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[Seival]

Davik Kang wrote...

Seival wrote...
Why do you consider keeping "IT" parody-oriented as a "dismiss"? Nice jokes are always welcome.

I haven't been the remotest bit snarky with you.  Why resort to this kind of petulance?

Seival wrote...
The failed mind-control attempt was shown in conversation with TIM. This is all we need to know about indoctrination in last minutes of the game. All we have to do after that - is to make moral choice to win (Control, Synthesis, Destroy), or to lose (Refusal), and see the consequences of our choice in the Epilogue. It's as simple as that.

It's really not as simple as that.  You are not advocating Control as a valid ending, you are trying to claim that alternate interpretations are not grounded in the narrative of the game.

The clues as to indoctrination being present in the final choice segment of the game are abundant.  To say that indoctrination is clearly not intended as an interpretation is unforgiveable for someone that has clearly been analysing the game for some time.

Before EC I made my choice based on assumptions. After EC my assumptions were fully confirmed, and so my choice. We have full scale epilogues now, not just blurry ending and "stargazer" scene. "IT" can't be used as a valid serious interpretation, because it based on placing Destroy (or Refusal) above all other endings.

"IT" conflicts with one of the main ending concepts. There is no "perfect ending". There are three different ways to win (Control, Synthesis, or Destroy), and one way to loose (Refusal). The final choice is really tough, and you have to make the moral decision.

"IT" is just an attempt to make one "disney ending" where Reapers are destoyed (but EDI and the Geth survived), and turn Control and Synthesis into a mission failures, which wasn't ever intended. So the "IT"ers aren't really different from "Retakers" and all other sort of haters. They want endings to be changed, which is inacceptable.

Modifié par Seival, 30 septembre 2012 - 07:00 .

[Davik Kang]

Seival wrote...
Before EC I made my choice based on assumptions. After EC my assumptions were fully confirmed, and so my choice. We have full scale epilogues now, not just blurry ending and "stargazer" scene. "IT" can't be used as a valid serious interpretation, because it based on placing Destroy (or Refusal) above all other endings.

"IT" conflicts with one of the main ending concepts. There is no "perfect ending". There are three different ways to win (Control, Synthesis, or Destroy), and one way to loose (Refusal). The final choice is really tough, and you have to make the moral decision.

"IT" is just an attempt to make one "disney ending" where Reapers are destoyed (but EDI and the Geth survived), and turn Control and Synthesis into a mission failures, which wasn't ever intended. So the "IT"ers aren't really different from "Retakers" and all other sort of haters. They want endings to be changed, which is inacceptable.

Well I somewhat agree with you.  There's something... angry about the things you post, which makes it seem like you're not really listening to anyone.  But maybe we're just misunderstanding you.

Anyway, on some points we agree.  I don't want endings changed, I think they are amazing.  I don't want a Disney ending.  And I don't think that everything after Harbinger flying away was an illusion.

I disagree with you about EC confirming your assumptions though.  And I also think IT is a totally valid interpretation.  I don't agree with it, but I wouldn't claim that it is evidentially wrong, and I don't think you have proven it to be mere fanfic either.  But I know we disagree fundamentally on that one, so I won't try to change your mind.

Modifié par Davik Kang, 30 septembre 2012 - 07:10 .

[Seival]

Also, I want to add that ending support threads were created for discussing something that happened in the story. Interpretations are welcome, but only the ones based on what the game itself shows us. Any "nothing really happened" assumptions are out of place here.

This particular thread is about Control ending as it was shown in the game. So please, stay on topic

[Bill Casey]

The ending is IT...

[Davik Kang]

Seival wrote...
Also, I want to add that ending support threads were created for discussing something that happened in the story. Interpretations are welcome, but only the ones based on what the game itself shows us. Any "nothing really happened" assumptions are out of place here.

There is a perfectly valid interpretation that the game did show us "nothing really happened" as you put it.  This isn't even controversial

I want to stand up for you dude, but you're making it really hard.  You're claiming that you get to decide what is or is not a valid interpretation of the ending.  When so many people see IT as valid, it's just childish to persist with the idea that discussions about it are out of place on thse fourms.

[Seival]

Davik Kang wrote...

Seival wrote...
Also, I want to add that ending support threads were created for discussing something that happened in the story. Interpretations are welcome, but only the ones based on what the game itself shows us. Any "nothing really happened" assumptions are out of place here.

There is a perfectly valid interpretation that the game did show us "nothing really happened" as you put it.  This isn't even controversial

I want to stand up for you dude, but you're making it really hard.  You're claiming that you get to decide what is or is not a valid interpretation of the ending.  When so many people see IT as valid, it's just childish to persist with the idea that discussions about it are out of place on thse fourms.

In this case BioWare would just move all fan-fiction threads from were they currently are to Story section. Because each fan-fiction can be called "an ending interpretation". But somehow, they prefer to keep those "interpretations" in separate section of the forum. So I think "nothing really happend IT" deserves the same treatment.

Again, let's not turn this thread into an "IT fest". This thread is about Control ending that happened in the story.

[Davik Kang]

Seival wrote...
In this case BioWare would just move all fan-fiction threads from were they currently are to Story section. Because each fan-fiction can be called "an ending interpretation". But somehow, they prefer to keep those "interpretations" in separate section of the forum. So I think "nothing really happend IT" deserves the same treatment.

Ok, but clearly Bioware don't think that, or they'd move IT threads into the FanFic section.  So even in the forums, they're suggesting that it's a valid interpretation.  Not "the truth", just an interpretation.

Anyway yeah, I'm trolling here really so I'll leave til I have something to say about Control.

[Seival]

"The Illusive Man was right after all". Some people still think this phrase means "accepting the entire TIM's way of thinking". But in fact the phrase means that TIM was right only about Control possibility, and about Control as the valid way to stop the Cycles forever...

...Control ending support is pure anti-"IT". That's why some too vocal "IT"ers visit this thread for some trolling regulary. They just can't believe that someone dare to think that Control is the valid ending and one of the ways to stop the Reapers. "IT"ers talk about respecting someone's opinion a lot, but show zero respect other opinions themselves. That's why I don't like to see them in any support thread. Especially, in Control ending support thread, which they hate the most.

[Davik Kang]

Seival wrote...

"The Illusive Man was right after all". Some people still think this phrase means "accepting the entire TIM's way of thinking". But in fact the phrase means that TIM was right only about Control possibility, and about Control as the valid way to stop the Cycles forever...

...Control ending support is pure anti-"IT". That's why some too vocal "IT"ers visit this thread for some trolling regulary. They just can't believe that someone dare to think that Control is the valid ending and one of the ways to stop the Reapers. "IT"ers talk about respecting someone's opinion a lot, but show zero respect other opinions themselves. That's why I don't like to see them in any support thread. Especially, in Control ending support thread, which they hate the most.

Yeah.  It definitely is anti-IT.  What I see as a waste is that if you guys didn't argue so much, you could actually help each other's theories, by pointing out and ironing out the inconsistencies in both.

By the way I think that "So the Illusive Man was right after all" was one of the most genius and awesome lines in the game, but unfortunately, for reasons that go comepletely against the Control ending!  So I probably shouldn't bring them up here.

[mass perfection]

What happens when galactic civilization surpasses the Reapers to the point where they have no use for Shepard or his control of the Reapers?

[CrutchCricket]

mass perfection wrote...

What happens when galactic civilization surpasses the Reapers to the point where they have no use for Shepard or his control of the Reapers?

It won't. Or more specifically, it can't. The reasons should be obvious.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 01 octobre 2012 - 01:29 .

[Seival]

mass perfection wrote...

What happens when galactic civilization surpasses the Reapers to the point where they have no use for Shepard or his control of the Reapers?

"The Reapers don't need any Control" is about Synthesis only. We can't say so about Destroy. Someone has to keep all those dead Reaper bodies under control, or dead Reaper bodies will start control everyone around them. We all know how exactly. ME2 derelict Reaper. "Even dead gods have a dreams". And I think it's obvious that in case of Destroy, the Leviathans will be the ones who will keep everything under control eventually.

[Seival]

Also, I believe there is only one technological path, and the Reapers are too far above everyone (except Leviathins). I think that inevitable Synthesis will occur long before Galactic Civilization would even try to invent "something new".

Modifié par Seival, 01 octobre 2012 - 10:57 .

[CroGamer002]

mass perfection wrote...

What happens when galactic civilization surpasses the Reapers to the point where they have no use for Shepard or his control of the Reapers?

If that happens, that would be millenniums after the end of ME3.

That's pretty long time to think on what may happen.

[Seival]

Mesina2 wrote...

mass perfection wrote...

What happens when galactic civilization surpasses the Reapers to the point where they have no use for Shepard or his control of the Reapers?

If that happens, that would be millenniums after the end of ME3.

That's pretty long time to think on what may happen.

...And pretty long time to find the final solution that will work without forcing everyone.

[CroGamer002]

Yeah, it's gonna be a problem for those to content with.

I mean, ME3 event would be ancient by the time that is a problem.

[Seival]

Mesina2 wrote...

Yeah, it's gonna be a problem for those to content with.

I mean, ME3 event would be ancient by the time that is a problem.

Indeed.

[CrutchCricket]

Mesina2 wrote...

Yeah, it's gonna be a problem for those to content with.

I mean, ME3 event would be ancient by the time that is a problem.

Organics will never catch up with the Control entity and the Reapers.

Reapers were static before because they were perfectly suited to their purpose (the harvest).

Now that purpose is gone/has changed.

Reapers will adapt and improve at exponetial rates and are already light year more advanced. Organics will need decades, maybe even centuries to even fully understand all the tech they have, to say nothing of rebuilding and recoving after the war.

There is no contest.

Edit: The geth are interesting exception though. It's not as certain with them. However the one slide already shows some type of interaction, maybe even cooperation with the Reapers. So it's unlikely they'll be a threat.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 03 octobre 2012 - 11:15 .

[CroGamer002]

Well, Leviathans managed to go that far.

It's possible they surpass Reapers one day.

Really, really long time to wait for that.



There is no the end of technology nor evolution. It will always continue.
Reapers being static is their weakness.
Though it will take millenniums for organics to exploit that weakness. And I am probably generous to say millenniums. Probably in million years they'll get even to the Reapers.


But, now I'm just speculating.

[Seival]

Mesina2 wrote...

Well, Leviathans managed to go that far.

It's possible they surpass Reapers one day.

Really, really long time to wait for that.



There is no the end of technology nor evolution. It will always continue.
Reapers being static is their weakness.
Though it will take millenniums for organics to exploit that weakness. And I am probably generous to say millenniums. Probably in million years they'll get even to the Reapers.


But, now I'm just speculating.

I think that Leviathans are even more advanced than the Reapers. All Reaper tech is based on Leviathans' tech after all.

Also, I have a feeling that Leviathans are not too upset about their current position. Like they intentionally "keep the low profile" to let the original Catalyst to continue (plus helping each subsequent Galactic Civilization to fight the Reapers at the same time) and see what happens in the end. Even through the Leviathans were defeated, they still live on and keep searching for The Solution. 

"There was no mistake. It still serves its purpose".

...The Leviathans are really look like "Space Druids".

[Engared]

Less space magic. So its slightly better than the synthesis ending. Still feels like a cop out.

[CrutchCricket]

Mesina2 wrote...

Well, Leviathans managed to go that far.

It's possible they surpass Reapers one day.

Really, really long time to wait for that.

What? Leviathans created the Reapers but they're in no way superior. If they were, they would've won.

And Harbinger is made of Leviathans.

And this is just the Reapers as they are in teh games. This isn't even accounting for all the things Commander can do

There is no contest.

Reapers being static is their weakness.

There is no reason to assume the Reapers will remain static. They were only static because they were prefectly suited to their task.

Like the shark, they've never had to evolve.

Their purpose is different now. They must adapt, upgrade and improve. And you can bet your RGB that's what they'll do.

[Seival]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Well, Leviathans managed to go that far.

It's possible they surpass Reapers one day.

Really, really long time to wait for that.

What? Leviathans created the Reapers but they're in no way superior. If they were, they would've won.

And Harbinger is made of Leviathans.

And this is just the Reapers as they are in teh games. This isn't even accounting for all the things Commander can do

There is no contest.

Reapers being static is their weakness.

There is no reason to assume the Reapers will remain static. They were only static because they were prefectly suited to their task.

Like the shark, they've never had to evolve.

Their purpose is different now. They must adapt, upgrade and improve. And you can bet your RGB that's what they'll do.

I think the original Catalyst defeated the Leviathans using some very dirty and unexpected tactics. And just defeated. It didn't manage to kill them all. Leviathans are keeping their population small enough to remain unnoticeable, but also keep living, waiting, and finding The Solution in their own ways. I believe the Leviathans are the most advanced, strong, and wise creatures in the galaxy.

[SovereignX6]

Awesome

[Seival]

Welcome

It's really nice to see more Control fans.