't the Shepard that was before.

Well, someone prefer to believe that Catalist-Shepard is the Shepard's offspring who inherit her way of thinking and memories, while Human-Shepard died (this is my point of view). But someone prefer to think that Catalist-Shepard is "transformed Shepard", so she didn't actually die.

Modifié par Seival, 10 août 2012 - 01:45 .

[DirtyPhoenix]

"Through her death, I was created", "Through my birth her thoughts were freed", She constantly refers herself as the "woman I was"... "The woman who gave up her life".. I think its pretty clear. Shepard's thoughts and memories were preserved, but thats pretty much it. The thing is not even organic. The Shepard we knew and played the trilogy with, is gone.

Saying Shepard is alive in control is like saying Shepard is alive in Synthesis because there's a little bit of her in everyone. <_<

[SeptimusMagistos]

pirate1802 wrote...
Shepard's thoughts and memories were preserved, but thats pretty much it.

That's...literally all Shepard is or was?

[DirtyPhoenix]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...
Shepard's thoughts and memories were preserved, but thats pretty much it.

That's...literally all Shepard is or was?

No.. her organic feelings and emotions are removed. She'll no longer feel love for Liara :'( She's no longer an organic. She's an AI based on the memories of a dead spectre.

[SeptimusMagistos]

pirate1802 wrote...

No.. her organic feelings and emotions are removed. She'll no longer feel love for Liara :'( She's no longer an organic. She's an AI based on the memories of a dead spectre.

AIs are pretty clearly capable of both emotions and love. Really, unless you buy into the idea that there is any real difference between organics and synthetics this line of argument makes no sense.

[Ageless Face]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...
AIs are pretty clearly capable of both emotions and love. Really, unless you buy into the idea that there is any real difference between organics and synthetics this line of argument makes no sense.

The way ME3 showed synthetics (after the synthetics themselves telling us they don't have emotions) was unrealistic, lore-wise. Synthetics don't have emotions. They're not lesser or something to organics don't get me wrong, it's just a fact. At least in Mass Effect.

But anyway, you can look at AI Shep in any way you want. I prefer to look at him/her as Shepard's different form. Not really Shepard we know, but still has enough of his/her personality inside it.

[DirtyPhoenix]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

No.. her organic feelings and emotions are removed. She'll no longer feel love for Liara :'( She's no longer an organic. She's an AI based on the memories of a dead spectre.

AIs are pretty clearly capable of both emotions and love. Really, unless you buy into the idea that there is any real difference between organics and synthetics this line of argument makes no sense.

Well there is a difference between simulating emotions and genuinely feeling them. EDI tries hard to simulate them by modifying her codes, but mostly fails, given how when Shepard asks her in London if she is afraid, she answers she couldn't understand the question.

[CrutchCricket]

Ah... yet another cycle that keeps repeating. Are we really going back to "it's just an AI lololol"? Check the sig, that's all I can say.

[DirtyPhoenix]

I like control, so no I don't think the cycles would repeat.

[SeptimusMagistos]

HagarIshay wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...
AIs are pretty clearly capable of both emotions and love. Really, unless you buy into the idea that there is any real difference between organics and synthetics this line of argument makes no sense.

The way ME3 showed synthetics (after the synthetics themselves telling us they don't have emotions) was unrealistic, lore-wise. Synthetics don't have emotions. They're not lesser or something to organics don't get me wrong, it's just a fact. At least in Mass Effect.

But anyway, you can look at AI Shep in any way you want. I prefer to look at him/her as Shepard's different form. Not really Shepard we know, but still has enough of his/her personality inside it.

That's not even remotely true, though.

Legion is quite clearly emotional as all heck. EDI is specifically designed to form preferences in a way that exactly corresponds with the human concept of liking or loving something. Even the Catalyst seems to have emotions.

I didn't fight for AI equality for three games only to be told that uploading Shepard's brain into a more powerful system somehow makes him any less of a person.

[Ageless Face]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...
That's not even remotely true, though.

Legion is quite clearly emotional as all heck. EDI is specifically designed to form preferences in a way that exactly corresponds with the human concept of liking or loving something. Even the Catalyst seems to have emotions.

I didn't fight for AI equality for three games only to be told that uploading Shepard's brain into a more powerful system somehow makes him any less of a person.

Like I said, lore-wise what we were shown is not realistic. We are constantly told from both synthetics and organics that AIs don't have emotions. EDI's design has a special design of prefrences to act similar to emotions, even those are not real emotions.

And I will say again, I don't see synthetics as less than organics. Lack of emotions doesn't change the fact AIs are capable of thinking, evolve, act. Do you see lack of emotions as being less of a person? There are humans that lack emotional center in their brain out of one reason or another, or have difficulty in acting on their emotions. Are they less of people because of it?

[SeptimusMagistos]

HagarIshay wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...
That's not even remotely true, though.

Legion is quite clearly emotional as all heck. EDI is specifically designed to form preferences in a way that exactly corresponds with the human concept of liking or loving something. Even the Catalyst seems to have emotions.

I didn't fight for AI equality for three games only to be told that uploading Shepard's brain into a more powerful system somehow makes him any less of a person.

Like I said, lore-wise what we were shown is not realistic. We are constantly told from both synthetics and organics that AIs don't have emotions. EDI's design has a special design of prefrences to act similar to emotions, even those are not real emotions.

And I will say again, I don't see synthetics as less than organics. Lack of emotions doesn't change the fact AIs are capable of thinking, evolve, act. Do you see lack of emotions as being less of a person? There are humans that lack emotional center in their brain out of one reason or another, or have difficulty in acting on their emotions. Are they less of people because of it?

What AI told you it didn't have emotions?

[Ageless Face]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...
What AI told you it didn't have emotions?

On top of my head, I remember EDI. Saying she doesn't have emotions but prefrences, and that not so funny joke about her trying to talk with Shepard about dating Joker but trying to find a way to do it through "logic" and not emotions.

[Seival]

I have some fan-fiction thoughts on the endings you might find interesting
http://social.biowar.../index/13610561

Modifié par Seival, 10 août 2012 - 04:45 .

[SeptimusMagistos]

HagarIshay wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...
What AI told you it didn't have emotions?

On top of my head, I remember EDI. Saying she doesn't have emotions but prefrences, and that not so funny joke about her trying to talk with Shepard about dating Joker but trying to find a way to do it through "logic" and not emotions.

In case you weren't paying attention, there turns out to be no practical difference between her 'preferences' and 'emotions'. She's pretty much in the process of recognizing she's capable of feeling, but she has nothing to really compare it to, so she's putting it into context that makes sense to her.

Legion's the same way, really. Apparently it has 'no data available' on why it decided to fix its hole with Commander Shepard's armor. You 're not supposed to take it literally.

[Ageless Face]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...
In case you weren't paying attention, there turns out to be no practical difference between her 'preferences' and 'emotions'. She's pretty much in the process of recognizing she's capable of feeling, but she has nothing to really compare it to, so she's putting it into context that makes sense to her.

Legion's the same way, really. Apparently it has 'no data available' on why it decided to fix its hole with Commander Shepard's armor. You 're not supposed to take it literally.

Then let me rephrase that. Synthetics don't have emotions like organics do.

Right at the ending in the last convo with her she says to you she feels alive. In the synthesis epilouge, she says she's alive. Like her previous statement was false. Her feelings, if they actually are, were non-existence, or were very weak compared to what she felt when she got synthesised. I take what synthetics have as their prefrences to/on/for a certain subject/object. EDI seems to find this more correct to what she has than emotions. I inclined to agree with her, as I said.

Is that better?  

Modifié par HagarIshay, 10 août 2012 - 05:15 .

[Seival]

pirate1802 wrote...

"Through her death, I was created", "Through my birth her thoughts were freed", She constantly refers herself as the "woman I was"... "The woman who gave up her life".. I think its pretty clear. Shepard's thoughts and memories were preserved, but thats pretty much it. The thing is not even organic. The Shepard we knew and played the trilogy with, is gone.

Saying Shepard is alive in control is like saying Shepard is alive in Synthesis because there's a little bit of her in everyone. <_<

Agree.

...By they way. Maybe in case of Synthesis Shepard's VI will become alive?

[SeptimusMagistos]

HagarIshay wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...
In case you weren't paying attention, there turns out to be no practical difference between her 'preferences' and 'emotions'. She's pretty much in the process of recognizing she's capable of feeling, but she has nothing to really compare it to, so she's putting it into context that makes sense to her.

Legion's the same way, really. Apparently it has 'no data available' on why it decided to fix its hole with Commander Shepard's armor. You 're not supposed to take it literally.

Then let me rephrase that. Synthetics don't have emotions like organics do.

Right at the ending in the last convo with her she says to you she feels alive. In the synthesis epilouge, she says she's alive. Like her previous statement was false. Her feelings, if they actually are, were non-existence, or were very weak compared to what she felt when she got synthesised. I take what synthetics have as their prefrences to/on/for a certain subject/object. EDI seems to find this more correct to what she has than emotions. I inclined to agree with her, as I said.

Is that better?  

It's alright, I guess. I just disagree. Every AI I talked to thorughout the games seemed to have real emotions, even when they had trouble recognizing them as such. Anything else would require me to belive that neurons are somehow capable of things circuits are not. That would break my SOD far too strongly.

[CrutchCricket]

Emotions are not necessary for intellect or indeed for sentience (or sapience) whichever you prefer. Thus their inclusion or absence is no grounds for dismissing either.

[SeptimusMagistos]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Emotions are not necessary for intellect or indeed for sentience (or sapience) whichever you prefer. Thus their inclusion or absence is no grounds for dismissing either.

True. I just saw nothing to indicate that synthetics didn't have emotions, nor do I see any reason to believe it would be so.

Hell, the whole geth revolution started over a question of whether a geth had a soul. Are you really telling me the answer is no?